Destruction of Lidice

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giles120
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Destruction of Lidice

#1

Post by giles120 » 10 Feb 2004, 15:29

On 27th May 1942, SS Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, head of the RSHA, and Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia was severely wounded in a grenade attack on his car near Prague by two Czech parachutists sent from London by the Czech government-in-exile.

On 4th June, Heydrich died of his wounds(material from the car seat had entered the blood stream causing poisoning). Reprisals were swift and brutal.

1. In the next few days, 3,188 Czech citizens were arrested of whom 1,357 were shot. Another 657 died while being interrogated by Security Police.

2. In Lezaky, a village east of Prague, where the assassins' radio transmitter was discovered, every adult was killed. The children were forcibly removed to Germany for "reeducation," a process that only two of them survived.

3. At dawn on 9th June, the village of Lidice was surronded on order of the Gestapo by soldiers who arrived from the hamlet of Slany in ten trucks. All the men and boys over 16 years old, 172 in all, were rounded up and locked in a barn. They were then shot the next day in groups of ten, which lasted from dawn until 4 in the afternoon. 19 men who were working in the mines during the shooting were also rounded up and sent to Prague where they were killed.

Seven of the women were taken to Prague where they were shot. The rest, numbering 195, were sent to Ravensbruck Concentration Camp in Germany. At Ravensbruck, 35 of the older women were then sent on to Auschwitz to be used for medical experiments.

Of the children, 17 were picked out as suitable for Germanisation and allocated to German households. The rest, 81 in number, were sent to Chelmno Death Camp and gassed.

The village was burned, the remains dynamited, and then bulldozed so that no structure was left standing. The name of Lidice was expunged from all official records.

I thought the soldiers involved in the massacre and subsequent destruction of Lidice were SS Security Police. The film 'Operation Daybreak'(not sure of the historical accuracy), suggests a heavy tank detachment of the SS Prinz Eugen Division commanded by Obersturmbannführer Max Roschmann were responsible. The below link casts doubt on any SS involvement, instead saying the perpetrators were Czech Police acting under German orders(I have not read any other evidence which supports this).

http://www.thisisfolkestone.co.uk/ms/in ... poland.htm

This conflicts with pictures I have seen, showing men in German uniforms. Can anyone provide information on units involved, and whether it was the Germans or the Czechs who were responsible for the executions in Lidice.

Thanks.
Last edited by giles120 on 10 Feb 2004, 15:58, edited 2 times in total.

Dan
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#2

Post by Dan » 10 Feb 2004, 15:32

I thought the Czech police rounded up the people?


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Benoit Douville
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#3

Post by Benoit Douville » 21 Feb 2004, 21:28

About the tragedy of Lidice. 30 Czech Gendarmes of the Prague Police, acting on German orders, executed 174 Men. In this context it is alleged time and again that Lidice was destroyed by the Waffen-SS and it is completely false.

Regards

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#4

Post by michael mills » 21 Feb 2004, 23:57

The rest, 81 in number, were sent to Chelmno Death Camp and gassed.
I would be interested to know if there is any documentary evidence for the above claim, which I have seen before.

To my knowledge, the children from Lidice who were not adopted by German families can be traced to the Generalgouvernement, where their fate is unknown.

The destruction of Lidice was intended as public retribution, ie it was intended that other Czechs see it and realise that assassinating German officials was bad for their (the Czechs') health. Sending children to secret death camps would not accomplish that deterrent aim.

The fact that some of the children were adopted by German families shows that it was not the German intention to include the children in the retributive punishment of their parents. Those children who were not suitable for adoption and no longer had parents to look after them were perhaps now a headache for the German authorities, and so were dumped in the Generalgouvernement.

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#5

Post by alf » 22 Feb 2004, 01:21

On Lidice and the children sent to Chelmo, there is a list of names available of them at http://www.zchor.org/lidice1.htm taken from a book
"Oboz Smierci w Chelmno Nad Nerem", Janusz Golczynski, published by the Konin Museum, 1991

There is also a direct link to the United States Holocaust Museum who is always happy to answer any questions for further serious research.
http://www.ushmm.org/

Alternatively as much of this information is from the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Israel Gutman, Sifriat Hapoalim, 1990, vol. 3, page 635 from Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/ they are always happy to answer queries on research

Onto the Germans retribution, again from the above website, it puts it succinetly
On June 4, Heydrich died of his wounds. The Nazis swore revenge: they ordered the execution of ten thousand Czechs and threatened the expulsion of millions. The Karl Borromaeus Church, where the assassins and more than one hundred members of the Czech resistance were hiding, was besieged. Everyone in the church was killed by the SS.

