Tigers in Action

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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stoat17
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Tigers in Action

#1

Post by stoat17 » 05 Jan 2004, 16:39

The tiger tank was probably the most feared tank in the German army during the war. Of course you are always hearing about its legendary armour and how invincible it was. But... I have yet found a battle were it was employed in large numbers and had a decisive effect on the battle. In the battle of kursk along the southern front were the 3 SS divisions were, the Leibstandarte divison clashed head on with one of the russian tank gurads division... their were something like 800 t-34 and 600 german tanks, a mixed combination of tigers and mark IV's. In the end of the battle both sides lost over 300 tanks and their was no clear winner due to the fact the tanks engaged each other at point blank range. Invincible?
Also the account of Wittmann destroying the 22nd British armoured brigade and villers-bocage? When he was driving down the street pumping round after round into the column were the british even firing back? In this one remarkable incident, I believe it was here that the British hyped the tank up.
Any way... am curious of large tank battles with tiger tanks... ones that we don't read about in every single WWII book we open up, like the Wittmann engagement. The tank battles that made the Tiger legendary... one that involves Josef Stalin heavy tanks would also be great.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#2

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 05 Jan 2004, 17:35

At Kursk, the Leibstandarte didn't loose a single Tiger, if I remember correctly (or was that Großdeutschland?). That goes to show something...

As for Wittmann, that account is highly exagerated. I'm sure Michael Kenny will help you out on getting your facts straight...

Christian


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Rommel8
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#3

Post by Rommel8 » 05 Jan 2004, 22:19

Its not all that exaggerated but its not how it happened

Wittman set him self up hulldown, meaning only his turret was exposed. His first two shots set the first tank in the column ablaze and the last tank, effectively trapping the soon to be doomed column. It wasnt a whole brigade, more so half of one, but it was completely wiped out

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#4

Post by filuhzwawy » 05 Jan 2004, 23:25

stoat the sources you are refering to are long outdated and are greatly responsible for the myth of prohorovka.

First of all The II ss panzers corps, the one that clashed with rotmistrovs guard tank army, prior to launching citadel had only 327 tanks including 35 tigers but not including 30 command tanks.

On the eve of the battle of prohorovka , 11th july, the totenkopf division had 94 tanks including 10 tigers, leibstandarte had 56 tanks including 4 tigers, das reich had 61 tanks including 1 tiger. After the battle on the 13th of july totenkopf reported 49 tanks with no tigers, leibstandarte 39 tanks with 4 tigers, and das reich reported 75 panzers including one tiger. It is not haowever clear if the tigers included in the second days report were the same ones.

The second misconseption is that the two sides clashed with each other by surprise. Not true.

The third misconception is that it was a huge tank battle when in fact it was a series of engagements that each division fought in its own sector.

regards
Last edited by filuhzwawy on 06 Jan 2004, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Harri
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#5

Post by Harri » 05 Jan 2004, 23:55

You...killjoys!!! :lol:
Last edited by Harri on 11 Jan 2004, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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stoat17
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#6

Post by stoat17 » 06 Jan 2004, 08:53

ey?

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stoat17
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#7

Post by stoat17 » 06 Jan 2004, 08:58

anyway... back to the original question... were their any large tank engagements with tigers...? or is this just a bicker group that is made up of old women...

tiger tank battles please...

(am here too so no further insults :P )

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#8

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Jan 2004, 11:34

Quote:

"Wittman set him self up hulldown, meaning only his turret was exposed. His first two shots set the first tank in the column ablaze and the last tank, effectively trapping the soon to be doomed column. It wasnt a whole brigade, more so half of one, but it was completely wiped out"

Sorry but completely wrong. Wittmann, supported from fire from at least 2 other Tigers, drove down a wide open sided road and did not block it off by knocking the first and last tanks out (if it was so narrow that no tank could turn off the road then how did Wittmann pass down the side of this road?) He himself hit AT MOST 10 tanks. 4th CLY lost all of 'A' Squadron but 'B' and 'C' Squadron were untouched. 22nd Armoured Brigade consisted of 4th CLY, 1st RTR and 5th RTR. Therefore the losses were 1 Squadron out of 9, hardly a major loss for the Brigade.

