zyklon-b

[ozs86]

do you guys beleive that zyklon-b was used in the halocaust i dont
because it is so poisonous that you must vantilate the place used for 2 days and as it is used in a place full of people(the camp i mean) it may have killed everyone

[Phil V]

Check this out

http://www.stormfront.org/revision/ff5zyklonb.html

[Tarpon27]

do you guys beleive that zyklon-b was used in the halocaust i dont
because it is so poisonous that you must vantilate the place used for 2 days and as it is used in a place full of people(the camp i mean) it may have killed everyone

So, I guess now the delousing chambers did not exist, since they use 50 times the concentration of hydrogen cyanide to kill lice and mites carrying typhus?

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/

You may want to read this to further your understanding.

The URL listed above by Max...

http://www.stormfront.org/revision/ff5zyklonb.html

...is accurate for killing lice and mites but killing warm blooded humans requires far less Zyklon B. So, the URL does not help in deciding on the use of Zyklon B in the camps because they do not tell you that while ~7,000 to 15,000 ppm (parts per million in a volume) of hydrogen cyanide is required to kill bugs, and that it takes 6 to 36 hours to do so, a 300 ppm level is fatal to humans in minutes.

EXPOSURE LIMITS

* OSHA PEL

The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for hydrogen cyanide is 10 ppm (11 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m(3))) as an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA) concentration. The OSHA PEL also bears a "Skin" notation, which indicates that the cutaneous route of exposure (including mucous membranes and eyes) contributes to overall exposure [29 CFR 1910.1000, Table Z-1].
* NIOSH REL

The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has established a recommended exposure limit (REL) for hydrogen cyanide of 4.7 ppm (5 mg/m(3)) as a STEL. NIOSH also assigns a "Skin" notation to hydrogen cyanide [NIOSH 1992].
* ACGIH TLV

The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has assigned hydrogen cyanide a ceiling limit value of 4.7 ppm (5 mg/m(3)), which should not be exceeded during any part of the working exposure. The ACGIH also assigns a "Skin" notation to hydrogen cyanide [ACGIH 1994, p. 23].
* Rationale for Limits

The NIOSH limit is based on the risk of thyroid, blood, and respiratory effects [NIOSH 1992].
The ACGIH limit is based on the risk of acute poisoning [ACGIH 1991, p. 776].
HEALTH HAZARD INFORMATION

* Routes of Exposure

Exposure to hydrogen cyanide can occur through inhalation, ingestion, eye or skin contact, and absorption through the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes [Sittig 1991; Rom 1992].
* Summary of toxicology

1. Effects on Animals: Cyanide is a potent and rapidly acting chemical asphyxiant; it prevents tissue utilization of oxygen by inhibiting the tissue enzyme cytochrome oxidase. The organs especially sensitive to cyanide damage are those whose function depends on an adequate supply of oxygen; i.e., the brain and heart [Gosselin 1984]. The 1-minute inhalation LC(50) in dogs is 616 mg/m(3); in rats and mice, the 5-minute inhalation LC(50) values are 484 ppm and 323 ppm, respectively [Sax and Lewis 1989]. The oral LD(50) in the mouse is 3.7 mg/kg [Sax and Lewis 1989]. Animals lethally or sublethally poisoned by cyanides have exhibited optic nerve and retinal damage. Repeated administration of cyanide caused central nervous system lesions involving degeneration of the myelin sheath in rats and monkeys [Grant 1986]. Animals acutely poisoned demonstrate cherry-red blood, agonal hemorrhages on the heart, and congestion and petechial hemorrhage of the lungs and gastrointestinal tract [NLM 1995]. Instilled into the conjunctival sac of the eyes of rabbits, hydrogen cyanide caused death within 3 to 12 minutes after instillation [NLM 1995].

