Berlin to mark Nazis' gay victims

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Marcus
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Berlin to mark Nazis' gay victims

#1

Post by Marcus » 12 Dec 2003, 21:52

Germany is to build a memorial for the thousands of homosexual men persecuted or killed by the Nazis.
Parliament agreed to pay $610,000 for a building that will commemorate Nazism's gay victims at a central Berlin site.
Some 50,000 gays were branded criminals and degenerates by the Third Reich and 10,000 to 15,000 went to concentration camps, from which few ever returned.
Germany last year overcame conservative objections to grant a formal pardon to gays convicted under Nazism.
"Homosexual victims of the Nazi regime were mostly shut out of Germany's culture of remembrance in the past. That is now over," said Volker Beck, an MP for the Green Party.
The memorial will be built along the Tiergarten Park in Berlin, close to the site of a planned Holocaust memorial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3314887.stm

/Marcus

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Beppo Schmidt
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#2

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 12 Dec 2003, 21:56

I'd say this is long overdue, like much else involving the Second World War and the Holocaust.


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Penn44
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#3

Post by Penn44 » 13 Dec 2003, 01:09

Beppo Schmidt wrote:I'd say this is long overdue, like much else involving the Second World War and the Holocaust.
This contradicts one of your previous postings:
Beppo Schmidt wrote: I think Germany has actually bent too far over backwards when dealing with the Holocaust.

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RACPISA
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#4

Post by RACPISA » 13 Dec 2003, 01:52

I think Beppo means that Germany has bent over backwards to give reparations to the Jews but not paid as much attention as they should to other groups who suffered during the Nazi regime, like the homosexuals. Am I right, Beppo?

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#5

Post by Penn44 » 13 Dec 2003, 02:09

RACPISA wrote:
Am I right, Beppo?
Beppo can speak for himself.

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#6

Post by RACPISA » 13 Dec 2003, 02:44

Penn44 wrote: Beppo can speak for himself.
well, sheesh, sorry. :|

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#7

Post by Dan » 13 Dec 2003, 02:59

An important thing to remember is that in most countries of the world, homosexuals were typically thrown into jail during that time frame. I frankly wonder about this precident, whether or not another 100 or so nations will have to erect monuments to the persecution of homosexuals. The fact that Penn44 has said that he likes to frequent strip clubs and date bisexual women may perhaps cloud his judgement.

I feel that I have not violated the guidelines of this forum by pointing out things that Penn44 has volunteered about his lifestyle, as it may perhaps cloud his judgement given the historical context. In other words, perhaps a lifestyle that Penn44 takes for granted was illegal in most countries during the period of WW2

If I am wrong, I will retract my post.

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#8

Post by David Thompson » 13 Dec 2003, 04:37

Everyone - Please avoid personal comments about posters, and stay with the topic.

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#9

Post by michael mills » 13 Dec 2003, 05:05

Homosexual acts by males were prosecuted in National Socialist Germany under a section of the Criminal Code that was in existence well before Hitler came to power, and had been passed some time in the 19th century, at approximately the same time as male homosexuality was criminalised in Britain.

So far as I know, the punishment upon conviction for male homosexual acts was a term of imprisonment, certainly not capital punishment.

There was in Germany no law criminalising homosexual acts by females, thus mirroring the legal situation in Britain. Lesbians who ended up in prison were there not for their Lesbianism but due to convictions for other offences, such as prostitution.

The reason why both male and female homosexuals ended up in concentration camps is not specifically their sexual orientation, but rather a provision made in 1943 that persons convicted to sentences over a specific term could be transferred to concentration camps for "destruction by labour".

The agreement was made in 1943 between Himmler and the Minister for Justice, Thierack. The arrangement was that certain persons convicted of crimes under the criminal code and serving time in prison were to be transferred to concentration camps rather than remaining in prison. The criteria for transfer to a concentration camp varied according to the convict's ethnicity; thus, all Jews and Poles convicted of a crime in a German court and sentenced to imprisonment were to be transferred, regardless of the length of sentence, whereas convicted Germans and Czechs were only to be transferred if their sentences were over a defined length (10 years I think but my memory might be faulty on that point). For convicts of other nationalities, the cut-off point for selection was a lesser term than that for Germans and Czechs.

Thus, male homosexuals sentenced to a term of imprisonment over the respective length making them eligible for transfer to a concentration camp, whether for the offence of committing illegal homosexual acts or for some other offence, and female homosexuals convicted to similar terms of imprisonment for offences not related to their sexual orientation, could find themselves in concentration camps. One in the camps, they were of course subject to the general conditions there, and their chances of survivla were not good.