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#9

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Jan 2004, 11:48

Thanks, Michael! ;)

Christian

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R-Bob The Great!
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#10

Post by R-Bob The Great! » 07 Jan 2004, 07:26

I just read Steel Rain:Waffen SS Panzer Battles in the West and he came up from the side knocked out the back tank (never said anything about a front tank) and then proceeded up and down the side with a panzer IV destroying all the tanks trapped by the steep embankments.

Of course none of us are making these accounts up. It is strange that there is so much controversy over such a well-documented incident. I mean it would make more sense if all of our sources agreed.

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#11

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 07 Jan 2004, 10:53

R-Bob The Great! wrote:I just read Steel Rain:Waffen SS Panzer Battles in the West and he came up from the side knocked out the back tank (never said anything about a front tank) and then proceeded up and down the side with a panzer IV destroying all the tanks trapped by the steep embankments.

Of course none of us are making these accounts up. It is strange that there is so much controversy over such a well-documented incident. I mean it would make more sense if all of our sources agreed.
It depends on what sources you are referring to. If all the books use the same source (or worse yet, use each other as sources), then the same accounts will be featured multiple times.

I have a feeling that Michael is very close to the truth about this incident, as he is with most cases regarding Tigers...

Christian

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Width of the 'sunken lane'

#12

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Jan 2004, 21:41

As you can see the road is not narrow nor has it high banks. Note the other side of the road is clear and wide enough to turn a bus around on. Ripley's book has a great number of errors and his Villers account is completely false. The book also has a few Russian/Italian front Tiger photos that are now said to be Normandy!
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stoat17
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#13

Post by stoat17 » 07 Jan 2004, 21:53

sweet picture!

any on kursk anybody?

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Rommel8
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#14

Post by Rommel8 » 07 Jan 2004, 22:32

thanks for clearing that up Michael....so much for where I heard that :S

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#15

Post by Timo » 10 Jan 2004, 11:34

From an article written by George M. Nipe Jr.

(...) Prochorovka is one of the best-known of the many battles on the Eastern Front during World War II. It has been covered in articles, books and televised historical documentaries, but these accounts vary in accuracy; some are merely incomplete, while others border on fiction. In the generally accepted version of the battle, the three SS divisions attacked Prochorovka shoulder to shoulder, jammed into the terrain between the Psel and the railroad. A total of 500 to 700 German tanks, including dozens of Panzerkampfwagen Mark V Panther medium tanks with 75mm guns and Panzerkampfwagen Mark VI Tiger heavy tanks with deadly 88mm cannons, lumbered forward while hundreds of nimble Soviet T-34 medium tanks raced into the midst of the SS armor and threw the Germans into confusion. The Soviets closed with the panzers, negating the Tigers' 88mm guns, outmaneuvered the German armor and knocked out hundreds of German tanks. The Soviet tank force's audacious tactics resulted in a disastrous defeat for the Germans, and the disorganized SS divisions withdrew, leaving 400 destroyed tanks behind, including between 70 and 100 Tigers and many Panthers. Those losses smashed the SS divisions' fighting power, and as a result Hoth's Fourth Panzer Army had no chance to achieve even a partial victory in the south.

While it makes a dramatic story, nearly all of this battle scenario is essentially myth. Careful study of the daily tank strength reports and combat records of II SS Panzer Corps-- available on microfilm at the National Archives in Washington, D.C.--provides information that forces a historical reappraisal of the battle. These records show, first of all, that Hausser's corps began with far fewer tanks than previously believed and, more important, that they suffered only moderate losses on July 12, 1943. As those reports were intended to allow the corps commander to assess the combat strength of his divisions, they can be considered reasonably accurate. Considering that information, it seems that the Germans may have been near a limited success on the southern flank of the salient.

