I have an OOB for the Italian army dated 8/9/43 for divison/corps/army.
I was wondering if there was a site/ reference that summarised the fate of each of thes division on and immediately after the Italian surrender.
ie disbanded, joined partisans, fought Germans, joined allies, joined Germans.
I know that in the Blkans especially the situation was confusing but any help would be much appreciated.
NB this is a follow up to my post on germans fighting the Italians in 1943. I have a sfar as possible foolowed up the sources suggested there.
Fate of Italian army units 9/43
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Lupo Solitario
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sincerly it's quite a difficult question... there's not website about it, I collected many data but by many different sources.
Overall it's rare that an entire division had chosen same destiny...usually there had been some people here and some people there, overall there's always a lot of rhetorics to manage. Keep an eye
Anyway if you need specific indications, ask
bye
Lupo
Overall it's rare that an entire division had chosen same destiny...usually there had been some people here and some people there, overall there's always a lot of rhetorics to manage. Keep an eye
Anyway if you need specific indications, ask
bye
Lupo
I assumed it would be a large and complex question.
My interest was in part due to seeing such comments as
In sept 1943 the division chose to remain with the axis, in reference to the 11th Brennero Infantry division
it defected to the Greek ELAS partisans, with regard to the 24th Pinerolo Infantry division
it surrendered to the Allies on their invasion of Sardinia, the 31st Calabria Infantry division.
it fought against the Germans until overwhelmed and disbanded, the 132nd Ariete armoured Division (2nd formation)
I can see how in many cases individuals or small units could make their choices but the above suggest that some higher, ie divisional or above, level decisions were made and apparently followed. Were these decisions actually followed by organised units such as divisions? and were such decisions generaly followed?
Or are the above comments more a "short hand" for what happened to identifiable elements of a division. In none of the examples given have I seen a unit strength on 8/9/43 and an account of the number of men then involved in, say, joining the partisans or fighting the Germans.
What was the general German policy with regard to Italian units at the time of the Armistice?
Did they allow units to disband and the men depart as long as the weapons were handed over?
Did they take Italians as prisoners of war? and if so were these only from units that resisted?
Was any account taken of where a soldier lived ie if he came from what was now Allied territory was he made a P O W?
What guidance was given to German commanders with regard to handling Italian units?
Were any instructions provided as part of the German Operation Axis
It is a very complicated and confusing ... and fascinating .. period. I hope that some generalisations will be possible
Thanks for any help given and especially thank you Lupo for helping to make aspects of Italy in WW2 more accessable.
My interest was in part due to seeing such comments as
In sept 1943 the division chose to remain with the axis, in reference to the 11th Brennero Infantry division
it defected to the Greek ELAS partisans, with regard to the 24th Pinerolo Infantry division
it surrendered to the Allies on their invasion of Sardinia, the 31st Calabria Infantry division.
it fought against the Germans until overwhelmed and disbanded, the 132nd Ariete armoured Division (2nd formation)
I can see how in many cases individuals or small units could make their choices but the above suggest that some higher, ie divisional or above, level decisions were made and apparently followed. Were these decisions actually followed by organised units such as divisions? and were such decisions generaly followed?
Or are the above comments more a "short hand" for what happened to identifiable elements of a division. In none of the examples given have I seen a unit strength on 8/9/43 and an account of the number of men then involved in, say, joining the partisans or fighting the Germans.
What was the general German policy with regard to Italian units at the time of the Armistice?
Did they allow units to disband and the men depart as long as the weapons were handed over?
Did they take Italians as prisoners of war? and if so were these only from units that resisted?
Was any account taken of where a soldier lived ie if he came from what was now Allied territory was he made a P O W?
What guidance was given to German commanders with regard to handling Italian units?
Were any instructions provided as part of the German Operation Axis
It is a very complicated and confusing ... and fascinating .. period. I hope that some generalisations will be possible
Thanks for any help given and especially thank you Lupo for helping to make aspects of Italy in WW2 more accessable.