Male and female homosexuals had no greater chance of being sent to concentration camps than other convicted persons sentenced to terms of imprisonment of a lenght that made them eligible for transfer. However, males who had been convicted of the offence of committing homosexual acts were distinguished in the camps by being assigned a pink triangle, which made them stand out, and perhaps gave rise to the supposition that they were being persecuted as a group. Female homosexual inmates, who had usually been convicted of an offence such as prostitution, were given the black triangle for anti-social offences, which was issued to all persons convicted of such offences, and had nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

Given the actual historical background to the reasons why male and female homosexuals could end up in concentration camps, the dedication of a memorial specifically to homosexual prisoners does seem to be more the result of pandering to a politically influential lobby group rather than the righting of an historical injustice. Why single out those convicts transferred to concentration camps who were homosexual, rather than those had been convicted of petty theft, for example?

It is a pity that certain contributors to this thread have made the issue of the transfer of convicted homosexual prisoners to the concentration camps yet another occasion for reiterating their ideological positions, rather than seeking to inform themselves as to the historical facts.

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#10

Post by Penn44 » 13 Dec 2003, 05:28

Dan wrote:An important thing to remember is that in most countries of the world, homosexuals were typically thrown into jail during that time frame. I frankly wonder about this precident, whether or not another 100 or so nations will have to erect monuments to the persecution of homosexuals.


A concentration camp experience is typically considered worse than a brief jail stay, but those of us with reasoned judgment and information realize that.
Dan wrote: The fact that Penn44 has said that he likes to frequent strip clubs and date bisexual women may perhaps cloud his judgement.
Thank you, Dan, you just reminded me that if I don't hurry, I'm gonna be late to get some "cloudin" tonight. Whoa mama.
Dan wrote: In other words, perhaps a lifestyle that Penn44 takes for granted was illegal in most countries during the period of WW2.
Dearest Dan, at one time, Christianity was considered a crime and was persecuted. They even fed Xians to the lions, but this upset the tummies of the lions so, that they stopped the practice.

Dan will you join with me to build some monuments to the following repressed groups -

- Lions with upset tummies,
- Strippers (and especially those bi-sexual ones) sent to concentration camps,
- Lions eaten by strippers in concentration camps,
- Strippers eaten by lions in concentration camps (a little tit for cat there. Sorry, I couldn't resist that pun),
- And one monument for our very own David Thompson who has to deal with all these postings.

Does anyone have any other monument ideas?


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#11

Post by Lobscouse » 13 Dec 2003, 05:45

You are just trying to trivialise what happened to the Christians.

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#12

Post by David Thompson » 13 Dec 2003, 06:51

Since the temptation to make personal remarks appears irresistable, this thread is closed for the next 24 hours.

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R.M. Schultz
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#13

Post by R.M. Schultz » 14 Dec 2003, 03:49

michael mills wrote: Homosexual acts by males were prosecuted in National Socialist Germany under a section of the Criminal Code that was in existence well before Hitler came to power, and had been passed some time in the 19th century, at approximately the same time as male homosexuality was criminalised in Britain.
This statement is true, as far as it goes, yet fundamentally disingenuous. Section 175 of the Prussian (and later Imperial and Weimar) criminal code made homosexual anal sodomy illegal. While this law was on the books, it was hard to enforce as actual sodomy (not mere licentiousness, nor oral sodomy, nor mutual masturbation) had to be proved. On at least one occasion, Ernst Röhm avoided prosecution under Section 175 by claiming (probably falsely) that he and a male prostitute had only engaged in mutual masturbation. Outside of the military (where the regulations were much tighter) homosexual prosecution was virtually nil before the Nazi regime.

Secondly, not only did the Nazis made the penalties under Section 175 much more severe, but they also made prosecution easier by including not only oral and genital play, but mere licentiousness (e.g. provocative speech, the possession of homoerotic pornography, etc.) as grounds for prosecution. As a result, prosecutions went up dramatically and harsher sentences were handed out.

Thus, it is incorrect say that the Nazis merely continued with a pre-existing policy.
michael mills wrote: There was in Germany no law criminalising homosexual acts by females …
Under the Nazi regime, Section 175 was revised to include lesbianism, though prosecutions were extremely rare.
michael mills wrote:The reason why both male and female homosexuals ended up in concentration camps is not specifically their sexual orientation, but rather a provision made in 1943 that persons convicted to sentences over a specific term could be transferred to concentration camps for "destruction by labour". …
This too is disingenuous as the harsher sentences required by the Nazi revision of Section 175 made conviction a de facto sentence to the concentration camps. Also, any SS men found engaging in homoerotic activities were sent directly to concentration camps.

