Some questions about the Italians in 1943

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panzerIV
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Some questions about the Italians in 1943

#1

Post by panzerIV » 27 Jan 2004, 09:39

when fascist Italy surrendered in 1943, what happended to the troops that were occupying the Italian zone in france? Where they captured by the Germans? Or did they stay on the axis side? Or did they just went back to Italy?

and I've seen some pics of Italians fighting alongside Germans at the Battle Of Kursk... which Italian division fought there and what happened to them after the failed offensive?


Magnus.

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Gyenes
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#2

Post by Gyenes » 28 Jan 2004, 01:10

A brief excert from the site (skalman.nu) in 1943.
It might be of some assistance in your search.
Also ask some people at comando supremo
http://www.comandosupremo.com/phpBB2/
It is a website devoted to Italy in WW2.

9 July The allies land in Sicily. (Operation Husky)
22 July The allies capture Palermo.
25 July Benito Mussolini is ousted by the Great Fascist Council and replaced by Pietro Badoglio.

1 Aug Japanese puppet-regime founded in Burma.
23 Aug Soviet troops recapture Kharkov.
3 Sep Allied troops land on the italian mainland.
3 Sep Italy signs armistice.
8 Sep Italian surrender announced.
9 Sep The allies capture Taranto, Italien.
10 Sep German troops capture Rome.
11 Sep German counter-offensive at Salerno.
12 Sep German troops led by Otto Skorzeny liberate Mussolini.
17 Sep German offensive halted at Salerno.
18 Sep The allies capture Sardinia.
23 Sep Mussolini proclamins Repubblica Sociale Italiana (RSI) in the (german controlled) northern Italy.

25 Sep Soviet troops recapture Smolensk.
1 Oct The allies capture Neapel.
4 Oct German troops capture Kos.
4 Oct The allies capture Corsica.
13 Oct Italy declares war on Germany
6 Nov Soviet troops recapture Kiev.
28 Nov Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin meet in Teheran.
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DrG
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Re: Some questions about the Italians in 1943

#3

Post by DrG » 28 Jan 2004, 01:40

panzerIV wrote:when fascist Italy surrendered in 1943
The armistice was signed by the govern of Marshal Badoglio, not by Fascist Italy. In fact, after the German occupation, Mussolini founded a new Fascist govern whose troops fought untill the end of the war.
what happended to the troops that were occupying the Italian zone in france? Where they captured by the Germans? Or did they stay on the axis side? Or did they just went back to Italy?
The IV Army was disbanded by order of its commander, Gen. Mario Vercellino, on 12 Sept. 1943, while it was returning to Italy.
I've no further info, but maybe somebody will post some new info in this thread: Fate of Italian Army units 9/43.
I've seen some pics of Italians fighting alongside Germans at the Battle Of Kursk...
AFAIK there weren't Italian units in Russia after the winter of 1942/43. :?

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panzerIV
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#4

Post by panzerIV » 28 Jan 2004, 10:30

i've seen a pic at kusrk with italian units!!! i can show that pic soon...

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#5

Post by FB » 28 Jan 2004, 11:44

As far as I know, the vast majority of Italian troops in France was captured by the Germans and brought to prisony camps. Of the ramaining forces, some sided with the Germans while other, like the 7th Alpini Regiment, Pusteria Alpini Division (its 11th Alpini Regiment was almast completely captured by the Germans in the French city of Gap), that was on the Maritime Alps, managed to march through the mountains and was able to reach the city of Cuneo in Piedmont. There, though, a lot of its men were captured by the Germans. Other reached the again the mountains and gave birth to the first partizan units.

Best regards

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#6

Post by Folgore » 28 Jan 2004, 11:56

Another portion of disbanded troops of the IV Army joined the french maquis.
The Army Corp in Corsica accepted the Armistice and fought the germans till their final evacuation from Bastia at the beginning of Oct. '43.

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DrG
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#7

Post by DrG » 28 Jan 2004, 19:01

Folgore wrote:The Army Corp in Corsica accepted the Armistice and fought the germans till their final evacuation from Bastia at the beginning of Oct. '43.
The fightings between Italians and Germans in Corsica started some days after the armistice of 8 September. That same day the Germans declared that they were going to leave Corsica, thus the Italian command declared its neutrality. In the night between 8 and 9 Sept. some men of the Kriegsmarine tried to take control of the port of Bastia, but they were easily repulsed by Italians. After this small incident the German command made formal apologies and Italians gave again their weapons to the Germans disarmed in Bastia.
But on 12 Sept. the OKW ordered an attack against Italian troops, starting the battle that lasted 4 Oct. 1943 and caused the death of 811 Germans, 245 Italians, about 100 maquis and 87 of the French Army.
(source of my info: Storia Militare n° 121 - Ottobre 2003)

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DrG
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#8

Post by DrG » 28 Jan 2004, 19:02

panzerIV wrote:i've seen a pic at kusrk with italian units!!! i can show that pic soon...
Yes, please, show it and tell us if you have info; I'm very interested, I didn't know of the involvement of Italian soldiers in that battle.

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panzerIV
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#9

Post by panzerIV » 28 Jan 2004, 19:57

i have the pic in a book called "Panzergrenadiers In Action" by signal publications... but my scanner is a little weird so i cant get the pic! but as soon as the scanner works i will show the pic!

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Lupo Solitario
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#10

Post by Lupo Solitario » 29 Jan 2004, 01:04

italian at kursk clashes against entire italian literature on it...It seems more probable a wrong didascaly. Anyway i'd be curious to see the pic, too

bye
Lupo

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Gyenes
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#11

Post by Gyenes » 29 Jan 2004, 01:29

Yes, as far as I recall there were no Italians at Kursk but perhaps a small detachment I am unaware of?

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panzerIV
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#12

Post by panzerIV » 29 Jan 2004, 12:29

yes, maybe some soldiers still loyal to fascism?

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#13

Post by Mikko H. » 29 Jan 2004, 12:39

yes, maybe some soldiers still loyal to fascism?
This can't be a factor as Mussolini was still in power during Kursk.

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Juha Hujanen
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#14

Post by Juha Hujanen » 29 Jan 2004, 17:41

I think PanzerIV means this pic.


Caption does say that they are Italian troops during Kursk.If they really are,its news to me too.

Here's another pic that seems to be taken from same group.The man behind MG42 is wearing italian helmet.Strange.

Cheers/Juha
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Juha Hujanen
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#15

Post by Juha Hujanen » 29 Jan 2004, 17:50

:oops: Here's the pic PanzerIV meant.
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