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Georges M. Croisier
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- Location: SWITZERLAND
Italian's unit after 09/1943
The order was clear (Operation Achse):
eather surrending or being destroyed
The Division Acqui (General Antonio Gandin) was annilihated by the 98/I Gebirgsjäger at Cephalonia island (Greece). After capture, most of the POW's (mostly the officiers) were executed.
The same fate happened to the Division Bergamo (General Cigala-Fulgosi). This unit refused to surrender at Split (Yugoslavia) to the 7.SS-Freiw. Geb. Div. Prinz-Eugen. All the captured officers were executed.
eather surrending or being destroyed
The Division Acqui (General Antonio Gandin) was annilihated by the 98/I Gebirgsjäger at Cephalonia island (Greece). After capture, most of the POW's (mostly the officiers) were executed.
The same fate happened to the Division Bergamo (General Cigala-Fulgosi). This unit refused to surrender at Split (Yugoslavia) to the 7.SS-Freiw. Geb. Div. Prinz-Eugen. All the captured officers were executed.
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Lupo Solitario
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- Posts: 1143
- Joined: 21 Mar 2002, 19:39
- Location: Italy, country of sun, wine and morons
oh, well, the question is how much divisional command had been capable to have control on depending unit. Second it depended by where and how the unit was deployed. Third by which kind of unit was.
In general, units in Balkans. being outside italy, served union and discpline more than units in italy. Reason is evident: an italian in italy can try to reach home, anyway. In Balkans you have only enemies everywhere.
Another trouble was the cut of gerarchic system. A "classical" example: notwithstanding opposite orders, 11th Army commander in Greece surrended to Germans the morning of September 9th, leaving all depending units in trouble about which order had to be followed.
Told this, let's see your examples:
In sept 1943 the division chose to remain with the axis, in reference to the 11th Brennero Infantry division
The division had served the union and spent all september 1943, going up and down for Albania. Being without orders and without supply, gave weapons to germans and was lifted away (in internation camps, I suppose, cause I have no trace about a their employment after october 1943)
it defected to the Greek ELAS partisans, with regard to the 24th Pinerolo Infantry division
The commander of Division, Gen. Infante, decided to fight germans and trasformed its unit in a partisan force
it surrendered to the Allies on their invasion of Sardinia, the 31st Calabria Infantry division.
nonsense, allies never "invaded" Sardinia, simply landed some unit after that germans had retired their garrison. Sardinia rested always under italian government and italian units there had never been disarmed or dissolved, the only "surrender" was that of Italy in general. "Calabria" division was employed in internal security duties in 1944-45
it fought against the Germans until overwhelmed and disbanded, the 132nd Ariete armoured Division (2nd formation)
First of all, it was the 135th division. The unit fought against germans 9-10 september, after that the division broke contact when the city of Rome surrended. To avoid capture, the commander, Gen. Cadorna, decided to disband unit and destroy weapons before german arrival
I can see how in many cases individuals or small units could make their choices but the above suggest that some higher, ie divisional or above, level decisions were made and apparently followed. Were these decisions actually followed by organised units such as divisions? and were such decisions generaly followed?
As I told, it's difficult giving a rule; good commanders were followed, bad commanders run for first, abandoning their men (it's unpleasant to tell they had been a lot). It's not reported a single opposition by entire italian garrison of Peloponnesos.
Or are the above comments more a "short hand" for what happened to identifiable elements of a division. In none of the examples given have I seen a unit strength on 8/9/43 and an account of the number of men then involved in, say, joining the partisans or fighting the Germans.
Again, hard question. Documents are scarce. More, there's a silence curtain about many units which had joined germans. It had to be told that joining german was certainly the easier way to have food and supplies.
What was the general German policy with regard to Italian units at the time of the Armistice?
surrender or die. Each unit which tried to oppose germans had to suffer hard slaughters, at least in balkans
Did they allow units to disband and the men depart as long as the weapons were handed over?
