Who really did that ???? ( Dachau death train mystery )

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Aleksei22
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Who really did that ???? ( Dachau death train mystery )

#1

Post by Aleksei22 » 06 Jan 2004, 22:24

Hello All,

Does anybody khows wing-sqwadron name who did that ?


( Dachau death train mystery )


_______________________________________

In 1967, I visited my cousin, an expellee from Sudetenland, who married a farmer residing just outside of Landsberg.

We talked about the War. My cousin remarked that about eight hundred (I think that was the number she mentioned) Jews being killed in a train parked in Landsberg. Her husband emphasized that it was not the Germans who killed the Jews but that Allied planes that strafed the locked box cars.

For years I had wondered if the train at Dachau was the same train machine-gunned in nearby Landsberg. That was conjecture only.


http://forum.vif2.ru:2003/nvk/forum/3/co/C1C44BF9/864

______________________________________________________________

Rob - wssob2
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#2

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 07 Jan 2004, 04:49

Hi Aleksei22,

The 2 trains (one empty, one full of corpses) found at Dachau on April 29, 1945 by US troops weren't strafed by US planes but had completed a hellish 3-week journey within the shrinking Reich, similar to the "death marches" undertaken by other KZ inmates in the last weeks of the war.

April 5 1945: According to the testimony of camp survivor Gleb Rahr, 5,000 slave laborers, who have walked from the Buchenwald KZ camp and/or the Dora V-2 rocket plants to, are herded onto 2 (possibly 3?) trains of perhaps 30 cars each, with 80 prisoners to a car. Many of the prisoners are starving and infected with typhus. The 2 trains travel to Leipzig, then to Dresden, then on to Czechoslovakia, but no German organizations will either accept or accommodate the travelling prisoners. SS troops guarding the prisoners occasionally shoot them to enforce discipline. These railroad cars would become the infamous Dachau "death trains" that US troops would find at liberation.

April 15: The "death trains" reach Passau; prisoners are only given one bread-brick each, designed to last for three days.

April 23: The "death trains" cross the Danube river.

April 27: The first of the 2 "death trains" enter Dachau KZ. The prisoner bodies are removed from the train.

April 28: The second of the "death trains" arrive at the Dachau KZ. Out of the original tally of 5,000 prisoners, only 1,300 are alive. The survivors of the death train, - starving, brutalized and half-dead from thirst - are taken to the camp's quarantine barracks. SS guards shoot some prisoners as they disembark from the train.

The above is from several sources, including:

Legacies of Dachau: The Uses and Abuses of a Concentration Camp 1933-2001 - Harold Marcuse - Cambridge University Press - NY, NY - 2001

Dachau 29 April 1945: The Rainbow Division Memoirs - Edited by Sam Dann - Texas Tech University Press - Lubbock, TX - 1998


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Psycho Mike
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#3

Post by Psycho Mike » 07 Jan 2004, 07:34

Sad story.

Actually the allies never attacked the train lines heading to the camps, even after every train line had been bombed. I have asked FDR supporters why we didn't.

I am still waiting for an answer.

Aleksei22
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4Q

#4

Post by Aleksei22 » 08 Jan 2004, 17:36

Hello, All

Two fact compillation and 4Q.


______________________________fact-1______________________________
In the autumn of 1944, the guard companies at Dachau had been sent to the front. They had been replaced by Luftwaffe personnel no longer fit for active service at the front; these men had been transferred to the Waffen-SS for the purpose of serving as camp guards.

REF – michael mills Member
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Location: Canberra, Australia

At http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=39246
___________________________________________________________________





_____________________________fact-2______________________________

On the 29.04.45 520 members of the Waffen-SS wer killed from US-Soldiers and a part of them by inmates.
US-Col Prof.Dr. Howard A. Buechner, who was at that time as a Doctor in the rank of a Lt. in the 45.US-Inf.Div. "Thunderbird" was a witness and wrote in his book
"The hour of the Avenger" , Jan. 1986,
on page 99 about the victims:
at once shoot 122
murdered by inmates 40
shoot by "Birdeye 12
shoot on order by
Lt.Jack Bushyhead 346

total victims 520.