It is also worth noting here that male homosexual prisoners in concentration camps were often given the chance to “prove” themselves to be heterosexual with prostitutes and thus earn a parole to military service. There are many documented cases of this, in fact most of the homosexual survivors of the camps survived for just this reason. If homosexuals were not in the camps for just that reason, then why weren’t petty thieves given the chance to “prove” themselves property respecting and only then paroled to the military?
michael mills wrote:Female homosexual inmates, who had usually been convicted of an offence such as prostitution, were given the black triangle for anti-social offences, which was issued to all persons convicted of such offences, and had nothing to do with their sexual orientation.
As I mentioned before, female conviction under Section 175 was a rarity. Since the Nazi motivation for persecuting homosexuality was because it was antigennic, as opposed to “vice,” married women were only rarely convicted (even in the face of prima fascia evidence) and women with children were never convicted of lesbianism! Thus, it should surprise almost no one that the vast bulk of lesbian women in concentration camps were there for other reasons, yet there are documented cases of women wearing the pink triangle!
michael mills wrote:Given the actual historical background to the reasons why male and female homosexuals could end up in concentration camps, the dedication of a memorial specifically to homosexual prisoners does seem to be more the result of pandering to a politically influential lobby group rather than the righting of an historical injustice. Why single out those convicts transferred to concentration camps who were homosexual, rather than those had been convicted of petty theft, for example?
Dan wrote:An important thing to remember is that in most countries of the world, homosexuals were typically thrown into jail during that time frame. I frankly wonder about this precident, whether or not another 100 or so nations will have to erect monuments to the persecution of homosexuals.
These arguments only make sense if you think that homosexuality is the moral equivalence of petty theft. The general consensus in the civilized world now is that society has a right to punish crimes committed against others (e.g. petty theft) but that it is despotic to punish sins against the self (e.g. obesity, homosexuality, sloth). Thus, while it might be draconian to send petty thieves to almost certain death, it constitutes an atrocity to kill people over a purely private matter.
Dan wrote:The fact that Penn44 has said that he likes to frequent strip clubs … may perhaps cloud his judgement.
Here I must agree with Dan. Paying money for sex is perhaps one of the most morally debased results of capitalism! The idea that human love can be turned into a commodity to be bought and sold is just stomach-turning, yet it is the inevitable result of capitalist markets and bourgeois proprieties! Such exploitative behavior will come to an end only when capitalism is eradicated. I’m sure that Dan will join me in praying for that day!
Dan wrote:The fact that Penn44 has said that he likes to … date bisexual women may perhaps cloud his judgement.
I’m not sure I understand the objection here? If no money changes hands, what’s the harm in it?

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#14

Post by Penn44 » 14 Dec 2003, 05:13

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Dan wrote:The fact that Penn44 has said that he likes to frequent strip clubs … may perhaps cloud his judgement.
Here I must agree with Dan. Paying money for sex is perhaps one of the most morally debased results of capitalism! The idea that human love can be turned into a commodity to be bought and sold is just stomach-turning, yet it is the inevitable result of capitalist markets and bourgeois proprieties! Such exploitative behavior will come to an end only when capitalism is eradicated. I’m sure that Dan will join me in praying for that day!
It is unfortunate that this forum has to depart from its usual routine of Holocaust denial, revisionism, and Nazi apologetics to discuss my sex life.

But, I must defend myself against this erroneous charge. Who says that I charged them to have sex with me? I always bestow my carnal gifts for free. For me to charge these women for sex would be like Christ charging a fee for bestowing grace.

And due note that paying for sex existed prior to capitalism. Its most notorious form is called, "marriage." And believe me, men pay dearly.

Further, I sincerely regret that anything that I said or may have said has led R.M. Schultz to agree with Dan. Indeed, a historic, although infamous occasion.

Now, that I have said my piece, please return to your usual Holocaust denial, revisionism, and Nazi apologetics.


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#15

Post by R.M. Schultz » 14 Dec 2003, 05:53

Penn44 wrote:And due note that paying for sex existed prior to capitalism. Its most notorious form is called, "marriage." And believe me, men pay dearly.
Please note that I have already addressed that issue!
R.M. Schultz wrote: …The idea that human love can be turned into a commodity to be bought and sold is just stomach-turning, yet it is the inevitable result of capitalist markets and bourgeois proprieties!

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