nazi saucers

[frankendreads]

does anybody know f any info on this subject
there has been much specualtion on it
but nothing i have found so far has a good case 4 or against this
any info would help
(one of many current projets)
thanks
:twisted:

[IAR80]

Hmm, this subject is avoided by many because of its implications, however, there are some accounts of sightings from american pilots and cases of bembers being shot down by passing lights. I don't have any facts aviable, but I'll search. Also there are some documents of radical natzi aircraft designs and in the '50s a american researcher managed to manipulate gravity with mag fields and make a chair float, even saw it on Discovery. But this is speculation, just like space flight was 100 years ago.
I'll post back...

[IAR80]

just bumped into this, hell knows how I wound up with it...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:46:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:44:13 -0400
Subject: Arnold, Roswell and US/Nazi/Japanese Tech


Hi List,

There are 'some suspicions' that there might be a connection
between the Arnold sighting, the Roswell incident and the US
military's use of new or self developed technology, or captured
from the Nazis and/or Japanese after the war.

Much of this hidden info. is likely to be revealed when
reviewing US military documents that nowadays - many years after
the early post-war area - are being declassified, and also
available on The Web.

In this connection I came across some articles regarding the
Roswell incident on the web:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/popmech ... STSPM.html

This article seems to be written by Mr. Jim Wilson in 1997; a PM
(Popular Mechanics) journalist.

I don't know whether any of you have read or heard about this
article and the author before, and I don't know anything about
the author's credibility and objectivity - just read it and make
your own conclusion about it.

In this article he's mentioning the following (regarding
the Roswell incident):


"Suspecting there was more to the Roswell story, Popular
Mechanics undertook its own investigation to learn if anything
new had emerged in this 50- year-old techno-mystery."

"After interviewing witnesses who had seen and handled
crash-site debris, and reviewing documents that were still
classified when the GAO undertook its investigation, we have
concluded that there really was a crashed disc, dead bodies and
a secret that could have been politically deadly to presidents
Harry S. Truman and Dwight D. Eisenhower."

Since mid-May, America had been in the grips of what historians
would later call the great UFO craze of 1947. By some counts, as
many as 800 sightings of strange objects were reported. At the
bars, lunch counters and dinner tables in Roswell, airmen retold
stories of mysterious "kraut balls" and "foo fighters" that had
played tag with bombers and fighters as they flew missions over
Europe and the Pacific."

"There is one more important, but often overlooked, historic
fact to keep in mind. In the years immediately after the war,
the term 'flying disc' did not necessarily mean a flying machine
from another planet."

"Randle's claims were largely based on a series of interviews
that he had conducted with a former U.S. Army
counterintelligence agent who at various times has been
identified as either Frank McKenzie or Joseph Osborne. Now, as I
spoke with this former spy in the back dining room of Roswell's
Sally Port Restaurant, I wasn't quite sure he could be trusted.
People I do trust had vouched for him. He showed me documents
that confirmed he had been assigned to the 509th. At the time of
the Roswell incident, he had been a civilian employee assigned
to intelligence duties. It was a job that could have givenhim
access to the impact site."

"At that point, I decided to wrap up the interview by asking the
spy an innocuous question: "What do you think of the crash-site
dioramas in the UFO museums?" "They got it wrong. It wasn't
round. It was heel-shaped," he said, tracing a pattern with his
finger. With my curiosity rekindled, because the city's two UFO
museums both depicted circular craft, I slid my notebook across
the table and asked him to sketch what he allegedly saw. The spy
then drew side, top and bottom views of what I immediately
recognized as a wingless lifting-body airframe. It was a dead
ringer for the X-38, which NASA and the U.S. Air Force are
planning to use as a mini-space plane."

"So, I decided to give the spy one last test, and asked, "Are
these heatshield tiles?" "No," he said, ignoring the bait. "They
made it invisible to radar." I signaled the waitress for another
round of drinks, sat back and listened as the spy his real name
is Frank J. Kaufmann told me how he helped to engineer the
"great Roswell coverup."