The number of SS tanks actually involved in the battle has been variously reported as high as 700 by some authorities, while others have estimated between 300 to 600. Even before the Battle of Kursk began, however, the II SS Panzer Corps never had 500 tanks, much less 700. On July 4, the day before Operation Citadel was launched, Hausser's three divisions possessed a total of 327 tanks between them, plus a number of command tanks. By July 11, the II SS Panzer Corps had a total of 211 operational tanks--Totenkopf had 94 tanks, Leibstandarte had only 56 and Das Reich possessed just 61. Damaged tanks or tanks undergoing repairs are not listed. Only 15 Tiger tanks were still in action at Prochorovka, and there were no SS Panthers available. The battalions that were equipped with Panthers were still training in Germany in July 1943.

On July 13, the day after the Battle of Prochorovka, Fourth Panzer Army reports declared that the II SS Panzer Corps had 163 operational tanks, a net loss of only 48 tanks. Actual losses were somewhat heavier, the discrepancy due to the gain of repaired tanks returned to action. Closer study of the losses of each type of tank reveals that the corps lost about 70 tanks on July 12. In contrast, Soviet tank losses, long assumed to be moderate, were actually catastrophic. In 1984, a history of the Fifth Guards Tank Army written by Rotmistrov himself revealed that on July 13 the army lost 400 tanks to repairable damage. He gave no figure for tanks that were destroyed or not available for salvage. Evidence suggests that there were hundreds of additional Soviet tanks lost. Several German accounts mention that Hausser had to use chalk to mark and count the huge jumble of 93 knocked-out Soviet tanks in the Leibstandarte sector alone. Other Soviet sources say the tank strength of the army on July 13 was 150 to 200, a loss of about 650 tanks. Those losses brought a caustic rebuke from Josef Stalin. Subsequently, the depleted Fifth Guards Tank Army did not resume offensive action, and Rotmistrov ordered his remaining tanks to dig in among the infantry positions west of the town.

Another misconception about the battle is the image of all three SS divisions attacking shoulder to shoulder through the narrow lane between the Psel and the rail line west of Prochorovka. Only Leibstandarte was aligned directly west of the town, and it was the only division to attack the town itself. The II SS Panzer Corps zone of battle, contrary to the impression given in many accounts, was approximately nine miles wide, with Totenkopf on the left flank, Leibstandarte in the center and Das Reich on the right flank. Totenkopf's armor was committed primarily to the Psel bridgehead and in defensive action against Soviet attacks on the Psel bridges. In fact, only Leibstandarte actually advanced into the corridor west of Prochorovka, and then only after it had thrown back initial Soviet attacks.

Early on July 12, Leibstandarte units reported a great deal of loud motor noise, which indicated massing Soviet armor. Soon after 5 a.m., hundreds of Soviet tanks, carrying infantry, rolled out of Prochorovka and its environs in groups of 40 to 50. Waves of T-34 and T-70 tanks advanced at high speed in a charge straight at the startled Germans. When machine-gun fire, armor-piercing shells and artillery fire struck the T-34s, the Soviet infantry jumped off and sought cover. Leaving their infantry behind, the T-34s rolled on. Those Soviet tanks that survived the initial clash with SS armor continued a linear advance and were destroyed by the Germans.

When the initial Soviet attack paused, Leibstandarte pushed its armor toward the town and collided with elements of Rotmistrov's reserve armor. A Soviet attack by the 181st Tank Regiment was defeated by several SS Tigers, one of which, the 13th (heavy) Company of the 1st SS Panzer Regiment, was commanded by 2nd Lt. Michael Wittmann, the most successful tank commander of the war. Wittmann's group was advancing in flank support of the German main attack when it was engaged by the Soviet tank regiment at long range. The Soviet charge, straight at the Tigers over open ground, was suicidal. The frontal armor of the Tiger was impervious to the 76mm guns of the T-34s at any great distance. The field was soon littered with burning T-34s and T-70s. None of the Tigers were lost, but the 181st Tank Regiment was annihilated. Late in the day, Rotmistrov committed his last reserves, elements of the V Mechanized Corps, which finally halted Leibstandarte.