It depends. In italy there was a debate between, IIRC, Rommel who wanted not to have a lot of people to manage and let italian soldier go and Kesselring who wanted to send soldiers as manpower in germany (or the opposite, I don't remmeber). In Balkans, they had been packed and sent in germany apart people needed for local service. At last, 600000 italian soldiers had been sent in Germany
Did they take Italians as prisoners of war?
No, they were called "military interned" and not protected by Geneve conventions
and if so were these only from units that resisted?
No, it was usual shot the officers and use soldiers as manpower. I met a Cefalonia survivor who had been sent on russian front as HiWi (cutting trees at Smolensk, he told)
Was any account taken of where a soldier lived ie if he came from what was now Allied territory was he made a P O W?
No, being italian was the only factor. It should be told that either italian governments of 1943-45 considered themselves as rulers of entire italian territory and as "invaded" the area under enemy control
What guidance was given to German commanders with regard to handling Italian units?
In a word, be hard. The instruction was to use diplomacy when in inferiority and strenght in other cases
Were any instructions provided as part of the German Operation Axis
A lot but I have not them at hand now
At your dispo
Lupo
In general, units in Balkans. being outside italy, served union and discpline more than units in italy. Reason is evident: an italian in italy can try to reach home, anyway. In Balkans you have only enemies everywhere.
Another trouble was the cut of gerarchic system. A "classical" example: notwithstanding opposite orders, 11th Army commander in Greece surrended to Germans the morning of September 9th, leaving all depending units in trouble about which order had to be followed.
Told this, let's see your examples:
In sept 1943 the division chose to remain with the axis, in reference to the 11th Brennero Infantry division
The division had served the union and spent all september 1943, going up and down for Albania. Being without orders and without supply, gave weapons to germans and was lifted away (in internation camps, I suppose, cause I have no trace about a their employment after october 1943)
it defected to the Greek ELAS partisans, with regard to the 24th Pinerolo Infantry division
The commander of Division, Gen. Infante, decided to fight germans and trasformed its unit in a partisan force
it surrendered to the Allies on their invasion of Sardinia, the 31st Calabria Infantry division.
nonsense, allies never "invaded" Sardinia, simply landed some unit after that germans had retired their garrison. Sardinia rested always under italian government and italian units there had never been disarmed or dissolved, the only "surrender" was that of Italy in general. "Calabria" division was employed in internal security duties in 1944-45
it fought against the Germans until overwhelmed and disbanded, the 132nd Ariete armoured Division (2nd formation)
First of all, it was the 135th division. The unit fought against germans 9-10 september, after that the division broke contact when the city of Rome surrended. To avoid capture, the commander, Gen. Cadorna, decided to disband unit and destroy weapons before german arrival
I can see how in many cases individuals or small units could make their choices but the above suggest that some higher, ie divisional or above, level decisions were made and apparently followed. Were these decisions actually followed by organised units such as divisions? and were such decisions generaly followed?
As I told, it's difficult giving a rule; good commanders were followed, bad commanders run for first, abandoning their men (it's unpleasant to tell they had been a lot). It's not reported a single opposition by entire italian garrison of Peloponnesos.
Or are the above comments more a "short hand" for what happened to identifiable elements of a division. In none of the examples given have I seen a unit strength on 8/9/43 and an account of the number of men then involved in, say, joining the partisans or fighting the Germans.
Again, hard question. Documents are scarce. More, there's a silence curtain about many units which had joined germans. It had to be told that joining german was certainly the easier way to have food and supplies.
What was the general German policy with regard to Italian units at the time of the Armistice?
surrender or die. Each unit which tried to oppose germans had to suffer hard slaughters, at least in balkans
Did they allow units to disband and the men depart as long as the weapons were handed over?
It depends. In italy there was a debate between, IIRC, Rommel who wanted not to have a lot of people to manage and let italian soldier go and Kesselring who wanted to send soldiers as manpower in germany (or the opposite, I don't remmeber). In Balkans, they had been packed and sent in germany apart people needed for local service. At last, 600000 italian soldiers had been sent in Germany
Did they take Italians as prisoners of war?