"Acting on what he said were orders from Brig. Gen. Martin
Scanlan of the Army's Air Defense Command (or 'Temple'; AWS)
Kaufmann told me he returned to Roswell. Here, he roused the
base commander Col. William Blanchard and intelligence officer
Marcel. With a small contingent of men, they drove north through
the sleeping city and onto what is now Route 285 north. Near
mile marker 132, they turned off the road and began driving
across the desert, stopping from time to time to cut the
barbed-wire fencing. Around 3 am, they found a heel-shaped craft
measuring about 25 ft. long and 12 ft. wide embedded in a cliff.

It was split open. One of its four small passengers was thrown
clear. Another was partially out of the craft. Two more were
inside. All were dead, their bodies intact and unburned.
Kaufmann said he watched as a crew from the airfield worked
feverishly beneath searchlights to load the fractured craft and
bodies aboard a flatbed truck before dawn. Meanwhile, a second
team hastily created two diversionary sites to confuse the
curious."

"As the Sun boiled up from the east, the tarpaulin-covered Army
truck rolled slowly south through downtown Roswell. Unnoticed by
residents who had long ago grown used to the sight of military
traffic, it made its way past the base gates and into a hangar,
which was promptly surrounded by armed guards. Before evening,
the wreckage and bodies were loaded aboard a military transport
and flown first to Fort Worth, Texas, and then on to Wright
Field in Ohio"

"It is a compelling story, spiced with some verifiable
information, but upon closer examination, the former spy's tale
is fraught with inconsistencies. The most obvious of these being
a lack of burned wreckage or charred bodies at a crash that
allegedly produced suf-ficient illumination to alert residents
miles away. It is also filled with factual errors, says Stanton
T. Friedman. A University of Chicago-trained nuclear physicist,
he was the first civilian to investigate the Roswell incident"

"I was all but ready to trash Kaufmann's story when a nearly
foot-thick package of documents obtained via Freedom of
Information Act requests arrived on my desk. As I read their
badly photocopied pages, I came to realize that my judgment of
Kaufmann's story might have been overly hasty. The more I read,
the more credible Kaufmann's tale--except for his conclusion
about extraterrestrials--became."

"Using key words and technical descriptions in the Silver Bug
report, PM was able to trace the origin of these remarkable
aircraft to Germany. And here, in half-century-old intelligence
files stamped "secret," we learned that the U.S. government had
mounted a massive search for engineers and scientists who had
worked on the so-called German saucer project.

Contrary to UFO literature, which claims the Germans were
attempting to reverse-engineer a crashed alien vehicle of their
own, these documents show a more practical reason for interest
in saucers: They could take off without runways. Months of
around-the-clock bombing by the allies had reduced German
runways to rubble. The Third Reich's only hope of using its
newly perfected jet-engine propulsion system to regain air
superiority would be to install it in a
vertical-takeoff-and-landing (VTOL) aircraft."

"The documents also tell of Army intelligence officers combing
Europe for two brothers,

Walter and Reimar Horten.

Trained as pilots and engineers, they had close connections to
the Reich's high command. The information provided to Army
intelligence said they were believed to have persuaded German
leaders to construct a fleet of saucer-shaped bombers. U.S.
military historians acknowledge that the Horten brothers built
and flew prototypes of circular and flying- wing aircraft. But
they dismiss these craft as aeronautical curiosities with no
military value. Initially, PM discounted a possible connection
between the Horten brothers and Roswell. We began to think
differently after we obtained a copy of a long-secret field
report from an American intelligence officer stationed in
Germany. In response for a service-wide request for information
about the Horten brothers, he had apparently looked into the
most secret military files. There he discovered, and duly
reported to his superiors, that the Horten brothers already had
been found. "Paperclip records further show that the men were
released by the U.K. for exploitation and allocated to the U.S.
[on] 15 November 1946," the officer's report said."

