Hitler still lives, how could the coup still succeed?

[Deterance]

What planning could have been done before the July 1944 assasination attempt in in order to bring a successful coup against Hitler....even if he was still alive?

[Tim Smith]

The best way to take out Hitler would have been with a suicide bomber.

Stauffenberg should have set a five-second timer on the bomb, run at Hitler, thrown himself on top of the Fuhrer, and blown himself up - instead of just putting the bomb under the table and making his escape.

Unfortunately the plotters couldn't find someone willing to sacrifice his life in order to get Hitler.

With Hitler still alive there is no way the plot could succeed.

[Polynikes]

Von Stauffenberg should've pulled out his sidearm and emptied it into Hitler.

The SS guards would of course cut him down but he'd be sure. He could still have a bomb in his briefcasejust in case....the power of the bomb should've been bigger.

Cheers from Rich

[Sam H.]

I agree ... with Hitler alive, there is no way the plotters could have pulled off a successful coup.

[Deterance]

I agree ... with Hitler alive, there is no way the plotters could have pulled off a successful coup.

I would say with Hitler alive, the coup would of needed alot more 100% committed senior officers, but it could have been successful

-By July 1944, all but the most delusional NAZIS knew the war was lost.
-Many German senior Officers and Poltitical figures were probably on the fence about the coup and would support what ever side appeared to be winning.

Even Sepp Dietrich hinted to Rommel that he would be supportive David Irving
so...

Senior Generals Kluge (?), and Kesserling would need to be 100% commited to coup and to asking for a cease fire in France, Italy.
-Under the guise of anti partisan security, they get Batalion sized body guard of selected troops
-These bodyguards Kill small groups of Gestapo, SS diehards trying to enforce Fuherer arrest orders.

German Home Army commander supports coup and mobilizes troops to secure rail links. (Especially those around Berlin and seat of new alternative government).
-Added bonus...Few dedicated NAZIS in home guard units

Alternate Quasi civilian government is immedialty proclaimed in a Barvarian or other city where pre war Nazi support was weak.
-hopefully mayors and divisional commanders rally to any viable alternative government.
-New government isolates and destroys NAZI loyalists.
-Probably not too many of these, many mid level political NAZI bueracrats desert the sinking ship.
-SS Combat diehards are at the fronts, and they are emotionaly and physically exhausted as well, might want alternative future offered by new govt.

[Panzer94]

Didn't Hitler himself say that a real man would have just walked up and shot him(Hitler). Staffenburg,while indeed putting his life on the line,was kind of a coward for trying to escape. If he wanted to kill Hitler,he should've also given his life for his cause...IMO.

[Alecci]

No side-arms were allowed in the vicinity of Hitler, and therefore Graf Stauffenberg would not have been able to use one.

Graf Stauffenberg was a seriously disabled fighting man, and him having only three fingers do not struck me as a positive thing. In combination with the fact that he would have to aim at Hitler's head or neck (since he were often wearing protective clothing) and that alert guards might prevent a well-aimed shot, I think the chance of success using a pistol or small fire-arm of any kind was very small.

Graf Stauffenberg had to survive the coup. Events during the assassination attempts just before 20 July 1944 illustrates the need and importance of having a strong personality in authority in Berlin to control, direct the coup and also to command the diverse military forces. General Friedrich Olbricht was not such a personality, Colonel (GS) Albrecht Ritter Mertz von Quirnheim's position did not give him sufficient authority, Colonel-General Fritz Fromm could not be expected to do more than accept the coup. Colonel-Generals (Ret.) Ludwig Beck and Erich Hoepner held no posts at all, just like Fieldmarshal (Ret.) Erwin von Witzleben.

The best way to take out Hitler would indeed have been using a suicide bomber. Now, this isn't a thing you go buy in the local grocery store. Still, the conspirators managed to convince many a man to sacrifice himself in an assassination attempt. For example I might mention Colonel (GS) Rudolph-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff, Captain Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst or Lieutenant Ewald von Kleist. All of whom had agreed to act as suicide assassins, but they all had one flaw in common. None of them had regular access to Hitler.

To make a long story short, there were only two officers who had regular access to Hitler, and thereby any realistic prospect of ending his life, and those officers were Graf Stauffenberg and Major-General Helmuth Stieff. Stieff had more regular access to Hitler than did Graf Stauffenberg, and in addition Stieff was not indispensable for the operation in Berlin. Thus the optimal choice would have been to use Stieff as a suicide assassin. Stieff was not up to the task, however, first requesting that he join another conspirator in an attempt and second withdraw entirely from his mission, and even trying to stop Graf Stauffenberg from completing his.

Graf Stauffenberg knew that he was in no way an ideal assassin. His method of assassination was not determined only by his physical handicaps. If there was to be any real prospect of a successful uprising, he had to survive and return to Berlin to lead the insurrection. Beck indeed ordered Graf Stauffenberg not to attempt the assassination unless he thought he could survive it. Graf Stauffenberg indeed volunteered to blew himself up together with Hitler, but even he could see the need for a capable leader in Berlin if the uprising was to be successful.