No, they were called "military interned" and not protected by Geneve conventions
and if so were these only from units that resisted?
No, it was usual shot the officers and use soldiers as manpower. I met a Cefalonia survivor who had been sent on russian front as HiWi (cutting trees at Smolensk, he told)
Was any account taken of where a soldier lived ie if he came from what was now Allied territory was he made a P O W?
No, being italian was the only factor. It should be told that either italian governments of 1943-45 considered themselves as rulers of entire italian territory and as "invaded" the area under enemy control
What guidance was given to German commanders with regard to handling Italian units?
In a word, be hard. The instruction was to use diplomacy when in inferiority and strenght in other cases
Were any instructions provided as part of the German Operation Axis
A lot but I have not them at hand now
At your dispo
Lupo
The first chapter of the tomes of Nino Arena about the RSI there are many detailed info about the armistice of 8 Sept. 1943.
- interned : 749,000
- cohoperators as fighting units: 42,000 (of wich 36,000 in the Balkans)
- cohoperators as non-fighting auxiliaries units: 127,000
- partizans from the Army: 20,000
- still armed in Southern Italy and Islands (Sardinia, Corsica): 240,000 [these units then joined the Allies or disbanded, my note]
Unites potentially enemy [of Germany]: Divisions Cremona and Friuli, 10,000 men of the garrison of Bari, 650,000 men in the areas controlled by the Allies.
In Sardinia and Corsica the Italian units kept control of the islands, there were some incidents (mostly in Corsica).
In South East France the 4th Army was disarmed by the 19th German Army without incidents.
In Northern Italy part of the 4th Army and the 8th Army were disarmed by the Heersgruppe B of Rommel and their soldiers interned in Germany, instead in Center-South Italy Kesselring let disarmed Italians free.
In Greece the 11th Army (gen. Vecchiarelli) made an agreement with the Heersgruppe F: Italian divisions will exchange their occupation areas with Germans and give to them their heavy equipment, then they will be repatriated in Italy. These conditions were almost always respected, except for Pinerolo and Acqui div. (the latter after an order given by Badoglio).
In the Balkans and Aegean Islands the Italian units (Army Group Est (gen. Rosi), Albania (gen. Dalmazzo), Italian Aegean Islands (adm. Campioni), Dalmatia (gen. Piazzoni), Montenegro (gen. Roncaglia), XXIV Army Corps in North Croatia and Venezia Giulia (gen. Zannini)) made this agreement with Heersgruppe E: partial disarm, Italians have to give their artillery (except 1 battery per each Art. Regiment) and armoured vehicles. Supplies storages will be under Italian control, but if the Allies or partizans attack, they will be given to the Germans or destroyed. No help will be given to the Allies or partizans.
But in the night of 12 Sept. the Germans, following an order of the OKW, alarmed by the behaivour of some Italian units (Pinerolo in Greece, but also Venezia and Taurinenese), broke the pact and arrested the Italian officers, disarmed the troop (with many incidents) and transferred them in Germany.
Summary: of the about 700,000 Italians interned, 15% accepted to join the Wehrmacht or the RSI and 70% accepted the status of free workers after the agreement of Guben (Aug. 1944); the rest (15%) lost its status of military interned and became PoWs as soldiers of the Kingdom of Italy (that had declared war on Germany on 13 Oct. 1943, but that govern wasn't recognized by Germany).
Of the about 500,000 still in service in Southern Italy, Corsica and Sardinia, 85% became part of logistic and internal security units, while a total of 50,000 (at the maximum strenght, at the beginning far less) were allowed to join the 1° Raggruppamento Motorizzato Italiano and then the CIL (Corpo Italiano di Liberazione), Dec. 1943, and then the 6 Gruppi di Combattimento (Fighting Gruops, units of the strenght of a Brigade or a small Division) created in autumn 1944.
I have the list of the Italian units that joined the Germans, I'll post it later.