"Operation Paperclip" was the code name for one of the Second
World War's most secret and ethically controversial projects.
Its mission was to put former Nazi scientists and engineers on
the U.S. payroll. The American public knew the secret of Los
Alamos weeks after the first atomic bomb exploded. They would
not be told of Paperclip until after men landed on the Moon, an
event made possible by Paperclip rocket scientists.

The reason for keeping Paperclip secret was that the
laboratories at which many of the former German scientists had
worked were also Nazi slave-labor and death camps. The fact the
Nazis had technology that American engineers could not duplicate
was deemed too harsh a message for a nation that had gone to war
for a higher moral purpose."

"Probing further into the fate of the Horten brothers, PM
learned that just prior to their capture they had been working
on the design for a new generation of circular-shaped
vertical-takeoff aircraft, with specifications much like those
described in the Silver Bug report. Other records indicate that
after the war, models of the Horten's designs--possibly
constructed by the brothers themselves--were tested in the wind
tunnel at Wright Field, now Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
This is the same base to which the wreckage of the Roswell crash
was finally transported."

"The Air Force acknowledges the Germans were working on a
flying-disc craft, but says it was inherently unstable.
Officials point to the failed Avro flying car built for the Army
and a deteriorating plywood Horten wing, both on display in
museums. Declassified records obtained by PM in the course of
its investigation suggest that these marginally performing craft
were, in fact, shills intended to disguise the existence of more
formidable flying machines. One of the most potent of these
flying discs was developed under a secret program called Project
Pye Wacket. Its objective was to design a 5-ft.-dia.
liquid-fueled missile launch platform to protect U.S. bombers
penetrating Soviet airspace."

"In the end, the military would select conventionally shaped
planes and missiles. As for the Horten flying disc that the
Reich had hoped would turn the tide of battle, patent rights to
a remarkably similar craft configured to carry "passengers"
would be assigned to the Lockheed aircraft company."

"Despite this information, the possibility that the object that
crashed at Roswell was in fact one of the Horten brothers'
creations misses the mark on two important details. The craft
that Kaufmann claims to have helped recover was not round, but
as his sketches showed, a lifting body. Also, he claims there
was no fire damage, a virtual impossibility in the crash of a
jet-powered aircraft."

"PM suspects the craft that crashed at Roswell will eventually
be identified as either a U.S. attempt to re-engineer a
second-generation Fugo, or a hybrid craft which uses both Fugo
lifting technology and a Horten-inspired lifting body. In either
case, Japanese engineers and pilots brought to the U.S. after
the war to work on the project could have been the dead "alien"
bodies recovered at the
crash site."

In this context, the following URLs are also
referred to:

A)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/popmech ... portp.html

i.e., the following is cut from the report Joint ATIC-WADC
Report on Project Silver Bug, 1955:


"The subject of this report deals with a proposal for a new
type aircraft by one of Canada's most progressive members of the
aircraft industry, AVRO Aircraft, Limited, a member of the
Hawker-Siddley Group. This project should in no way be
associated with any science fiction or "Flying Saucer" stories
because of its external appearance. The configuration was a
result of an engineering investigation into the solution of a
particular problem."

- "The proposal is for the design of a supersonic research
aircraft having a circular planform and VTO characteristics. One
version provides for the use of several conventional axial-flow
engines, while the ultimate aircraft configuration utilizes a
new radial-flow type engine. Another unusual feature of this
proposal is that the control of the aircraft is accomplished by
selective direction of the exhaust gases which eliminates the
necessity of conventional aerodynamic control surfaces."

- " There is a USAF requirement to develop means of operation
from dispersed bases. This requirement stems from the growing
and possibly catastrophic vulnerability of conventional air
bases. The major feature of conventional air bases is the
runway, which has grown wider, thicker, and longer as aircraft
have become heavier and faster. The operational necessity of
runways leads to concentrations of aircraft which have become
critical targets. The logical approach to dispersed base
operation would then appear to be toward reducing the length of
runways or to their total elimination. Numerous schemes have
been proposed, investigated, and some developed to reduce the
take-off distance of aircraft. Among them are water ejection,
after-burning, and RATO. Drag chutes and methods of thrust
reversal have been developed for reducing landing requirements.
Attempts to eliminate runways completely have resulted in
helicopters, convertiplanes and what is known as VTO aircraft."

