Another try at defining "Holocaust Denier."

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R.M. Schultz
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Another try at defining "Holocaust Denier."

#1

Post by R.M. Schultz » 15 Nov 2003, 07:59

In a fit of exasperation R.M. Schultz wrote:I now offer a new definition of "Holocaust Denier:"

If it walks like Scott Smith, talks like Scott Smith, and twists the issues like Scott Smith, it is a Holocaust Denier!

I am sick-to-death of your despicable rhetorical gambits and this will be my last post on this thread.
You know — now that Scott Smith cannot undermine our efforts, perhaps it is time to try to define "Holocaust Denier" again. Why don't we start again with the definition in “Denying History: Who Says The Holocaust Never Happened And Why Do They Say It?” by Michael Shermer & Alex Grobman (Berkeley, University of California Press, 2000). This book proposes the following definition:

A Holocaust Denier is anyone who asserts that fewer than six million Jews perished during WW2, and that gas chambers were never used to execute prisoners, and that there was no intention of genocide.

Good as this is, I would refine it thusly:

A Holocaust Denier is anyone who asserts at least three of the following propositions:
— That fewer than six million Jews perished during WW2
— That gas chambers were never used to execute prisoners
— That gas vans were never used to execute prisoners
— That there was no intention of genocide
— That the massive die-off of Jews was due to "wartime conditions"
— That Germany was "forced into war."
— That Allied "war crimes" are in any way on par with the Holocaust.


I think this definition is both flexible and precise. Do you have a better one?

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#2

Post by Karl » 15 Nov 2003, 08:13

First I don’t like the 6 million figure. I think it is accepted by most nowadays that the figure of total Jew deaths is about 4.5-5 million. Also, I would add denying everyone else that got murdered too: political prisoners, people of various religions, intelligentsia, masons, etc, etc…these other groups are roughly equal (or probably more) in number to the Jew figure. The Jews were the single largest group sure and they get special recognition for this but not one of these should put a shadow over or bring less meaning to the death of one member of the other groups…otherwise the list sounds good to me.

[I miss SS and the rest…]


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#3

Post by John W » 15 Nov 2003, 08:38

Karl: The reason I suspect so is that a majority of the deniers I have come across strike me as having some agenda against Jews.

Otherwise, the list looks good to me as well :)

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#4

Post by R.M. Schultz » 15 Nov 2003, 08:50

Karl wrote:First I don’t like the 6 million figure. I think it is accepted by most nowadays that the figure of total Jew deaths is about 4.5-5 million …
So, what if we set the bar at 4.5 million?

As for the others, except for the Gipsies, were they really targeted for extermination? Did the Nazis really want all masons, Jehova's Witnesses, homosexuals, communists, and Slavs dead, or did they wish to use them as slave labor not really caring if they lived or died? I would say that while the Jews and Gipsies were targeted for extermination the others were targeted for ruthless exploitation, much as Japan treated the Chinese.

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#5

Post by alf » 15 Nov 2003, 08:54

I don't have a better one, it is a very good definition.

I would add two extra points, a "denier"

(i), is one who also deliberately takes a thread off on a tangent to try and control the debate.

(2) Never answers the original question if it is about German atrocties but trys to use that situation to air their own "personal" views, quoting obscure and often irrelevant sources

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#6

Post by John W » 15 Nov 2003, 09:02

alf wrote:(2) Never answers the original question if it is about German atrocties but trys to use that situation to air their own "personal" views, quoting obscure and often irrelevant sources
or somehow equate it to something similar to Allied acts.

:oops: Already covered by Herr Schultz.

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#7

Post by Karl » 15 Nov 2003, 09:14

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Karl wrote:First I don’t like the 6 million figure. I think it is accepted by most nowadays that the figure of total Jew deaths is about 4.5-5 million …
So, what if we set the bar at 4.5 million?

As for the others, except for the Gipsies, were they really targeted for extermination? Did the Nazis really want all masons, Jehova's Witnesses, homosexuals, communists, and Slavs dead, or did they wish to use them as slave labor not really caring if they lived or died? I would say that while the Jews and Gipsies were targeted for extermination the others were targeted for ruthless exploitation, much as Japan treated the Chinese.
I do not have the ‘everyone else’ figures. Unless someone beats me, I'll check the library next week.