After having quoted that document, Arena summarizes the situation:Relation of the OKW about the disarm of Italian Armed Forces (OKW/GS/H n.6348/43 g.Kmdos)
At the date of 8 Sept. 1943 the It.Arm.Forces were made of 83 divisions with a total of 1,520,000 men then disarmed, subdivision:
- North Italy & South France (20 divisions): 480,000
330,000 interned, 23,000 cohoperators, the rest disbanded in Switzerland and Italy.
- Center-South Italy (23 divisions): 400,000
100,000 prisoners of which 2,000 interned and 1,300 cohoperators, the rest free.
- Sardinia & Corsica (9 divisions): 170,000
3,500 cohoperators.
- Croatia (31 divisions) included Balkans/Crete: 500,000
380,000 interned, 90,000 cohoperators, 4,000 disbanded that joined the bands of divisions Isonzo, Bergamo and Zara.
- Montenegro & Albania
11,000 interned, 2,200 cohoperators, the rest passed to the communist [sic!] bands belonging to the divisions Arezzo, Taurinense, Ferrara, Emilia, Venezia, Parma and Firenze.
- Greece (8 divisions): 240,000
26,000 interned, 29,000 cohoperators, 5,000 disbanded (Pinerolo)
- Aegean islands (2 divisions): 153,000
23,700 interned, 8,500 cohoperators, 1,100 disbanded in Turkey.
- interned : 749,000
- cohoperators as fighting units: 42,000 (of wich 36,000 in the Balkans)
- cohoperators as non-fighting auxiliaries units: 127,000
- partizans from the Army: 20,000
- still armed in Southern Italy and Islands (Sardinia, Corsica): 240,000 [these units then joined the Allies or disbanded, my note]
Unites potentially enemy [of Germany]: Divisions Cremona and Friuli, 10,000 men of the garrison of Bari, 650,000 men in the areas controlled by the Allies.
In Sardinia and Corsica the Italian units kept control of the islands, there were some incidents (mostly in Corsica).
In South East France the 4th Army was disarmed by the 19th German Army without incidents.
In Northern Italy part of the 4th Army and the 8th Army were disarmed by the Heersgruppe B of Rommel and their soldiers interned in Germany, instead in Center-South Italy Kesselring let disarmed Italians free.
In Greece the 11th Army (gen. Vecchiarelli) made an agreement with the Heersgruppe F: Italian divisions will exchange their occupation areas with Germans and give to them their heavy equipment, then they will be repatriated in Italy. These conditions were almost always respected, except for Pinerolo and Acqui div. (the latter after an order given by Badoglio).
In the Balkans and Aegean Islands the Italian units (Army Group Est (gen. Rosi), Albania (gen. Dalmazzo), Italian Aegean Islands (adm. Campioni), Dalmatia (gen. Piazzoni), Montenegro (gen. Roncaglia), XXIV Army Corps in North Croatia and Venezia Giulia (gen. Zannini)) made this agreement with Heersgruppe E: partial disarm, Italians have to give their artillery (except 1 battery per each Art. Regiment) and armoured vehicles. Supplies storages will be under Italian control, but if the Allies or partizans attack, they will be given to the Germans or destroyed. No help will be given to the Allies or partizans.
But in the night of 12 Sept. the Germans, following an order of the OKW, alarmed by the behaivour of some Italian units (Pinerolo in Greece, but also Venezia and Taurinenese), broke the pact and arrested the Italian officers, disarmed the troop (with many incidents) and transferred them in Germany.
Summary: of the about 700,000 Italians interned, 15% accepted to join the Wehrmacht or the RSI and 70% accepted the status of free workers after the agreement of Guben (Aug. 1944); the rest (15%) lost its status of military interned and became PoWs as soldiers of the Kingdom of Italy (that had declared war on Germany on 13 Oct. 1943, but that govern wasn't recognized by Germany).