In Lezaky, a village east of Prague, where the assassins' radio transmitter was discovered, every adult was killed. The children were forcibly removed to Germany for "reeducation," a process that only two of them survived.

At dawn on June 10, all the residents of Lidice, a village ten miles outside Prague, were taken from their homes. They were shot in batches of ten at a time behind a barn. By late afternoon, 192 men and boys and 71 women had been murdered. The other women were sent to concentration camps. The children were dispersed, some to concentration camps, although a few who were considered sufficiently Aryan were sent to Germany. The SS then razed the town and tried to eradicate its memory. The name of Lidice was expunged from all official records
There is no justification whatsoever for the eradication of Lidice and the nmassacre of its people, the SS had already acted swiftly and brutally in killing any who they thought possibly connected with the attack (and any unfortunates in the vicinity).

(i) The Karl Borromaeus Church, where the assassins and more than one hundred members of the Czech resistance were hiding, was besieged. Everyone in the church was killed by the SS

(ii) In Lezaky, a village east of Prague, where the assassins' radio transmitter was discovered, every adult was killed. The children were forcibly removed to Germany for "reeducation," a process that only two of them survived.

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#6

Post by michael mills » 22 Feb 2004, 23:54

Alf wrote:
On Lidice and the children sent to Chelmo, there is a list of names available of them at http://www.zchor.org/lidice1.htm taken from a book
"Oboz Smierci w Chelmno Nad Nerem", Janusz Golczynski, published by the Konin Museum, 1991
All that is provided at the website linked by Alf is a list of names, which could easily be derived from the records of the local school.

No evidence is provided to show that the persons listed were actually "killed in the gas vans at Chelmno". The website does not even say how it was deduced that those persons were sent to Chelmno, ie whether the names of the children appeared on the manifest of a transport recorded as being sent to Chelmno.

Alf also quotes a passage including the following sentence:
The children were dispersed, some to concentration camps, although a few who were considered sufficiently Aryan were sent to Germany.
That seems to me a far more reasonable statement of what happened to the children of Lidice, based on the available evidence. If some of the children were sent to concentration camps, then it is a reasonable assumption that few of them survived, given the conditions in the camps.

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#7

Post by giles120 » 23 Feb 2004, 00:13

Thanks to all for your posts.

Alf, thanks for the links. I wonder why Chelmno was chosen. I think a decision was made to re-educate certain children. Those who were not deemed suitable for this were sent to Chelmno and murdered. Were they re-educated to act and think like Nazi's?

Although the majority of victims of Chelmno were Jews, approx 5000 gypsies, 1000 Poles and 1000 Russian Prisoners of War were also murdered there.

I wonder whether those responsible for the planning of the Heydrich assasination ever contemplated such widespread and horrific reprisals.

Mike, I would tend to share your views regarding Chelmno and the children of Lidice. However, when I was writing the original post, I found numerous websites that mentioned a large number of Lidice children were sent to Chelmno and murdered. The below link(last para) seems to be quite a common view, it uses the word 'probable'(not definate).

http://www.zchor.org/CHELMSUM.HTM

The attached picture shows soldiers in Lidice after its destruction. They look like German uniforms. It does not give a date, so could be some days after the act.

A similar act of reprisal, this time against Dutch civilans took place in March 1945. On the night of March 6, a BMW car, carrying Obergruppenführer Hans Albin Rauter(head of SIPO and SD in occupied Holland), was ambushed, his driver and orderly being killed. Rauter was seriously wounded . Some hours later, the damaged car was found by German troops and Rauter was taken to the St. Joseph-Stichting hospital on the outskirts of Apeldoorn where he recovered after a series of blood transfusions. Soon after the ambush, the SD arrived and what followed was one of the most notorious war crimes ever committed in Holland. In charge of the investigation was SS Brigadefuhrer Dr.Eberhardt Schongarth, who immediately ordered reprisals. One hundred and sixteen men were rounded up and transported to the scene of the ambush where they were all shot dead, their bodies being buried in a mass grave in Heidehof Cemetery in the village of Ugchelen . In Gestapo prisons all over Holland, prisoners were taken out and shot in reprisal for the ambush. In all, a total of 263 people had been shot in reprisal. The irony was, that the Dutch underground fighters had intended to ambush and steal a German lorry, and had no idea that the car they shot up contained a German General. Rauter himself survived the war. He was arrested by British Military Police in a hospital at Eutin and turned over to the Dutch. Before a Special Court of Justice in the Hague, he was sentenced to death and on March 25, 1949, he was executed by firing squad in the dunes near Scheveningen Prison. Schongarth was tried by a British Military Court, found guilty on another war crime charge and sentenced to death. He was hanged in 1946.