2. Effects on Humans: Hydrogen cyanide can cause rapid death due to metabolic asphyxiation. Death can occur within seconds or minutes of the inhalation of high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide gas. A recent study reports an estimated LC(50) in humans of 3,404 ppm for a 1-minute exposure; other sources report that 270 ppm is fatal after 6 to 8 minutes, 181 ppm after 10 minutes and 135 ppm after 30 minutes [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Cyanide directly stimulates the chemoreceptors of the carotid and aortic bodies, causing hyperpnea. Cardiac irregularities are often noted [Amdur 1991]. Liquid hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen cyanide in aqueous solution [hydrocyanic acid], and the concentrated vapor are all absorbed rapidly through the intact skin and may cause systemic poisoning with little or no irritant effect on the skin itself. The liquid in contact with the eye may cause only local irritation; however, the attendant absorption may be hazardous [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Industrial exposure to hydrogen cyanide solutions has caused dermatitis, itching, scarlet rash, papules, and nose irritation and bleeding. Perforation of the nasal septum has also occurred [NLM 1995]. Workers exposed to hydrogen cyanide at concentrations ranging from 4 to 12 ppm for 7 years showed an increase in symptoms such as headaches, weakness, changes in taste and smell, irritation of the throat, vomiting, effort dyspnea, lacrimation, abdominal colic, precordial pain, and nervous instability [ACGIH 1991]. Workers exposed to low concentrations (not further specified) of hydrogen cyanide have developed enlarged thyroid glands [NLM 1995].

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/healthguid ... ition.html

Frankly, with the ventilation systems in some of the Kremas, and the low concentration needed to kill humans, you could re-enter the chambers within minutes.

Regards,

Mark

[ozs86]

using so much of this deadly thing that can't be ventilated as it is dangerous for others too

[Sailor]

Assuming then that there were four Zyklon-B inlet chutes for the alleged gas chamber in morgue 1 in Krema II in Auschwitz/Birkenau, how many cans of Zyklon-B did it then actually take to be dumped into each inlet chute, and for how many people was that good for?

Are there any records about this from that time, any instructions I could check out?

I doubt very much that a simple SS man knew then how much less Zyklon-B it would take to kill human beings as compared to lice. Or how to calculate the amount of Zyklon required for the size of room and number of prisoners for homicidal purposes.

Since it takes about 3 - 4 hours for Zyklon-B to completely discharge its HCN content, and the members of the "Sonderkommando' already entered the alleged gas chamber after 30 minutes or so, what happened to the rest of the still HCN discharging Zyklon-B? Did they put it back into the cans?

[Tarpon27]

Sailor wrote:

Assuming then that there were four Zyklon-B inlet chutes for the alleged gas chamber in morgue 1 in Krema II in Auschwitz/Birkenau, how many cans of Zyklon-B did it then actually take to be dumped into each inlet chute, and for how many people was that good for?

Depends, but given the variables of temperature, room loading, and the desired rapidity of the reaction, Green calculates 2.5 kg to 10 kg of Zyklon would provide the necessary concentration.

I assume that the Germans, a highly technically developed society, were intelligent enough, even without the help of the sellers of Zyklon or its long history of use in Germany or even their (the SS) own use of it in ridding the camps of lice, to try a few simple experiments with Zyklon quantities to determine lethal dosage (which would be quite low) and then use a standard operating procedure of dumping so much Zyklon in the columns. I also assume they used quantities of Zyklon which far exceeded the minimal amount required to kill humans, which, after all, is extremely low.

Are there any records about this from that time, any instructions I could check out?

Try the URL...

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/

...it may answer some of your arguments.

There are certainly "records" on the use of hydrogen cyanide and its use as an insecticide (Green uses three published scientific papers), the Germans had a long history of use of Zyklon for pest control (even delousing whole trains, sometimes parked in tunnels which should give some pause as to consideration of its use in these tiny gassing chambers) and they bought tons of Zyklon for Auschwitz, so the camp's administrators were obviously familiar with its use.

I doubt very much that a simple SS man knew then how much less Zyklon-B it would take to kill human beings as compared to lice. Or how to calculate the amount of Zyklon required for the size of room and number of prisoners for homicidal purposes.