Of the about 500,000 still in service in Southern Italy, Corsica and Sardinia, 85% became part of logistic and internal security units, while a total of 50,000 (at the maximum strenght, at the beginning far less) were allowed to join the 1° Raggruppamento Motorizzato Italiano and then the CIL (Corpo Italiano di Liberazione), Dec. 1943, and then the 6 Gruppi di Combattimento (Fighting Gruops, units of the strenght of a Brigade or a small Division) created in autumn 1944.
I have the list of the Italian units that joined the Germans, I'll post it later.
Italian Army units that sided with Germany
Italy
- XII/184° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- part of XIII/184° Rgt. and XIV/184° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- III/185° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- 1^/II/184° Rgt. Art. parachutists "Nembo"
- XX/182° Rgt. parachutists "Ciclone"
- companies 111^,131^,132^,133^ Arditi parachutists of the 10° Rgt. Arditi
- CC.NN. (blackshirts) battalions: 6°, 12°, 16°, 30°, 63°, 79°, 91°
- CC.NN. legions: 5^, 58^, 60^, 61^, 112^, 120^
- ufficers school of the MVSN
- 1^ btr./7° Rgt. Art. in Lucca
- various reparts of the MVSN, Carabinieri, Guardia di Finanza
- PAI (Polizia dell'Africa Italiana): Btg. "Cheren" and "Gessi"
Balkans, Aegean, Crete
- various reparts of these divisions: "Regina", "Cuneo", "Siena", "Modena", "Brennero", "Taurinense", "Piemonte", "Acqui", "Lombardia", "Cacciatori", "Zara"
- 2° Sqdn. L Tankettes "San Giusto"
- II/24° Rgt. Art. in Zante
- III/31° tank Rgt. in Podgorica
- Cavalry Rgt. "Lucca"
- CC.NN. battalions: 19°, 33°, 40°, 53°, 81°, 82°, 92°, 106°, 141°, 144°
- CC.NN. legions: 2^, 24^, 49^, 72^, 86^, 92^, 201^, 207^
- 13° Rgpt. (raggruppamento? it's unclear)
- 49° infantry Rgt.
- 60° AA group
- 3° Art. group
- cavalry Rgt. "Lancieri Firenze"
- 3° armoured group "Nizza"
- "1^ Celere" division
- 9° infantry Rgt.
- 4° engineers Rgt.
- 50° Art. Rgt.
- 57° Art. Rgt.
- 347° infantry Rgt.
- 33° Art. Rgt.
- 333° Art. Rgt.
- 129° infantry Rgt.
- 2° artillery Rgt. of GAF (Guardia Alla Frontiera = Border Guards)
- 232° infantry Rgt.
- 547^ AA battery
- 29° engineers Btg.
- 59^ company telegraph engineers
- 152° infantry Rgt.
- 18° infantry Rgt.
- MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti Comunista)
France, Corsica
- various reparts of these units: "Friuli", "Cremona", "2^ Celere", "Granatieri di Sardegna", "Val Pusteria"
- CC.NN. battalions: 42°, 50°, 55°
- CC.NN. legions: 88^, 90^
- 6° heavy artillery group
- 20 Gr./42° Rgt. Art.