REF - Arminiusder Cherusker1 New Member New Member
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At http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=39246
______________________________________________________




Q1 – How many german’s KZ were liberated by USA+UK regular troops with the same kind of
Dachau-execution scenario ?

Q2 -- Was the fact of “ replaced Luftwaffe personnel” nature of camp guard – a KEY factor for
Shooting ?

Q3 – Did all of them (amerian) or some of them were sentenced ? If “yes” – HOW?

Q4 – Does anybody has a copy of official “shooting” order of Lt.Jack Bushyhead ?

Thank you.

ChristopherPerrien
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#5

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 08 Jan 2004, 18:03

Psycho Mike wrote:Sad story.

Actually the allies never attacked the train lines heading to the camps, even after every train line had been bombed. I have asked FDR supporters why we didn't.

I am still waiting for an answer.
It has been discussed and It has been "advertised :roll: " as one of the ways the Allies contributed :roll: to the Holocaust. Bunch of bs . Rail lines are impossible to shutdown for any length of time by dropping bombs, besides being hard to hit in the first place. Railroad tracks are easy to fix and replace/lay even if a couple bombs or a few hundred for that matter hit them.

I don't see why you single out FDR supporters, as that has nothing to do with the issue , and I am sure Roosevelt was more for the idea than people who understood what an airplane could do to this type of target.
This idea of bombing railheads was discussed at high levels, but I will add that there was a genral lack of belief in high Allied circles as to what was happening at the camps. Still it don't matter as bombing would have no good.

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#6

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 08 Jan 2004, 18:50

Q1 – How many german’s KZ were liberated by USA+UK regular troops with the same kind of
Dachau-execution scenario ?
Don's know what you mean by "Dachau execution scenario"
Q2 -- Was the fact of “ replaced Luftwaffe personnel” nature of camp guard – a KEY factor for
Shooting ?
There is no evidence to indicate that the remaining SS personnel at the Dachau complex on April 29th, 1945 (who were either too fanatic to escape or ordered to be the unlucky fall guys when the GI's arrived) were Luftwaffe personnel. Yes during the last months of the war Luftwaffe personnel were transferred into the SS, but then by definition they ceased to be Luftwaffe and became SS. But the career paths of the SS personnel at Dachau had nothing to do with the death train, coal yard or Tower B shooting incidents.
Q3 – Did all of them (amerian) or some of them were sentenced ? If “yes” – HOW?


The 7th Army Inspector General conducted an investigation into the incidents of illegal killings by GI's during the liberation of Dachau immediately following April 29th. This investigation lasted several weeks and the full report is in the US National Archives. The 7th A IG recommended that several soldiers and officers of the 45th Infantry Division receive disciplinary action. Patton declined to pursue any action. Case closed.
Q4 – Does anybody has a copy of official “shooting” order of Lt.Jack Bushyhead ?


There were no official orders to kill SS guards. They were spontaneous shootings - crimes of passion if you will - committed by a small number of GI's who were angered and sickened by the sight of the 2,000+ dead inmates on the "death train" just outside the KZ's protective custody compound and the sight of the 31,000 starved inmates inside it. And Buechner's account of Bushyhead's role in the shooting incidents is quite a tall tale which magically increases the shooting incident at the coal yard near the infirmary from 1 to 2 (i.e. 2 separate massacres in the same place) and the number of SS dead from 17 to 346. Go figure.

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photo

#7

Post by Aleksei22 » 08 Jan 2004, 19:03


Aleksei22
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#8

Post by Aleksei22 » 08 Jan 2004, 19:09

Hello,

_________________________

war Luftwaffe personnel were transferred into the SS

___________________________________________


Hmmmmmm .... Did it were possible ?

Do you have any legal photo of this "converted SS" personell wear? decoration ????? etc ....

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#9

Post by Aleksei22 » 08 Jan 2004, 20:11

Hello,

____________________________
Don's know what you mean by "Dachau execution scenario"
______________________________________


What I mean?

Does Dachau execution was inique event in KZ liberation (by US-GI) ?