In addition to all this, Graf Stauffenberg had little hope of success or survival. He also said that he knew that the only one who had the courage to do something about the situation would go down in German history as a traitor and coward. Many people today show a lacking of understanding for a man to which name and honour meant something, and who eventually sacrificed both for the most thankless task in the conspiracy. Graf Stauffenberg knew that there would be no room for the assassin in the new order, had the coup succeeded.

With Hitler alive, the coup could still have succeeded. The conspirators would have needed more time however, and they were also in need of better information. Had they had these two things, they would have been able to seize Berlin, occupy the national radio stations, use the broadcasts to bring the population all over Germany into the streets and setting in motion a general revolt. All this while Hitler's headquarters in East Prussia is isolated by a cavalry division, commanded by Colonel Georg Freiherr von Boeselager, rapidly flown in from the eastern front. Reinforced by the armoured training battaltion of Meiningen, under the command of Major Roland von Hösslin, the cavalry division would charge the headquarters and finish off Hitler and his immediate co-workers or arrest them. As things went, however, the conspirators had not the time to do this, and they also lacked crucial operation information to make their moves hit harder and more on the spot.

[Andy H]

Alecci wrote:

In combination with the fact that he would have to aim at Hitler's head or neck (since he were often wearing protective clothing)

Do you have any further details on this protective clothing he often wore?

Andy H

[Tim Smith]

Graf Stauffenberg had to survive the coup. If there was to be any real prospect of a successful uprising, he had to survive and return to Berlin to lead the insurrection. Beck indeed ordered Graf Stauffenberg not to attempt the assassination unless he thought he could survive it. Graf Stauffenberg indeed volunteered to blew himself up together with Hitler, but even he could see the need for a capable leader in Berlin if the uprising was to be successful.

Surprising that Graf Stauffenberg had a vital role in the coup after the assassination attempt - that is short-sighted planning. He was only a colonel, and very unlikely to survive the attempt in any case. He should not have been assigned any other duties other than killing Hitler.

[Alecci]

Andy H:

If I'm not mistaken, that protective clothing would constitute a bullet-proof vest or something of that sort, and at times he even wore an armored cap.

Tim Smith:

I'm not disputing your statement that it was bad planning, but what other choice did they have? Like I previously wrote, with only two conspirators having regular access to Hitler, their choice was somewhat limited to say the least. Since one of them, Stieff, was not up to the task, it naturally fell upon the shoulders of Graf Stauffenberg. Many a member of the resistance was astonished at the fact that persons such as Stieff, with the rank of general, could not kill Hitler while so many younger and junior officers had volunteered. Indeed, Graf Stauffenberg got very upset when Stieff rejected the chance and opportunity to kill Hitler, and angrily exclaimed that "I will do it myself with my three fingers".

While he certainly had no deathwish, Graf Stauffenberg was prepared to pay the ultimate price for ridding the world of Hitler. He and other members of the resistance, however, did not see this as the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal was to end the war and save lives, to stop the crimes against humanity committed in the name of the German nation and bring the perepetrators of said crimes to justice. They thought that Hitler's death alone would not accomplish this, and thus they wished to ensure the success of a coup d'etat. The assassination and the uprising both had very little chance of success, yet the conspirators felt obligated to attempt them in any case.

I do not, however, think it's surprising that Graf Stauffenberg had such a vital role in the coup d'etat. He was the one mainly responsible for the Walchüre II orders, the only committed member of the resistance with sufficient authority to execute them and in addition the only person with the right sort and amount of leadership qualities needed to master the uprising. One should not rule of the importance in dealing with other high ranking officers when it comes to a colonel whose advice was sought by both the Chief of the General Staff as well as the leadership of the Heer at large when he was still a captain.

I don't know about you other gentlemen, but as far as I know Graf Stauffenberg was the only officer of the German armed forces nick-named "the new Schlieffen". In a fitness report on him written at the point of his permanent posting to the General Staff in 1939, his qualities and capabilities amounts to a point where the HPA recognize his potential to end his career as either Chief of the General Staff, Commander-in-Chief of the Army or Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. Lieutenant-General Adolf Heusinger, who later became Inspector-General of the Federal German Armed Forces, once called him "the only German General Staff officer of genius". Hitler himself advised many of his subordinates, particularly Reichsminister Albert Speer, to collaborate closely with Graf Stauffenberg. The Chief of HPA, Major-General Rudolph Schmundt, in early 1944 told Speer that Graf Stauffenberg was considered to be one of the most efficient and able officers in the Wehrmacht. My point in mentioning all this, is that you should not underestimate the impact Graf Stauffenberg could have had in persuading other senior army officers to join the uprising or at least following the conspirator's orders, because of him only being a colonel (GS).

My conclusion is, that Graf Stauffenberg should not have been assigned the task of assassinating Hitler at all, but instead he should have been the leader of the coup d'etat following said assassination. As Fate would have it, however, in the end the conspirators were left with little choice, and Graf Stauffenberg, though haunted by bad luck when it comes to the assassination, did the best any other person in his situation cold have done.