Thanks.
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lidice1.jpg
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#8

Post by Luca » 29 Feb 2004, 21:42

No childrens was send to KL.
No Czech forces was involved in the Lidice and Lezaky facts.
At the moment, only of two of these childrens send in Germany for adoption, is possible know the actual fate.
Luca

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#9

Post by Kurt_Steiner » 04 Apr 2007, 09:52

Had any Wehmacht or Heer units took part in this massacre?

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#10

Post by mty » 28 May 2007, 12:24

Judging of the photos posted, at least some of the personnel involved were from Orpo; thus either Schupos or Gendarmerie. Perhaps Police battalions. I wouldn't be surprised if they also employed units of Czech police and fire bridgades.

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#11

Post by Plavá bestie » 01 Jun 2007, 20:40


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tigre
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Re: Destruction of Lidice

#12

Post by tigre » 01 Mar 2009, 14:12

Hello to all :D; here goes some pictures dealing with that human tragedy...................

Source: La Segunda Guerra Mundial. Tomo 3. SARPE.

Cheers. RAúl M 8-).
Attachments
copyofescanear0002lidicgb9.jpg
The place where Obergruppenführer-SS Reinhard Heydrich was killed; the empty car was still there.........
copyofescanear0002lidicgb9.jpg (59.64 KiB) Viewed 5097 times
copyofescanear0001lidickg8.jpg
View of Lídice; on the foreground the old barn, ten the church.........
copyofescanear0001lidickg8.jpg (53.5 KiB) Viewed 5097 times
copyofescanear0005.jpg
The victims of Lídice..............
copyofescanear0005.jpg (66.67 KiB) Viewed 5095 times

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tigre
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Re: Destruction of Lidice

#13

Post by tigre » 01 Mar 2009, 14:16

Hello to all :D; something more...................

Source: La Segunda Guerra Mundial. Tomo 3. SARPE.

Cheers. RAúl M 8-).
Attachments
copyofescanear0006.jpg
The SS soldiers on the foreground behind Lídice was burning........
copyofescanear0006.jpg (63.27 KiB) Viewed 5091 times
copyofescanear0007.jpg
The SS-Hauptsturmführer Wiesmann's report...........
copyofescanear0007.jpg (62.02 KiB) Viewed 5089 times

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Sergey Romanov
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Re:

#14

Post by Sergey Romanov » 25 Sep 2016, 21:44

michael mills wrote:
The rest, 81 in number, were sent to Chelmno Death Camp and gassed.
I would be interested to know if there is any documentary evidence for the above claim, which I have seen before.

To my knowledge, the children from Lidice who were not adopted by German families can be traced to the Generalgouvernement, where their fate is unknown.

The destruction of Lidice was intended as public retribution, ie it was intended that other Czechs see it and realise that assassinating German officials was bad for their (the Czechs') health. Sending children to secret death camps would not accomplish that deterrent aim.

The fact that some of the children were adopted by German families shows that it was not the German intention to include the children in the retributive punishment of their parents. Those children who were not suitable for adoption and no longer had parents to look after them were perhaps now a headache for the German authorities, and so were dumped in the Generalgouvernement.
I must sort of agree with Mills on this one.

It doesn't seem like there is sufficient evidence that all or any Lidice kids were gassed in Chelmno (or elsewhere), monuments notwithstanding. The more scholarly books that contain the claim qualify it with the word "probably", which indicates uncertainty. It seems to be based on a testimony of a gardener who claimed to have seen Czech-speaking kids arriving in two lorries, but such a testimony is not a very strong piece of evidence (there are several testimonies about corpses of Lidice children arriving in Auschwitz, for one). There are a couple of even less direct indicia (a letter by Krumey, the number of the lorry that took the children away mentioned in a Chelmno document), with pro and contra arguments against them, which, even "amped to the max", might show an initial homicidal intent but do not show that the killing of all the children actually took place.