- "There are two general types of VTO aircraft - "tail-sitters"
and "flat-risers." A flat-riser takes off in the vertical
direction in a normal horizontal flight attitude, while the
tail-sitter takes off vertically from a position which is 90
degrees to a normal level horizontal flight attitude. Examples
of tail-sitters are the United States Navy projects with
Lockheed and Convair which utilize a turboprop power plant, and
the USAF project with Ryan Aeronautical Corporation utilizing
turbojet power plants. Examples of the flat-riser are the
Rolls-Royce "Flying Bedstead" and the Bell VTO aircraft. The
basic design problem associated with any aircraft of this type
becomes one of achieving in a single vehicle VTO and military
performance capabilities. A possible solution to this problem
has been proposed by A. V. Roe, Canada, Limited, in the form of
their Project Y2
(Secret)."

- "The cockpit is located at the center of the aircraft with
the orientation of the cockpit determining the fore and after
center- line of the aircraft as well as the normal direction of
forward flight. The airframe, fuel cells, and the gas turbine
power plant encircle the cockpit. (See Figs 3 and 4.) This
aircraft is designed for vertical take-off and landings while in
the horizontal flight attitude, i.e., a "flat-riser". Since this
aircraft rises vertically from a horizontal position, it does
not require a landing gear of auxiliary landing devices. The
flat-riser flight take-off technique, the elimination of the
landing gear and auxiliary landing devices, are brought about by
the peripheral exhaust which produces a "powerful ground cushion
effect" (Fig 5). This is one of the fundamentals upon which this
new radical aircraft design is based."

B)

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v01/rnd01_05.shtml

i.e., the following is cut from this report, regarding Frank
Kaufman's story:

"When the report of a crashed UFO came from Brigardier General
Martin Scanlan ('Temple'; AWS) on July 4, 1947, Kaufman and his
team of agents went out to the crash site, which he described as
"very rough country, no roads at all." They found the UFO,
shaped like a man's shoe heel, crashed into the wall of an
arroyo. The vehicle was split open, and the team found four dead
aliens... and one that was still alive!"

-Kaufman said the UFO was loaded onto a flatbed truck, brought
back to the base, and stored in Hangar 84, which had an armed
M.P. platoon all around it. The four dead aliens were laid out
on a tarpaulin before the ambulance took them to the base
hospital for the autopsy."

The overall conclusion which can be drawn from these articles is
that:

The whole thing seems to deal with the US military's 'frenetic
actions' involved in hiding new and recovered/captured aircraft
technology - something which is understandable, especially as
regards the Cold War area, and the "arms/tech. race" between
Soviet and USA/Allies in those days.

Regarding people's thoughts of 'intergalactic invasions' in
connection with these flying saucer/disc sightings in 1947
(e.g., Maj. Marcel, and possibly also Gen.Ramey), this is
possibly connected with Orson Welles' radio performance of H.G.
Wells' "War of the Worlds", involving invasions from Mars, which
took place some 10 years earlier, i.e.:

http://www.blackstoneaudio.com/html/books/b1513.html

Mr. F.Kaufmann has described (at least) two significantly
different discs at the Roswell crash site: The one presented for
Mr. Randle and Schmitt, and the other for PM's Mr.Wilson.

From the present interpretations of the Ramey message (as
already presented for The List) this _seems_ to indicate that
the disc described for Mr. Wilson might be correct, as he was
also mentioning the craft ('crash/disc/disk), 4 small passengers
('4 ... victims'), two/three 'sites' ('site one/two') and a
contingent ('extra powers') of men. (The word 'disc', or 'flying
saucer', was probably used by the military in those days to
indicate a craft having circular planform; a 'disk' could
indicate both circular and other planforms, like today's
computer disk.)