- garrison of Betasom base (Bordeaux)
Romania
- garrison of Costanza/Eforie base
Germany
- Nebbiogeni (fog-layer) Btg. in Wilhelmshaven, Swinemunde, Usedom, Wollin, Gotehaven-Gdynia, Zeitz
- various commands
China
- Btg. San Marco in Tientsin
Italy
- XII/184° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- part of XIII/184° Rgt. and XIV/184° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- III/185° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- 1^/II/184° Rgt. Art. parachutists "Nembo"
- XX/182° Rgt. parachutists "Ciclone"
- companies 111^,131^,132^,133^ Arditi parachutists of the 10° Rgt. Arditi
- CC.NN. (blackshirts) battalions: 6°, 12°, 16°, 30°, 63°, 79°, 91°
- CC.NN. legions: 5^, 58^, 60^, 61^, 112^, 120^
- ufficers school of the MVSN
- 1^ btr./7° Rgt. Art. in Lucca
- various reparts of the MVSN, Carabinieri, Guardia di Finanza
- PAI (Polizia dell'Africa Italiana): Btg. "Cheren" and "Gessi"
Balkans, Aegean, Crete
- various reparts of these divisions: "Regina", "Cuneo", "Siena", "Modena", "Brennero", "Taurinense", "Piemonte", "Acqui", "Lombardia", "Cacciatori", "Zara"
- 2° Sqdn. L Tankettes "San Giusto"
- II/24° Rgt. Art. in Zante
- III/31° tank Rgt. in Podgorica
- Cavalry Rgt. "Lucca"
- CC.NN. battalions: 19°, 33°, 40°, 53°, 81°, 82°, 92°, 106°, 141°, 144°
- CC.NN. legions: 2^, 24^, 49^, 72^, 86^, 92^, 201^, 207^
- 13° Rgpt. (raggruppamento? it's unclear)
- 49° infantry Rgt.
- 60° AA group
- 3° Art. group
- cavalry Rgt. "Lancieri Firenze"
- 3° armoured group "Nizza"
- "1^ Celere" division
- 9° infantry Rgt.
- 4° engineers Rgt.
- 50° Art. Rgt.
- 57° Art. Rgt.
- 347° infantry Rgt.
- 33° Art. Rgt.
- 333° Art. Rgt.
- 129° infantry Rgt.
- 2° artillery Rgt. of GAF (Guardia Alla Frontiera = Border Guards)
- 232° infantry Rgt.
- 547^ AA battery
- 29° engineers Btg.
- 59^ company telegraph engineers
- 152° infantry Rgt.
- 18° infantry Rgt.
- MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti Comunista)
France, Corsica
- various reparts of these units: "Friuli", "Cremona", "2^ Celere", "Granatieri di Sardegna", "Val Pusteria"
- CC.NN. battalions: 42°, 50°, 55°
- CC.NN. legions: 88^, 90^
- 6° heavy artillery group
- 20 Gr./42° Rgt. Art.
- garrison of Betasom base (Bordeaux)
Romania
- garrison of Costanza/Eforie base
Germany
- Nebbiogeni (fog-layer) Btg. in Wilhelmshaven, Swinemunde, Usedom, Wollin, Gotehaven-Gdynia, Zeitz
- various commands
China
- Btg. San Marco in Tientsin
The only book in English language about the Italian armistice is A Nation Collapses : The Italian Surrender of September 1943
by Elena Aga Rossi (Italian edition: Una nazione allo sbando). NOTE: the surname of the author is often mispelled as Agarossi.
by Elena Aga Rossi (Italian edition: Una nazione allo sbando). NOTE: the surname of the author is often mispelled as Agarossi.
Well, the Ariete II didn't fight "until overwhelmed", because it was kept between its nemesis, the Centauro II division (known as M division untill 25 July 1943 and made of blackshirts), and Rome to prevent a pro-German attack made by the fascists of that unit. Only a few men took part to the battle, a battle that lasted only about 2 days. In fact already on 9 Sept. 1943 gen. Calvi di Bergolo (commander of Centauro II and son in law of the King), gen. Carboni and the old Marshal Caviglia had started negotiations with the Germans, and an agreement was signed on 16:00 of 10 Sept.daveh wrote:it fought against the Germans until overwhelmed and disbanded, the 132nd Ariete armoured Division (2nd formation)
The Germans followed the order of the OKW n.005117 of 9 Sept. 1943; those who surrendered were PoWs (but, as I've already explained, not all were interned; it was decided following the agreements made with Italian Armies and the ideas of the German generals, for example: Rommel pro-internment, Kesselring against it); those who had given weapons to the partizans or had joined them had a different treatment: the officers had to be shot, the NCOs and the soldiers had to be deported to the East. On 24 Sept. 1943, after the liberation of Mussolini and the creation of a new Republican Fascist Govern, the status of the PoWs changed into "interned militars". Thus, formally, Hitler didn't want to consider them as captured enemies, but as interned former allies that might have the right to restart fighting for Italy (this time the RSI), but simply this allowed their use in labour battalions. Those who refused to fight for Germany or the RSI, or to work for Germany were considered PoWs, but only after the agreement of Guben in Aug. 1944.Did they take Italians as prisoners of war? and if so were these only from units that resisted?