We must also define genocide:
Oxford concise says…
‘the mass extermination of human beings, esp. of a particular race or nation.’

So if we take ‘genocide’ in terms of victims, I guess we can just focus on the Jews. But what is a proper definition of holocaust?

Same dictionary says that holocaust means:
‘1) a case of large scale destruction, esp. by fire or nuclear war. 2) the mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis 1941-45. 3) a sacrifice wholly consumed by fire.’

Again, exclusively Jews. I want to contest that so give me some time to check the other numbers and cause of deaths.

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#8

Post by R.M. Schultz » 15 Nov 2003, 09:41

Karl wrote:We must also define genocide: Oxford concise says… ‘the mass extermination of human beings, esp. of a particular race or nation.’
This is a serviceable definition, but we should also differentiate it from Democide, the killing of a non-biological group (e.g. political, religious, economic, residency). Thus, the Soviet action against the Kulaks was Democide, as was the Nazi persecution of communists, while the Nazi action against the "Jewish Race" was genocide.

Holocaust Deniers almost never deny the Nazi Democide of Communists, and they love to play up the Soviet Democide against the Kulaks, or the Democidal Allied strategic bombing campaign (Democide because it was directed against residents of a particular area), it is the racist Nazi Genocide they waffle on.
Karl wrote:But what is a proper definition of holocaust? …
"The mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis 1941-45" is exactly what we are referring to in the phrase "Holocaust Denier."

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#9

Post by Karl » 15 Nov 2003, 12:38

R.M. Schultz wrote:"The mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis 1941-45" is exactly what we are referring to in the phrase "Holocaust Denier."
Well, it is your thread and if that is the accepted definition of the issue for all it saves me a trip. Jews it is.

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holocaust denier definition

#10

Post by RACPISA » 15 Nov 2003, 18:15

I totally agree with what Karl said about how many historians now believe that the number of Jews who died is between 4.5-5 million. Raoul Hilberg himself estimated that the number was around 5 million, so according to your definition, he would be a Holocaust denier. :lol:
Maybe you could say that a denier says that the number of Jews who died was far far below 6 million, like saying only 10,000 Jews died.
That Allied "war crimes" are in any way on par with the Holocaust.
I also have a little bit of a problem with this one. Yes, the Allies didn't try to exterminate the Germans or the Japanese, but they did do some very morally questionable things like the atomic bomb and the firebombing of Dresden. I agree that in terms of sheer numbers, the Holocaust was worse, but I don't think that Allied war crimes should be overshadowed or ignored because there was still large amounts of human pain and suffering.[/u]

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#11

Post by michael mills » 16 Nov 2003, 03:48

As was to be expected, R M Schultz's "definition" is highly tendentious, and crafted so as to obtain the result he wants.

Its purpose is quite patently to delegitimise any attempt to critique any one of the suite of historiographical statements that constitute "The Holocaust".

Certain of those statements are more soundly based than others. For example, the statement that "prisoners were killed in gas chambers" is for all practical purposes unassailable, given the evidence available, including the documented process by which homicidal gas chambers were developed.

Accordingly, any person who asserts that "gas chambers were never used (by German Government agencies) for the execution of prisoners" is not making a reasonable and suppoertable statement, and can be assumed to have a particular political or ideological agenda.

However, it is quite legitimate to dispute whether a particular building stated to have been used as a homicidal gas-chamber was in fact so used, provided that the evidence is properly analysed. For example, are we obliged to accept the claim that the documented "Entwesungskammer" at Posen was used homicidally, simply because there were rumours during the war that it was being so used? There is no credible evidence for such use, and the claims are not compatible with what we do know about the development of homicidal gas chambers. Nevertheless, I have seen television documentaries which show what looks like a garage and claim that it was the first homicidal gas-chamber, situated in Posen.

To dispute the above claim cannot honestly be labelled "denial".

The statement that "prisoners were killed in gas vans" is also pretty well unassailable, given the evidence for their use and development. However, it is clear that their use was greatly exaggerated in wartime accounts, particularly in accounts emanating from Soviet sources, and that many German special-purpose vehicles were misidentified as homicidal gas-vans. Therefore to dispute the veracity of a particular allegation of the use of a homicidal gas-van is not in itself "denial", depending on the evidence.