Four 'secret', American, military projects are mentioned:

1. Project Silver Bug; re. design proposals for disc-shaped,
or radical, aircraft; a supersonic aircraft having a circular
planform (1955).

2. Project Paperclip; the code name for one of the Second
World War's most secret and ethically controversial projects.
Its mission was to put former Nazi scientists and engineers on
the U.S. payroll

3. Project Project Mogul; re. a balloon that was carrying
instruments to detect Soviet nuclear tests.

4. Project Pye Wacket; the objective was to design a
5-ft.-dia. liquid-fueled missile launch platform to protect U.S.
bombers penetrating Soviet airspace.

The WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, or Wright Field, OHIO, is
mentioned in connection with the following 'incidents':

* Wind tunnel tests of circular-shaped, VTOL aircraft

* Models of the Horten's designs--possibly constructed by the
brothers themselves--were tested in the wind tunnel at Wright
Field, now Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

* The wreckage and bodies from the Roswell crash was finally
transported to this base

* A declassified Air Force briefing paper titled "Report On
Project Silver Bug." It was prepared by the Joint Air Technical
Intelligence Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in 1955

i.e., really 'interesting things' were going on at this base in
those days.

There were _proposed_ developments of aircraft having 'circular
planform' and VTO (Vertical Take-Off and Landing)
characteristics in 1955 (mentioned 'Flying Disc').

The reason we don't see these craft today (at least not very
often; and possibly - and correctly - observed as UFOs!) might
be because of problems with instability, expensive to produce,
and/or that they _are_ being used, but exist only as
experimental planes, used by the military for research and
'spying'/'special' missions only.

The inherent craft instability may - to an acceptable degree -
have been solved. (Many of the aircarft today are inherently
unstable, e.g., JAS Gripen, but this is compensated for
automatically by using many pressure sensors located on the
craft, and aided by powerful computers on board the plane to
help controlling and piloting.)

According to the article's contents, it seems (possibly correct
- as proposed by many) that, in connection with the Roswell
incident, we might actually be dealing with 'aliens', i.e., not
exactley ETs, but rather Japanese ('kamikaze') test pilots!
(They were often described as being 'small' - having 'children's
height' - and having Oriental features.)

In adition, the use of 'alien tech.' could also mean the capture
and use of Nazi and/or Japanese technologies. - which were
unknown for the US and the Allies till after the war.

In this context, referring to this PM report, could the
'hieroglyphs' detected on the beams on the Ramey office photos,
i.e.:

http://www.abduct.com/aaer/n53.htm

possibly be Japanese writing/imprints? I'm just wondering...(Any
Japanese readers of this list who can 'validate' this idea? Or
any others, having knowledge of Japanese writing?) Or, could it
just be some marks left from the assembling process; welding,
smoldering etc.?

It is well known that the US used ('alien') technology recoverd
from German scientists (but not necessarily _Nazis_) after the
war. This includes - at least - the rocket technology, fronted
by von Braun.

It is also well known that there were numerous sighting of
'flying saucers' the first years after the war - and most likely
- due to the intensive developments and tests of the new and
captured technologies, involving some exotic aircraft, missiles
and rockets.

Regarding some of the US captured tech. a reference is made to
the following web sites:

http://www.cris.com/~Danford/horten.htm

where the following is mentioned:

"Several nurflugels came to the U.S. as war booty,

including the center section of the Ho 229. Four of them are
now back in Germany for restoration, with one to remain there
when the work is finished, while the other three rejoin the
collection of the National Air & Space Museum. A restored Horten
sailplane is on display at Planes of Fame in Chino,
California, which also owns a Northrop N-9M, a technology
demonstrator roughly the size of the Ho 299, but much less
sophisticated."