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#10

Post by michael mills » 09 Jan 2004, 03:25

Rob-WSSOB wrote:
There is no evidence to indicate that the remaining SS personnel at the Dachau complex on April 29th, 1945 (who were either too fanatic to escape or ordered to be the unlucky fall guys when the GI's arrived) were Luftwaffe personnel. Yes during the last months of the war Luftwaffe personnel were transferred into the SS, but then by definition they ceased to be Luftwaffe and became SS.
Rob-WSSOB is engaging in obfuscation here.

The nub of the issue is that if Luftwaffe personnel were transferred to the Waffen-SS in the last months of the war, and posted to the guard companies at Dachau and other camps, then they were not responsible for anything that happened at those camps prior to their arrival. That is very important, since the mortality of prisoners from starvation, disease, exposure and ill-treatment, was the result of a process that had been going on for some time, either at Dachau itself or at the other camps from which the prisoners were transferred to Dachau; a guard who arrived at Dachau in the last few months before its surrender can hardly be held responsible for a situation in place at the time of his arrival.

Rob-WSSOB also fails to distinguish between the camp staff, responsible for the treatment of the prisoners, and the guard companies responsible for perimeter security. The latter bore only a minor responsibility for the treatment of the camp prisoners. Ex-Luftwaffe men drafted into the Waffen-SS and sent to Dachau went there as members of the guard companies, not as camp staff, who were a specialist group. In fact, most of the actual camp staff seem to have fled, leaving the guard companies to keep the prisoners from escaping.

Rob-WSSOB's view seems to be that anybody in SS uniform was fair game for summary retribution, since he must have been guilty of something. That is far from the truth.

My source for my statement that at the end of 1944 the existing camp guard companies were replaced by men transferred from the Luftwaffe is the book "Aspects of the Third Reich", edited by H W Koch, then a professor at the University of York (London, Macmillan, 1985). If Rob-WSSOB has any data that casts doubt on the credibility of thatook, he might consider posting it.[/quote]

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#11

Post by Georg_S » 09 Jan 2004, 10:47

Hello,

I have to ad some info about former Luftwaffe and Wehrmachtsoldiers who served in the SS. Allready as in 1943 a lot of Luftwaffe soldiers was moved over to the Waffen-SS, and older members was assigned to KL duty as it was in the early years of the war, when a lot of older Allgemeine-SS members took over the duties in KL, because that the younger ones where needed at the fronts.

One example is the Commandant at a subcamp of KL neuengamme, he (Otto Freyer) was Captain in the Wehrmacht or if it was Luftwaffe, when he was transffered to SS, he held the rank as SS-Hstuf (See picture) but he wasn´t a member of the SS and never recieved a SS-Number.

After the war he and later his son have tried to clear his name, because he was later removed as Kommandant because he wasn´t good as kommandant, he had to many feelings for the prisoners and he wasn´t harsh enough.

Reg,

Georg

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#12

Post by Aleksei22 » 10 Jan 2004, 15:09

Hello,


________________________________________________
but he wasn´t a member of the SS and never recieved a SS-Number.
____________________________________________________


Was it really possible to be 50% "pregnant" ?

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#13

Post by Georg_S » 10 Jan 2004, 15:51

you can check if you want,
he isn´t in any list I have on officers of the SS.
and that is pretty strange it´s self.

He isn´t either in any SS-DALs either, not any I have found anyway.

/Georg

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"list of persona-transfer"

#14

Post by Aleksei22 » 10 Jan 2004, 17:23

Hello,

____________________________________
you can check if you want,
he isn´t in any list I have on officers of the SS.
and that is pretty strange it´s self.

He isn´t either in any SS-DALs either, not any I have found anyway.

/Georg
______________________________________________



Do you know if any official "list of persona-transfer" ever existed ( Luftwaffe personell -->> SS-personell), whom all of them had to sign prior any change of professional war-duty ?

Thank you.

Aleksei22
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Q to Georg

#15

Post by Aleksei22 » 10 Jan 2004, 18:43

Hello,

Georg, is it possible to post high resolution photo of Otto Freyer ? 200-300 dpi ???

Thank you,

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