The other criteria advanced by R M Schultz are far more dodgy.

For example, what about the following statement:

"German Government aims on 3 September 1939, when Britain and France declared war on it, did not include genocide (in the way defined by R M Schultz), although they may have encompassed "democide" (again as defined by R M Schultz) on a small scale (ie on nowhere near the scale achieved in the Soviet Union by then). However, due to wartime conditions, the German Government resorted to measures that eventually reached genocidal dimensions. Thus, the original German aim to deport Europe's Jews to Madagascar was thwarted by the failure to achieve a negotiated peace with Britain, and the next plan, to deport the Jews to reservations in the Soviet Union, could not be implemented due to the failure to defeat that country. Thus, the German Government resorted to "genocidal" measures such as the extermination of whole communities, rather than the pre-planned limited destruction of certain categories of Jews believed to be the main supporters of the Communist system."

According to R M Schultz's criteria, the above statement would meet two of the three conditions for being labelled "denial".

Take also the proposition that Germany was "forced into war". While that proposition could not be sustained in precisely that form, it is legitimate to speculate on what would have happend if Poland had acceded to the German demands made at the end of 1938, namely for Danzig to be allowed to reunite with the German Reich, and for an extraterritorial right of access to be granted linking East Prussia to Germany proper, with a similar right of access for Poland to its port at Gdynia, and the right to continue using Danzig as a free port.

Under that scenario, there would have been no German-Polish war, and therefore no casus belli for Britain and France. It is therefore quite reasonable to argue that, if Britain had not given Poland its "blank cheque", which encouraged Poland to refuse any German demand for border revisions, there would most probably have been no outbreak of war in 1939.

A number of posters have made reservations about the criterion relating to the six-million figure. I think that RACPISA's suggestion is the most helpful, namely that the criterion should relate to the postulation of an unacceptably low number of victims. Thus, it could reasonably be said that the statement "the number of European Jews who perished as a result of German actions was in the millions", is unassailable, and that to dispute it indicates a political and/or ideological bias.

As for the last criterion, the equation of Allied "war crimes" with the "Holocaust", is highly tendentious to the extent that it is not made clear exactly what is meant by "Allied" and "war crimes". If the intention is to limit the scope of comparison to the actions of the Western Allies, and to acts committed specifically within the timeframe 1939-45, then obviously the atrocities committed by Germany greatly exceed those committed by its opponents. But that does not invalidate a comparison of German atrocities committed between 1939 and 1945 with those perpetrated by, say, the Soviet Government over a much wider time-frame.

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#12

Post by Grand Admiral » 16 Nov 2003, 04:22

One reason I think Holocaust deniers have a problem with...well...the Holocaust is that they have trouble wrapping their minds around that figure--6 million. That's three states of Virginia right there.

I've always thought that a Holocaust denier was the way he/she is because he/she likes and respects the Nazi's so much as to blind to their atrocious crimes.

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#13

Post by Erik » 16 Nov 2003, 06:18

In a fit of exasperation R.M. Schultz wrote:
I now offer a new definition of "Holocaust Denier:"

If it walks like Scott Smith, talks like Scott Smith, and twists the issues like Scott Smith, it is a Holocaust Denier!

I am sick-to-death of your despicable rhetorical gambits and this will be my last post on this thread.

You know — now that Scott Smith cannot undermine our efforts, perhaps it is time to try to define "Holocaust Denier" again.

A Holocaust denier is a person who undermines your efforts to twist the issues to his disadvantage.

R.M.Schultz has some predecessors in his efforts to “twist again”.

First of all, the “bull” of it:
To enter into a history of Bulls and Briefs would require a long and elaborate monograph, so we must be content to remind ourselves that the term bulla, which in classical Latin meant a water-bubble, a bubble then came to mean a boss of metal, such as the knob upon a door. (By transference it also implied a certain kind of amulet, generally made of gold, which was worn upon the neck, especially by noble youths). Hence in course of time the word bulla indicated the leaden seals by which Papal (and even royal) documents were authenticated, and by an easy transition we recognize that towards the end of the twelfth century a Bull is the document itself. Naturally very many kinds of edicts are issued from the Cancellaria, but a Bull is an instrument of especial weight and importance, and it differs both in form and detail from constitutions, encyclicals, briefs, decrees, privileges, and rescripts. It should be remarked, however, that the term Bull has conveniently been used to denote all these, especially if they are Papal letters of any early date. By the fifteenth century clearer distinctions were insisted upon and maintained.
………..