These indicia are trumped by the fact that there is good evidence that many of the children were alive as late as 1944:

Photostat:

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/pf ... tartpage=1

Translation:

NMT, vol. IV, pp.1030ff.
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NO-435
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 399
LETTER FROM THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR THE PROTECTORATE OF
BOHEMIA AND MORAVIA TO RUDOLF BRANDT, 13 JUNE 1944,
CONCERNING CHILDREN OF EXECUTED CZECHS
The German Minister of State for Bohemia and Moravia

Personal Adviser

Prague, 13 June 1944

[handwritten note]

In order as regards F. [?]. Lebensborn
would necessarily have to be informed
[initial illegible]
21 June
Nr. St.M IV C - 35 j/43 g.
(refer to in reply)
Secret
To SS Colonel Dr. Brandt,

Personal Staff Reich Leader SS, Field Command Post

Dear comrade Brandt,
Concerning the matter "children of executed Czechs" I wish
to reply to your letter directed to SS Lieutenant General Frank,
dated 6 February of this year, diary index No. 26/2/44 g Bra/H,
that the conversation between SS Lieutenant General Frank and
SS Colonel Sollmann took place on 2 July of last year in Prague.
Colonel Sollmann stated during this conversation that racially
valuable children up to six years would be considered eligible by
the "Lebensborn". In individual cases even children up to 12
years could be adopted, but experience has shown, however, that
difficulties would arise in such cases, when adopting them by a
German family.
The commander of the Security Police and the SD has instructed
the Superior State Police Offices [Staatspolizeileitstellen]
Bruenn [Bmo] and Prague to bring about a registration of
Czech children, whose parents were executed under martial law
or had died in a concentration camp. It was intended, to have
children up to six years and suitable for Germanization brought
into German families through the "Lebensborn". The older children,
who were no longer suitable to be brought into a German
family, were to be housed collectively somewhere outside the
Protectorate, in order to attempt a collective reeducation. As regards
the further treatment of children not suitable for Germanization,
a decision of the Reich Leader SS should have been
sought for. The registration of the children has been effected in
the meantime.
It was, however, not possible to carry out the other measures
planned, because considerable agitation would have resulted therefrom
among the Czech population. For the time being the children
were housed with relatives and friends where they became quite
familiar. The mere examination of the children would have caused
some sensation and would have brought about a state of affairs,
unbearable with regard to the present -situation in the Protectorate
and especially to the maintenance of labor peace necessary for the
unlimited production of war material. For that reason no further
steps were taken in connection with the registry of children.
The decision as to their further treatment has to be postponed.
Sixty-five children of Czechs, who were executed under martial
law, were housed collectively, 46 of them in the internment camp
at Swatoborschitz and 19 in a children's home at Prague-Reuth.
These are mostly children whose parents were living in the former
villages of Liditz [Lidice] and Lezaky, the inhabitants of
which were shot or put in a concentration camp in connection
with the measures taken after the attempt on SS Lieutenant
General Heydrich.
Seven of these children, selected at an examination
by the branch-section Bohemia and Mdravia of the Race
and Settlement Main Office SS [Aussenstelle Boehmen und
Maehren des Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamtes SS] as being suit­
able for Germanization, were housed in a children's home in the
Warthegau.
The commander of the Security Police and the SD has tried
as early'as the beginning of the past year, to obtain a decision
through RSHA [Reich Security Main Office] on the further treatment
of the children housed in Swatoborschitz and Prague-Reuth
who were not found suitable for Germanization. In connection
with this, a transfer to the East had been proposed. Today a
transfer of these children from Bohemia and Moravia is no
longer possible, because in the meantime some of the relatives
found out the whereabouts of the children and illegally established
a hardly to be controlled communication. This development is also
connected with the fact that Czech personnel were employed;
made necessary by the lack of Germans. Some time ago a renewed
examination of the children was carried out by the branch
section Bohemia and Moravia of the Race and Settlement Main
Office. On this occasion three more children, who could not be
valued before on account of their youth, were classified as an
acceptable addition to our population and 19 children as barely
acceptable. It is true, that the setting up of the evaluation scheme
was done on a generous scale.
It is intended to have the racially acceptabitJ elements of the
collectively housed children transferred through the Lebensborn
to German families or to a children's home whereas the children
over 16 years are to be sent to a concentration camp.
No further measures are to be taken at the present, according
to Lieutenant General Frank's opinion. It is, however, to be observed
in the future, that children are to be included in cases
where judgment is passed on both parents, at the least they are
to be removed immediately from the place.
Heil Hitler!
Yours
[Signature illegible]
SS Colonel
[Stamp]
Personal Staff
Received on 20 June 1944
Diary No. 26/2/44 g
RF
The judges in the Eichmann trial wrote:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/e/ ... dgment-063
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/e/ ... dgment-064
212. Thetwelfth count of the indictment charges the Accused
with a crime against humanity, regarding approximately 100
children, residents of the village of Lidice in
Czechoslovakia. According to the indictment, the Accused
participated in their deportation, their transport to
Poland, and their murder there.