"Construction of the H IX V3 was nearly complete when the Gotha
Works at Friederichsroda was overrun by troops of the American
3rd Army's VII Corps on April 14, 1945. The aircraft was
assigned the number T2-490 by the Americans. The aircraft's
official RLM designation is uncertain, as it was referred to as
the Ho 229 as well as the Go 229. Also found in the destroyed
and abandoned works were several other prototypes in various
stages of construction, including a two-seat version."

-"The V3 was sent to the United States by ship, along with other
captured aircraft, and finally ended up in the General H. H.
"Hap" Arnold collection of the Air Force Technical Museum."

"The all-wing aircraft was to have been brought to flying status
at Park Ridge, Illinois, but budget cuts in the late forties and
early fifties brought these plans to an end. The V3 was handed
over to the present-day National Air and Space Museum (NASM) in
Washington D.C."

Regarding the US Flying Wings by Northrop, this URL can be
checked:

http://www.cris.com/~Danford/album.htm

where the following is mentioned:

"In time, the team of Northrop, von Karman, and Sears tamed the
N-9M, but the Army was losing patience with the development
problems at Northrop and Consolidated. Development of the B-36
was behind schedule, and the XB-35, which was even more of an
engineering challenge, had yet to fly. So the production
contract was canceled, leaving only two X (experimental) and 13
Y (service test) B-35s on order.

The XB-35 finally took to the air in June 1946, almost a year
after Japan had surrendered. Company pilot Max Stanley flew it
to Muroc Army Air Base. "No trouble," he reported. The same
couldn't be said of the XB-35 thereafter: Its engines
overheated, its propeller shafts vibrated, its propeller gearbox
broke down, and its auxiliary power unit (a gasoline-powered
electrical generator) failed."

Note the links to the Horten brothers,and note that they (the
Americans, and Hortens?) were testing the YB-49 in 1947 - being
very much like the Ho 229.

Jet powered versions of these Northrop craft could thus also be
realistic alternatives to the Arnold sightings; i.e., N-9M or
YB/XB-35; check:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p79.htm

and,

http://www.flightonline.mcmail.com/northrop.htm

To conclude, based upon the available info. so far, the
following is proposed:

The Arnold sightings were most likely:

1. Guided missiles, and/or,

2. Some early experimental planes, possibly captured from
Germany just after the war, or possibly developed by Northrop or
some other American company - and not extra terrestrial (ET)
aircraft, and the reason being:

It is fairly unlikely that an ET tech. observed - e.g. by Arnold
- in those days, should be _nearly identical_ to an existing,
well known (however not yet really well-proven) and already
developed American/German aircraft technology. (At least, the
theory was well known.)

What is left here is to check unclassified US military records
of possible flying tests which took place in those days (e.g.,
located on the Web). (It is guessed that the military was
responsible for these kinds of projects.)

There is also a possibility that the sightings could be some
Soviet developed aircraft or missiles/drones, having shapes to
be nearly invisible on the radar screens, i.e., being
fast-flying, flat, tail-less and oval/saucer/crescent-shaped,
etc.

The Roswell Incident is possibly (at least) two incidents; one
involving (a) weather balloon(s) - either Japanese or American
(Project Mogul?)- the other involving an experimental aircraft,
possibly developed by an American company, in co-operation with
'alien' scientists (German, Japanese), or possibly some war
booty. The test pilots could, for instance, be Japanese, and
former 'kamikaze' pilots - 'hired' by the American military.

The imprints on the balloon remanents shown on Ramey office
photos may be some Japanese signs, indicating relics from a
Japanese balloon.

The message in Rameys hand, i.e.:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/8827/ramey.html

is likely to be a message from Brig. Gen. M. Scanlan ('Temple';
AWS), and the original of this message should (if not already
destroyed) be found in the archives at the US Army's Air Defense
Command, or at some other (uncertain) US archives (unclassified
now?).

So far, the Ramey message indicates that Scanlan was informed of
the 4, (Japanese?) victims from the crash of the test plane (or
ballon), and he started a 'cover-up' to keep this crash and the
aircraft wreck as a secret, and also involving some extra 'crash
sites', extra personnel, and some remains of a recent crashed
weather balloon - either Japanese or American (Project Mogul?).