It has been necessarily thus briefly to review this important series of Papal documents to show that the famous Bull Summis desiderantes affectibus, 9 December, 1484, which Innocent VIII addressed to the authors of the Malleus Maleficarum, is no isolated and extraordinary document, but merely one in the long and important record of Papal utterances. although at the same time it is of the greatest importance and supremely authoritative. It has, however, been very frequently asserted, not only be prejudiced and unscrupulous chroniclers, but also by scholars of standing and repute, that this Bull of Innocent VIII, if not, as many appear to suppose, actually the prime cause and origin of the crusade against witches, at any rate gave the prosecution and energizing power and an authority which hitherto they had not, and which save for this Bull they could not ever have, commanded and possessed.
………..

Without exception non-Catholic historians have either in no measured language denounced or else with sorrow deplored the Bull of Innocent VIII as a most pernicious and unhappy document, a perpetual and irrevocable manifesto of the unchanged and unchangeable mind of the Papacy. From this point of view they are entirely justified, and their attitude is undeniably logical and right. The Summis desideranted affectibus is either a dogmatic exposition by Christ's Vicar upon earth or it is altogether abominable.
That (the last paragraph) is how the revisionists like to twist the issues. They don’t know what a Papal Bull is.
We may now consider the exact force of the Apostolic Bull Summis desiderantes affectibus issed on 9 December, 1484, by Innocent VIII to Fr. Henry Kramer and Fr. James Sprenger.
In the first place, it is superflous to say that no Bull would have been published without the utmost deliberation, long considering of phrases, and above all earnest prayer. This document of Pope Innocent commences with the set grave formula of a Bull of the greatest weight and solemnity. “Innocentius Episcopus Seruus seruorum Dei ad perpetuam rei memoriam.” It draws to its conclusion with no brief and succinct prohibitory clauses but with a solemn measured period: “Non obstantibus praemissis ac constitutionibus et ordinationibus Apostolicis contrariis quibuscunque. . . .” The noble and momentous sentences are built up word by word, beat by beat, ever growing more and more authoritative, more and more judicial, until they culminate in the minatory and imprecatory clauses which are so impressive, so definite, that no loophole is left for escape, no turn for evasion. “Nulli ergo omnino hominum liceat hanc paganim nostrae declarationis extentionis concessionis et mandati infringere uel ei ausu temeraris contrarie Si qui autem attentate praesumpserit indignationem omnipotentis Dei ac beatorum Petri et Pauli Apostolorum eius se nouerit incursurum.” If any man shall presume to go against the tenor let him know that therein he will bring down upon himself the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
Could words weightier be found?
(Emphasis added.)

Mark the words, twisters of the issues!

“Could words weightier be found?”

Well, just wait!
It belongs to that class of ex cathedra utterances “for which infallibility is claimed on the ground, not indeed of the terms of the Vatican definition, but of the constant practice of the Holy See, the consentient teaching of the theologians, as well as the clearest deductions of the principles of faith.” Accordingly the opinion of a person who rashly impugns this Bull is manifestly to be gravely censures as erronea, sapiens haeresim, captiosa, subuersiua hierarchiae; erroneous, savouring of heresy, captious, subversive of the hierarchy.
(Emphasis added.)


How do the twisters of the issues go about their abominable business?

Compare (no names!) with the “pitch of annoyance” of a certain “Fr. Thurston”:
The intimate discussions on miracles, spiritual graces and physical phenomena, which above all require faith, reverence, sympathy, tact and understanding, are conducted with a roughness and a rudeness infinitely regrettable. What is worse, in every case Catholic tradition and loyal Catholic feeling are thrust to one side; the note of scepticism, of modernism, and even of rationalism is arrogantly dominant. Tender miracles of healing wrought at some old sanctuary, the records of some hidden life of holiness secretly lived amongst us in the cloister or the home, these things seem to provoke Fr. Thurston to such a pitch of annoyance that he cannot refrain from venting his utmost spleen. The obsession is certainly morbid.
Your remember the “Krema sausage”, don’t you?