Re: Fate of Italian army units 9/43
May you post it here or in a new thread, please?daveh wrote:I have an OOB for the Italian army dated 8/9/43 for divison/corps/army.
The first "nucleus" of Officers that would procede to the building on the San Marco (RSI) Division (known at the time of its birth as 1a Divisione Granatieri), and its first Commanding General, (Gen. Aldo PRINCIVALLE, who was CO of the Brennero Div in Sept, 1943) came from the ranks of the Brennero Inf. Division.Lupo Solitario wrote:...
In sept 1943 the division chose to remain with the axis, in reference to the 11th Brennero Infantry division
The division had served the union and spent all september 1943, going up and down for Albania. Being without orders and without supply, gave weapons to germans and was lifted away (in internation camps, I suppose, cause I have no trace about a their employment after october 1943)
...
Best regards
Enlisting units which passed to the Germans DrG wrote:
About Nembo division DrG reports Arena's list of battallions which passed to the Germans:
Ciao, Folgore!
Actually I have no notice of desertions among these units. Friuli and Cremona divisions, along with 225th and 226th coastal divisions, one Celere rgt., a miscellaneous unit called Raggruppamento Ticchioni , and other minor forces were part of the Army Corp based in Corsica. ( For a total of about 80,000 men). According to my sources the only men conquered by the RSI cause in the island were about 200 legionaires of the 55^ Militia Legion based in Bonifacio, persuaded by the paras of the Nembo coming from Sardinia.- various reparts of these units: "Friuli", "Cremona",
About Nembo division DrG reports Arena's list of battallions which passed to the Germans:
I would say just the XII/184° entirely deserted (and with it the 1^/II/184° Artillery battery), the both were forming the Rizzatti tactical group. While for the other three btg.s cited it is not possible to speak of organic defection, but only of general disband, undiscipline, and attempts of revolt, while isolated groups escaped and joined the Rizzatti Group or the Germans. Inside the Nembo, the 9th of September, one of the first incidents of the cvil war began with the killing of Lt.Col.Bechi Luserna, (gold medal at El-Alamein), who had tried to stop a deserting column.- XII/184° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- part of XIII/184° Rgt. and XIV/184° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- III/185° Rgt. parachutists "Nembo"
- 1^/II/184° Rgt. Art. parachutists "Nembo" .
Ciao, Folgore!
The III/185°, commanded by cap. Edoardo Sala was in Calabria and, according to my sources, followed its commander who decided to go on fighting along with the German ally. Thus it was attached to the 29. Panzergrenadier Division and then took part to the defence of Salerno. Then, on 19 Sept. 1943 it was united to the 1. Fallschirmjäger Division.Folgore wrote:I would say just the XII/184° entirely deserted (and with it the 1^/II/184° Artillery battery), the both were forming the Rizzatti tactical group. While for the other three btg.s cited it is not possible to speak of organic defection, but only of general disband, undiscipline, and attempts of revolt, while isolated groups escaped and joined the Rizzatti Group or the Germans.
About the other 2 battalions, also Arena tells that they didn't join the Germans as full units, as I've written.
Inside the Nembo, the 9th of September, one of the first incidents of the cvil war began with the killing of Lt.Col.Bechi Luserna, (gold medal at El-Alamein), who had tried to stop a deserting column.
Ten. Col. Alberto Bechi Luserna was awarded of the gold medal after his death, not for El Alamein (see: http://www.esercito.difesa.it/root/stor ... _bechi.asp).
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Re: Fate of Italian army units 9/43
What about the men from the two ADRA Bn's? Did they side with the Germans or the Allies?