In the USA there were many secret projects involving
experimental and 'exotic' aircraft just after the war, due to
the availibility of both the captured aircraft themselves, and
the designers and engineers, coming in from Gernmany and Japan
to the USA.

The Horten brothers were likely to be among these scientists.
There were thus numerous tests of these craft all over the USA
especially just after the war, but none of these test flights
were in no way official; they were 'non-existing', mainly
because of fear of possible Soviet espionage activities.

In my opinion, these claims or proposals shouldn't be very far
from the reality. And, at least, the proposals do not contain
more fantasy than previously releasd material in these areas -
and in my sense, they are NOT FAR FROM BEING REALISTIC.

In any case, I'm just making - from my viewpoint - some
realistic inferences based upon the info. I have available
through the Web. (Now, I'm well aware of that these claims and
proposals might be somewhat modified as more info. becomes
available - but that's what research really's about.)

Further, I'm thus presenting my personal views here, and they're
just intended to summarize and to present some fresh looks and
judgments into both the Roswell incident and the Arnold
sightings, though I guess there will hardly be an 100% answer to
the question of what was actually happening at Roswell, and what
Arnold actually did see.

It is realized that much of the hidden info. involving US
military activities, will be revealed to the public after
reviewing US and Allies' military documents that nowadays - many
years after the early post-war area - are being unclassified,
and finally - becoming available on The Web.

Yet, there are still too many suggestions and proposals (e.g.,
based upon my 'armchair theories'), and there's more to be
proven - though many of the conclusions just have to be based on
indices, and not only the hard evidence.

(Sorry. This was another long mail again!)


Best regards,

AWS

[Tchort]

In one of my issues of Resistance Magazine theres a photo of an old secret SS aircraft that looks like modern day depictions of UFO's. It was one of the aircraft the US took after the war. It's assumed much of the UFO sightings in the 50's and 60's on american soil were prototypes made after German plans (including stealth tech.)

[Timo]

A secret SS airplane? You mean the SS developed airplanes?

[Tchort]

The 'vengence weapons' programs were under SS control-if i remember correctly.

[Ebusitanus]

I just love these freaked out conections between Wewelsburg, Bad Tolz, Die Etnersteine (sp), Mont Segur in south France, the Himalayas, the mysetriously disapeared submarine fleet in 1945 and secret Nazi bases in Antartica...Nazi saucers are right there too.
You just need a nice session in playing Retrun to Castle Wolfenstein and there you go.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

The SS worked on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter vertical take-off rocket-interceptor project.

Does anyone REALLY believe that the Germans constructed flying saucers :

Why would the Allies hide such projects :

[frankendreads]

well like they hide most secret projects
from after the war
you remember the cold war right??
i feeel this makes more sence than aliens though
as it does follow a logical process
as with the development of the b2
the looked at the hoten ho229
for design comparisions
the russians got hold of the factory that were making the people fighter
and fw ta P183 which if u look at it's design is very simular to the migs of the fiftys
:twisted:

[Y Ddraig Goch]

the russians got hold of the factory that were making the people fighter
and fw ta P183 which if u look at it's design is very simular to the migs of the fiftys :twisted:

No Focke-Wulf Ta 183 were built, only scale models. I do know the similalities between the early Mig jets and the Ta 183, the Brazillians had a jet called the Pullquie (spelling?) Kurt Tank himself helped design, it too was similar to the Ta 183 though it was somewhat refined.

I very much doubt that the Germans developed anything like the 'Foo Fighters' AKA the Kugelblitz or the Fuerball, they are just made up. The most advanced designs were aircraft like the Junkers Ju 187 (the forward swept-wing jet bomber), check out the Luftwaffe 46 site.

Is there any REAL evidence that suggests that the Germans develped any such advanced aircraft :

[Timo]

The SS worked on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter vertical take-off rocket-interceptor project.

