Something must have pissed off Reverend Smith, because he’s been unusually productive this evening.
++Medorjurgen wrote:
Quote:
[Michael Mills] "Further, it conflicts with the fact that persons killed by CO poisoning show a typical cherry-red discolouring; Reder obviously did not notice this."
Which may be related to the fact that the victims did not die of carbon monoxide poisoning but, as the testimonies of Dr. Pfannenstiel and Schluch suggest, by suffocation.++
<<Nonsense.>>
When Smith calls my arguments “nonsense”, I know I can’t be all that wrong.
<<A gasoline engine puts out too much CO in the exhaust to cause suffocation by CO2.>>
I know Smith would badly want it to be a diesel engine so that he can make his good old diesel fuss about it, but could he give us some more convincing reasons as to why it couldn’t have been gasoline? What causes suffocation is not CO2, it is the lack of oxygen in the exhaust that leads to an oxygen-poor atmosphere as soon as the exhaust has replaced the existing air with itself. Unless the exhaust of a gasoline engine contains enough oxygen to sustain human life (i.e. 8 % at the very least), whether CO poisoning or suffocation will occur first depends on how long it takes for the exhaust to fill the chambers, which in turn depends on the size of the engine and the volume of the chambers. Suffocation occurred with what may well have been a gasoline engine in the gas vans when the drivers opened full throttle, as pointed out in Becker’s letter to Rauff of 16 May 1942:
Die Vergasung wird durchweg nicht richtig vorgenommen. Um die Aktion möglichst schnell zu beenden, geben die Fahrer durchweg Vollgas. Durch diese Maßnahme erleiden die zu Exekutierenden den Erstickungstod und nicht wie vorgesehen, den Einschläferungstod.
Source of quote:
http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ ... auff.shtml
My translation:
The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to conclude the action as soon as possible, the drivers generally open full throttle. Due to this measure those to be executed die of suffocation instead of, as intended, dozing away.
++Quote:
Gerstein is not exactly the most credible of witnesses, and unlike Reder he never seems to have seen the engine that was used for gassing himself.++
<<Gerstein was credible enough for the Holocaust Industry prior to Roque's Ph.D. thesis debunking Gerstein. BeforePrior to that time the Holocaustorians didn't question his whoppers; they just selectively quoted from him keeping what fit into their ideological bubble.>>
No, Mr. Smith, scholarly historiography before and after Roque, who didn’t write anything that wasn’t known before, took Gerstein with a grain of salt and used from his depositions only what seemed plausible
and was confirmed by more reliable witness such as Dr. Pfannenstiel. The “Revisionist” approach is far more simple: the True Believers take what fits into their ideological bubble and/or serves their arguments, whether it is plausible and corroborated by other evidence of not.
<<I highly doubt if Medojurgen has ever read Gerstein.>>
Only the widely known report on his visit to Belzec. Why the question? Have I missed something?
<<Please supply evidence that Degreed-Engineer Gerstein did not actually see the diesel engine he described.>>
Why, the True Believer is breaking his own rules by asking me to prove a negative. The other way round, pal: please supply evidence that Gerstein
did see the engine. It doesn’t become apparent from his account. See below.
<<He said that it broke down and that an embarrassed Captain Wirth whipped the Ukrainian mechanic fixing the motor on the face.>>
Does that mean Gerstein saw the engine itself? Here’s what he wrote:
Heckenholt was the driver of the Diesel, whose exhaust was to kill these poor unfortunates. SS Unterscharfu"hrer Heckenholt tried to start the motor. It wouldn't start! Captain Wirth came up. You could see he was afriad because I was there to see the disaster. Yes, I saw everyting and waited. My stopwatch clocked it all: 50 minutes, 70 minutes, and the Diesel still would not start! The men were waiting in the gas chambers. You could hear them weeping 'as though in a synagogue,' said Professor Pfannenstiel, his eyes glued to the window in the wooden door. Captain Wirth, furious, struck with his whip the Ukrainians who helped Heckenholt. The Diesel started up after 2 hours and 49 minutes, by my stopwatch. Twenty-five minutes passed. You could see through the window that many were already dead, for an electric light illuminated the interior of the room. All were dead after thirty-two minutes!