The Accused denied all activity in, or knowledge of, this
act, and Counsel for the Defence also contends that the
murder of the children was not proved. In addition to the
documentary material, we also have before us in this matter
Krumey's evidence, Mrs. Freiberg's statement (N/19), and the
evidence submitted in the case of Greifelt and others (the
case against the Head Office for Race and Resettlement,
Green Series, vol. 4, p. 599; and vol. 5), especially in the
evidence of Maria Hanfova (vol. 4, p. 1033). In connection
with this evidence, we mention our Decision No. 48 given on
24 May 1961 (Session 50, p. 904).

From all this material, the following picture emerges: After
the Nazis had wrought their deeds at Lidice, two transports
of children from the village were sent to Lodz.
[...]

The remaining 81 children were put into a camp at Lodz, from
which they were removed on 2 July 1942. The Attorney
General contends that these 81 children were removed to the
East. And, indeed, it says on the printed copy of Form
T/1095: "To the Generalgouvernement, 81 Czechs." But the
photocopy of the original document, which was put before the
Accused as exhibit T/37(246), leaves a doubt, for there
three items are crowded into the space intended for the
description of those who are "leaving," and the remark "81
Czechs" does not appear on the line reading "To the
Generalgouvernement" but just above this line. On the
strength of this document, it is impossible to establish
with certainty where the children were sent. But on the
strength of the document dated 2 July 1942, also attached to
the evidence by Krumey, it can be established that the
children were handed over to the Lodz Stapo. This document
reads as follows:

"Confirmation: In accordance with a cable from the Head
Office for Reich Security, 81 Czech children, who were
temporarily lodged in the camp at 41 Gneisenau Street, were
handed over today, 2 July 1942, to the Litzmannstadt Stapo."

The document is signed by two SS men, the one who handed
over the children, and the other as the one receiving them.

We did not learn any more about the fate of these 81
children.
Immediately after, there is a further transport
of 18 children, six of whom are destined for Germanization
and are immediately transferred to a certain children's
home. The remaining children were handed over on 25 July
1942 to the Lodz Stapo (exhibit T/1099), and according to
the confirmation of the delivery and the receipt, in the
meantime these twelve children were also in the above camp.

[...]

213. There is no doubt that these 93 children were deported
and that the Accused took part in their deportation.

[...]

On the other hand, it has not been proved that the Accused's
Section had any part in the murder of these 93 children, and
it has also not been proved beyond reasonable doubt,
according to the evidence before us, that they were
murdered.
The Attorney General proposes that the Court
conclude this from:

(a) The letter (or cable) dated 12 June 1942, number 346/42,
signed by Fischer, attached to the evidence by Krumey, in
which it is stated:

"The children who are not suitable for Germanization
are being transferred there, and they are to be sent on
in the proper way through the Polish camps situated
there... The children bring with them nothing but what
they have on their persons. There is no need to take
special care of them."

(b) The letter T/1094, where Krumey writes that he applied
in this matter to Section IVB4, assuming "that these were
intended for special treatment."

The representatives of the Attorney General and of the
Accused were present at the interrogation of the witness
Krumey, but it is not clear to us who showed Krumey the
above letter, dated 12 June 1942. Krumey's reaction to the
letter was that he did not remember the various letters sent
to him on the subject (p. 8), but did not doubt its
authenticity. But then the contents of the letter are not
unequivocal, especially since it was not sent by the
Accused's Section, but by the Commander of the Security
Police in Prague, and the question whether, as regards non-
Jews, the Commanders of the Security Police were subordinate
to the Accused's Section is not clear to us.

As to the term "special treatment" - in the year 1942 this
most certainly had only one meaning when used in regard to
Jews: If in the year 1942 Jews were taken for special
treatment, they were killed. The same unequivocal meaning
has not been proved to us in regard to others. Counsel for
the Defence submitted to us forms N/108 in connection with
"special treatment" for Poles. There is ground for the
assumption that in one of the forms the reference is to
killing, in connection with a Pole who is not "suitable for
Germanization." But a doubt still persists, especially as,
according to the letter of 12 June 1942 cited by us above,
the children are to be sent to camps for Poles. We know
that Poles from Zamosc were sent to extermination, but it
has not been proved that Poles sent from Lodz were similarly
treated. Finally: The term "special treatment" was used by
Krumey, and he assumed that this is what was in store for
the children. The term does not appear in cable T/1009 sent
by the Accused's Section.

In conclusion, as regards the Accused, it has been proved
only that he participated in the expulsion of the 93
children of Lidice from their homeland, and he thus took
part in the commission of a crime against humanity.
Further reading:

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/ein-deut ... r-16518090
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/zwei-stu ... e-16456774
https://www.welt.de/print-welt/article6 ... t-ist.html

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