They did not, they only forced the RLM to reconsider:

Bachem's proposal was rejected out of hand mainly because it called for the aircraft to be semi-deposable and the RLM's requirement for consideration did not envision the partial lose of the interceptor after each mission. The RLM also looked at the fact that the design had been uninvited and submitted for consideration through abnormal channels. Being passed to on to the RLM for consideration with the aid of the Luftwaffe's General of Fighters, Adolf Galland.

Bachem, however was convinced of the feasibility of this project and applied for and was granted an interview with no lesser personage than Henrich Himmler, who headed of the SS.

Himmler displayed immediate interest in the Natter project, promising his full personal support. Within 24 hours, Bachem had been informed that the RLM had reconsidered its earlier rejection and was now granting the Natter project its highest developmental priority. So much can be said for the fear and intimidation that Himmler and the SS carried in getting the RLM to reconsider. But the Natter was not developed or "worked on" by the SS. It was developed by Bachem and the RLM.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

The SS worked on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter vertical take-off rocket-interceptor project.

They did not, they only forced the RLM to reconsider:

Bachem's proposal was rejected out of hand mainly because it called for the aircraft to be semi-deposable and the RLM's requirement for consideration did not envision the partial lose of the interceptor after each mission. The RLM also looked at the fact that the design had been uninvited and submitted for consideration through abnormal channels. Being passed to on to the RLM for consideration with the aid of the Luftwaffe's General of Fighters, Adolf Galland.

Bachem, however was convinced of the feasibility of this project and applied for and was granted an interview with no lesser personage than Henrich Himmler, who headed of the SS.

Himmler displayed immediate interest in the Natter project, promising his full personal support. Within 24 hours, Bachem had been informed that the RLM had reconsidered its earlier rejection and was now granting the Natter project its highest developmental priority. So much can be said for the fear and intimidation that Himmler and the SS carried in getting the RLM to reconsider. But the Natter was not developed or "worked on" by the SS. It was developed by Bachem and the RLM.

Yes I know about Himmler's participation:

"Undeterred at having lost the competition to Heinkel, Erich Bachem used his contacts and credentials to secure an interview with Himmler, who showed an immediate interest in his project, seeing it as a point-scoring exercise for the SS over the Luftwaffe and the regular army. Within twenty-four hours the Natter proposal was referred back to the Air Ministry for re-valuation. "

But on countless times I have read of the SS participation, here is an example:

"The Natter was actually saved because Himmler was still interested in the project and allowed development to continue under the auspices of the SS"

And here:

"The Natter was launched with a dummy in the cockpit, and the test was a success: both the rocket section and the mannequin parachuted down without mishap. The SS were sufficiently impressed to order that further trials now be undertaken with actual pilots at the controls and so, against the better judgement of the Bachem team, Oberleutnant Lothar Siebert took off in the M23 a few days later. "

And here again

"Given time, the SS might have continued stubbornly with their pet project, but the Natter wasn't really living up to expectations and it is likely that even if the war had gone on, the project would have soon reached its shut-off point anyway. "

When I said the SS worked on the project I didn't mean that technitions worked on the construction of the project. I meant the the SS paticipated in the project, ie the administration side of things. But the SS did have technitions and it wouldn't surprise me if SS technitions did work on the Natter project.

[Al Carter]

Does anyone here remember in the old furom a discussion about a Third Reich base or hanger that was underground, and is off limits now, but still has power coming from it? I might be wrong I could not find the post in the archives. Does anyone have information about this sort of thing? I will keep searching the archive...I have been using Thuringen, but it might have been another name and I am confused.

Al Carter

[lesm]

Back in 1950, Der Spiegel published an article titled "Untertassen-Flieger Kombination" devoted to the mystery of flying saucers. Actually the article was an interview to a Captain Rudolph Schriever who alleged worked on a “Flugkreisel” project. From then on the ball started rolling.

[Kim]

I remember the thread from the old forum that you are referring to.There was a member there by the name of "Moyal" seemed to be the resident saucer and secret goings-on buff.Maybe that will help your search.