Source of quote:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/ ... poland.002
From Prof. Browning’s expert opinion submitted at the Irving-Lipstadt trial:
5.4.5.3 Once again, human memory is imperfect. The testimonies of both survivors and other witnesses to the events in Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka are no more immune to forgetfulness, error, exaggeration, distortion, and repression than eyewitness accounts of other events in the past. They differ, for instance, on how long each gassing operation took, on the dimensions and capacity of the gas chambers, on the number of undressing barracks, and on the roles of particular individuals. Gerstein, citing Globocnik, claimed the camps used diesel motors, but witnesses who actually serviced the engines in Belzec and Sobibor (Reder and Fuchs) spoke of gasoline engines. Once again, however, without exception all concur on the vital issue at dispute, namely that Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were death camps whose primary purpose was to kill in gas chambers through the carbon monoxide from engine exhaust, and that the hundreds of thousands of corpses of Jews killed there were first buried and then later cremated.
Source of quote:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/Browning3.htm
<<I guess the mechanic was fixing the engine in some other dimension at the time. Perhaps the Twilight Zone.
Come to think of it that makes sense!
Gerstein was on another planet.>>
Good old True Believer baloney.
<<At Belzec, however, there WAS a diesel engine but it supplied camp power not execution gas. That explains that.>>
That may very well explain why Gerstein was mistaken in regard to the type of engine used, for sure.
++While gasoline fumes quickly lead to carbon monoxide poisoning, suffocation is likely to come about even faster when a closed room is filled with the oxygen-poor exhaust of a huge engine.++
<<Yes, but if the engine is gasoline then the CO concentration will be several percent, and that is not a factor that can be dismissed, regardless of O2 and CO2 concentrations.>>
Certainly. But how long will it take for the people to die of carbon monoxide poisoning? Will it get to them before or after the atmosphere consists mostly of oxygen-poor fumes, thus causing suffocation? Depends on the size of the engine and the volume to be filled with exhaust, as explained above.
++The only conclusion that is warranted by Reder's account, if set against that of other witnesses, is that what Reder and the other witnesses saw after the gassings was the result not of carbon monoxide poisoning, but of death by suffocation.++
<<You mean, the "only conclusion" that fits what you want to be true.>>
No, the only conclusion that comes from simply following the evidence where it leads without doing “Revisionist” mental gymnastics. Readers may have a look at my post of Mar 18, 2002 4:54 pm on the thread
Belzec
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 6f4d3d89c6
and judge for themselves.
<<Occam's razor would suggest that the simplest and most-likely explanation is probably the true one and that is that the gaschamber fantasy is simply a lie.>>
Well, that is everything other than the “simplest and most-likely explanation” . Unless of course the Reverend can provide some convincing explanation as to
what happened to the 434,508 people taken to Belzec according to the Höfle memorandum, why surviving witnesses and former members of the SS staff described the killing in great and coincident detail before criminal justice authorities and why there were 33 mass graves at Belzec with room for the remains of at least a quarter of a million people, found during the 1997/98 archaeological investigations. Let’s hear, True Believer.
<<In addition, if you are saying that with some unusual Nazi gasoline engine the CO content will be so low that this would not matter, and that the victims actually died from CO2 suffocation, then you NOW have to put a LOAD on your GASOLINE engine!>>
Really? Facts and figures, please, not hollow platitudes. The above-quoted description by Becker suggests that it took nothing but a simple opening of the throttle to produce oxygen-poor fumes that would quickly fill the room in question and induce death by suffocation. So does the deposition of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs at the Sobibor-Bolender trial, Dusseldorf:
.....We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube. I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The chemist, who I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring instruments to test the concentration of the gas. Following this, as gassing experiment was carried out. If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber, and were driven into the gas chamber by the above mentioned SS members and the Ukrainian auxiliaries. when the women were shut up in the gas chamber I and Bolender set the motor in motion. The motor functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched from "Neutral" (Freiauspuff) to "Cell" (Zelle), so that the gas was conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor on a definite speed so that it was unnecessary henceforth to press on the gas. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead.
Source of quote:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/akt ... /fuchs.t01