Read:
I have heard upon good authority that the ecclesiastical superiors took exception to such a publication. I may, of course, be wrong, and there can be no question that there is room for a different point of view, but I cannot divest my mind of the idea that the exaggerated rationalization of mystical phenomena conspicuous in the series of articles I have just considered may be by no means unwelcome to the Father of Lies. It really plays into his hands: first, because it makes the Church ridiculous by creating the impression that her mystics, particularly friars and nuns, are for the most part sickly hysterical subjects, deceivers and deceived, who would be fit inmates of Bedlam; that many of her most reverend shrines, Limpias, Campocavallo, and the sanctuaries of Naples, are frauds and conscious imposture; and, secondly, because it condemns and brings into ridicule that note of holiness which theologians declare is one of the distinctive marks of the true Church.
Thank God for our exception-taking Guardians!

Savour the following, an appreciation of a twister-of- the-issues worthy to be written by the thread-starter himself!
His bias evidently makes him incapable of dealing impartially with any historical fact, and even a sound and generally accepted theory would gain nothing by the adherence of so prejudiced an advocate. It has seemed worth while to utter a word of caution regarding his extraordinary output, and especially in our present connexion with reference to the article upon “Witchcraft,” which appears to me so little qualified to furnish the guidance readers may require in this difficult subject, and which by its inclusion in a standard work of reference might be deemed trustworthy and reliable.
Compare with our worthy Innocent of TRHF and his efforts:
It is very certain then that the Bull of Innocent VIII, Summis desiderantes affectibus, was at least a document of the highest authority, and that the Pontiff herein clearly intended to set forth dogmatic facts, although this can be distinguished from the defining of a dogma. A dogmatic fact is not indeed a doctrine of revelation, but it is so intimately connected with a revealed doctrine that it would be impossible to deny the dogmatic fact without contradicting or seriously impugning the dogma. It would not be very difficult to show that any denial of the teaching of Pope Innocent VIII must traverse the Gospel accounts of demoniacs, the casting out of devils by Our Saviour, and His Divine words upon the activities of evil spirits.
(emphasis added).

“Casting out of devils”, indeed!
Witches were the bane of all social order; they injured not only persons but property. They were, in fact, as has previously been emphasized, the active members of a vast revolutionary body, a conspiracy against civilization. Any other save the most thorough measures must have been unavailing; worse, they must have but fanned the flame.
R.M.Schultz will most assuredly agree beforehand, that the ensuing efforts of the readers of TRHF to define “the bane of all social order”, the “conspiracy against civilization”, will find a future evaluation like the following, accorded your predecessors:
We must approach this great work - admirable in spite of its triffling blemishes - with open minds and grave intent; if we duly consider the world of confusion, of Bolshevism, of anarchy and licentiousness all around to-day, it should be an easy task for us to picture the difficulties, the hideous dangers with which Henry Kramer and James Sprenger were called to combat and to cope; we must be prepared to discount certain plain faults, certain awkwardnesses, certain roughness and even severities; and then shall we be in a position dispassionately and calmy to pronounce opinion upon the value and the merit of this famouse treatise.

The interest, then, lies in the subject-matter. And from this point of view the Malleus Maleficarum is one of the most pregnant and most interesting books I know in the library of its kind - a kind which, as it deals with eternal things, the eternal conflict of good and evil, must eternally capture the attention of all men who think, all who see, or are endeavouring to see, reality beyond the accidents of matter, time, and space.
And that is only the FOREWORD!

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mm00c.html

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#14

Post by Grand Admiral » 16 Nov 2003, 06:39

I'm really not sure what all that was about, I'm almost certain someone just got totally owned. 8O

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#15

Post by David Thompson » 16 Nov 2003, 06:48

Erik -- I've read the Malleus Malificarum too, but so what? What does a medieval treatise on the investigation of witchcraft have to do with the holocaust and war crimes?
Last edited by David Thompson on 16 Nov 2003, 06:58, edited 1 time in total.

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