Please just allow me to add, that the intention was to kill everyone in the briefing room, as the assassin could not be certain of Hitler's position in relation to the bomb at the time of explosion. Graf Stauffenberg indeed had two bombs with him on 20 July 1944, but because of a phone call from General Erich Fellgiebel which resulted in a message delivered by a special missions officer to Fieldmarshal Wilhelm Keitel's adjutant, Major (GS) Ernst John von Freyend, Graf Stauffenberg and his adjutant Lieutenant (Res.) Werner von Haeften were prevented from arming the second charge. Had the second charge only been left in Graf Stauffenberg's briefcase, there is no doubt that everyone in the briefing room would have been killed on the spot. As things turned out, however, the second charge was not armed or even put in his briefcase. This was a flaw in the execution of the plan.

[Deterance]

All this while Hitler's headquarters in East Prussia is isolated by a cavalry division, commanded by Colonel Georg Freiherr von Boeselager, rapidly flown in from the eastern front. Reinforced by the armoured training battaltion of Meiningen .

Alecci,

Decapitating Hitlers Headquarters would be the best plan, what are the chances that the Cavalry Division could be flown in from the Eastern Front? This would need alot of active Luftwaffe assistance while the alive Hitler is broadcasting on the radio.

Could the armored training batalion muster enough pro coup men to kill Hitler's SS bodyguards before he summoned help? Did'nt Hitler have at least an infantry batalion of SS guards and could summon help from local paramilitary units (East Prussia was known as pro Nazi state)

Do you think it would be better to set up an alternative government immediatly following the attempt at a protected Headquarters on the Western Front and not Berlin where coup members could be overwhelmed by a few number of Hitler police loyalists.

Then the government gain military support, and move to a city (Preferably where Nazi support was weak) with in days and call for a peoples' revolution. 8)

But then how to kill, capture Hitler and key loyalists quickly?



.

[Alecci]

Deterance:

The point is that Hitler would not be broadcasting on the radio, since the Inspector-General of Wehrmacht communications, General Erich Fellgiebel, and some of his trusted subordinates, Colonel (GS) Kurt Hassel (Fellgiebel's Chief of Staff) and Lieutenant-General Fritz Thiele (Inspector-General of Army Communications), would see to it that no broadcasts would be sent from Wolfsschanze.

As for the personnel of the armoured training battalion at Meiningen I have no information, but I'm pretty sure the conspirators had more reasons than a battalion commander who was a member of the conspiracy to use that particular unit.

As far as I know, Wolfsschanze only had a company of SS-soldiers guarding the headquarters. At least that is the indication given by all of my sources. The armoured training battalion would also in time be joined in their mission by the 3rd Cavalry Brigade (my mistake, not a whole division), and I think that force would suffice.

Since the movement of those troops would be ordered by Major-General Henning von Tresckow (Chief of Staff of the 2nd Army) with the support of the Commander-in-Chief of the Reserve Army, I think that the conspirators would have been able to move said troops since no counter-orders would come from Wolfsschanze. After all, the orders would in such case come through the established chain of command, and as such they would probably be followed.

As things turned out, none of these things were accomplished, mainly because Hitler was alive and Wolfsschanze had communication capabilities enough to prevent it had they tried.

The plan, however, was that Hitler would not survive the assassination attempt, and these measures would consitute to something of a plan B. I tend to, however, believe that the conspirators had some reasons to believe that this plan might be successful.

The reason that the coup so quickly collapsed had less to do with Hitler's survival than the fact that the conspirators were unable to control communications long enough to establish a power position in Berlin and the various Military Area Commands (Wehrkreise).

[Deterance]

Alecci,

Thanks for the detailed information about the plans for the coup and about the brave men behind it.

Do you know what prevented the armoured batalion from moving on the Wolf's Lair immediatly following the blast? Even if Hitler was killed, they were still needed to arrest senior regime loyalists as well as to verify Hitler's death.

They probazbly could have penetrated deep into the compound under the guise of rendering assitance. If they had problems, there was only a SS guard company on site.

[GFM2000]

Unfortunately the plotters couldn't find someone willing to sacrifice his life in order to get Hitler.

Wasn't a certain Colonel von Gersdorff willing to sacrifise himself by explosing two bombs hidden in his coat, when Hitler was making an inspection in the Eastern Front in 1943?

[Deterance]

Unfortunately the plotters couldn't find someone willing to sacrifice his life in order to get Hitler.

Wasn't a certain Colonel von Gersdorff willing to sacrifise himself by explosing two bombs hidden in his coat, when Hitler was making an inspection in the Eastern Front in 1943?

Yes,

I am unsure how serious the plans were. (If the planning was theoretical or if the attempt was 100% ready)

I believe that Hitler was going to make an inspection of new, winterized German equipment. (Or maybe captured Soviet equipment)

The inspection was cancelled so the attempt never took place. The cancellation had nothing to do with security concerns by Hitler, it was just bad luck.