Das Reich began its attack from several kilometers southwest of Prochorovka and was quickly engaged by aggressive battle groups of the II Tank Corps and II Guards Tank Corps. Fierce, somewhat confused fighting broke out all along the German division's axis of advance. Battle groups of 20 to 40 Soviet tanks, supported by infantry and ground-attack planes, collided with Das Reich regimental spearheads. Rotmistrov continued to throw armor against the division, and combat raged throughout the day, with heavy losses of Soviet armor. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward, advancing into the night while suffering relatively light tank losses.

Meanwhile, on the left flank, Soviet First Tank Army elements unsuccessfully tried to crush Totenkopf's bridgehead. The SS division fought off the XXXI and X Tank Corps, supported by elements of the XXXIII Rifle Corps. In spite of the Soviet attacks, Totenkopf's panzer group drove toward a road that ran from the village of Kartaschevka, southeast across the river and into Prochorovka.

The fighting, characterized by massive losses of Soviet armor, continued throughout July 12 without a decisive success by either side--contrary to the accounts given in many well-known studies of the Eastern Front, which state that the fighting ended on July 12 with a decisive German defeat. These authors describe the battlefield as littered with hundreds of destroyed German tanks and report that the Soviets overran the SS tank repair units. In fact, the fighting continued around Prochorovka for several more days. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward in the area south of the town until July 16. That advance enabled the III Panzer Corps to link up with the SS division on July 14 and encircle several Soviet rifle divisions south of Prochorovka. Totenkopf eventually reached the Kartaschevka­Prochorovka road, and the division took several tactically important hills on the north edge of its perimeter as well. Those successes were not exploited, however, due to decisions made by Adolf Hitler.

After receiving the news of the Allied invasion of Sicily, as well as reports of impending Soviet attacks on the Mius River and at Izyum, Hitler decided to cancel Operation Citadel. Manstein argued that he should be allowed to finish off the two Soviet tank armies. He had unused reserves, consisting of three experienced panzer divisions of XXIV Panzer Corps, in position for quick commitment. That corps could have been used to attack the Fifth Guards Tank Army in its flank, to break out from the Psel bridgehead or to cross the Psel east of Prochorovka. All of the available Soviet armor in the south was committed and could not be withdrawn without causing a collapse of the Soviet defenses. Manstein correctly realized that he had the opportunity to destroy the Soviet operational and strategic armor in the Prochorovka area.

Hitler could not be persuaded to continue the attack, however. Instead, he dispersed the divisions of the II SS Panzer Corps to deal with the anticipated Soviet diversionary attacks south of the Belgorod­Kharkov sector. On the night of July 17-18, the corps withdrew from its positions around Prochorovka. Thus, the battle for Prochorovka ended, not because of German tank losses (Hausser had over 200 operational tanks on July 17) but because Hitler lacked the will to continue the offensive. The SS panzer divisions were still full of fight; in fact, two of them continued to fight effectively in southern Russia for the rest of the summer.

Leibstandarte was ordered to Italy, but Das Reich and Totenkopf remained in the East. Those two divisions and the 3rd Panzer Division, which replaced Leibstandarte, were transferred to the Sixth Army area, where they conducted a counterattack from July 31 to August 2 that eliminated a strong Soviet bridgehead at the Mius River. Without pause, the three divisions were then transferred to the Bogodukhov sector in early August 1943. Under the command of the III Panzer Corps, they were joined by another unit, the Fifth SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking. During three weeks of constant combat, the four divisions played a major role in stopping the main Soviet post-Kursk counteroffensive, Operation Rumyantsev. They fought Rotmistrov's Fifth Guards Tank Army, rebuilt to 503 tanks strong, and major portions of the First Tank Army, now at 542 tanks.

By the end of the month, Rotmistrov had less than 100 tanks still running. Katukov had only 120 tanks still in action by the last week of August. While at no time did any of the German divisions have more than 55 tanks in operation, they repeatedly blunted the thrusts of the two Soviet tank armies, which were also reinforced by several rifle corps.

Totenkopf repeatedly cut off and defeated all of the First Tank Army's thrusts toward the Kharkov­Poltava rail line. Das Reich threw back two Soviet tank corps south of Bogodukhov and blunted Rotmistrov's last major attack west of Kharkov, and the III Panzer Corps halted Operation Rumyantsev. (...)

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