Oh, I see. The "simple SS man" is quite capable of calculating the amount of Zyklon required to kill lice but not humans?

How does he make this determination of its use as an insecticide in 1) various room sizes, including buildings, barracks, store rooms, or in delousing quantities of clothing, for example, and 2) does he estimate or count the lice he needs to kill to determine how many tins of Zyklon he needs? After all, the reason Auschwitz received literally tons of Zyklon B was its use in sanitation and hygiene, correct?

According to your thinking here, he is capable of determining the amounts needed to fumigate but just too damn stupid to figure out the same process involving humans he can watch die in minutes vs. tiny insects that require, at minimum, 6 hours to be exterminated, and in normal applications, 16 hours (or more)?

Since it takes about 3 - 4 hours for Zyklon-B to completely discharge its HCN content, and the members of the "Sonderkommando' already entered the alleged gas chamber after 30 minutes or so, what happened to the rest of the still HCN discharging Zyklon-B? Did they put it back into the cans?

And how much Zyklon is converted to gaseous form in what time period (relative concentration)? You do understand vapor pressure, correct? I assume that you have not read Green's article, nor looked at the three listed studies published (which he uses for their data) and what they state on the percentage of hydrogen cyanide offgassed from Zyklon in under 2 hours (even at low temperature).

What would stop the removal of the remainder of the Zyklon in the columns after the gassing was over (the humans were dead) and allowing it to offgas in the open air on the roof of the chamber? (I assume you will not make the argument that this would kill off the camp's inhabitants, but if you do wish to make it, please do so.)

Finally, after thirty or so minutes of offgassing, and in using a concentration of 900 ppm, the chambers have a volume of ~500 cubic meters, and a ventilation system capable of ~8000 cu meters/hr, or the ability to exchange air at approximately 16 air exchanges per hour.

I do HAZMAT work. The standard minimum air exchange we use is 4-6 air exchanges per hour with HEPA negative air scrubbers. This is a minimum number for structures contaminated with asbestos, lead paints, radon, or mycotoxins from metabolic compound producing fungi, i.e., toxic molds. An air exchange rate of 16 times per hour would be considered extremely high (effective) per a CIH's (Certified Industrial Hygienist) or a CHMM's (Certified Hazardous Materials Manager) written protocol.

Put another way: that is even higher than requirements for the disinfection of structures and contents contaminated by weapons grade anthrax in which exposure to a single microscopic spore could possibly lead to death.

In an initial concentration of 900 ppm of hydrogen cyanide, and with this amount of ventilation, the hydrogen cyanide concentration in the chamber would be 20 ppm in 15 minutes. OSHA's PEL ("permissible exposure limits") is 10 ppm over 8 hours.

Basically, an SS guard could simply dump a single one kilo tin in each of the four columns, wait 30 minutes (at the longest) at which time, the Zyklon carrier (the impregnated material) is removed from the column (there were mesh containers it was inserted into), the ventilation started, and within minutes, the concentration in the chamber would be low enough for the Sonderkommando could enter and start removing bodies.

They probably used more than a kilo per column to insure high concentrations, but even four 500 gram tins would kill; one in each chute, but it would require more time. Say two thousand grams per column, and you would kill all of those in the chamber in minutes.

With or without gas masks, as I don't believe the SS was overly concerned with OSHA's PEL limits for the workers.

Mark
[/b]

[Tarpon27]

ozs86 wrote:

using so much of this deadly thing that can't be ventilated as it is dangerous for others too

Of course it can be ventilated; there is no problem in ventilating a structure in which hydrogen cyanide is present.

Remember, huge amounts of Zyklon are needed for use in the extermination of arachnids, the carriers of typhus, and generated far higher concentrations of hydrogen cyanide.

One of the more interesting discussions with revisionists is the issue of Zyklon and gassing.

They argue that its use to kill humans is virtually impossible and laden with all sorts of perils, even though it requires minute amounts of Zyklon (compared to sanitation uses) over a very short time.

On the other hand, they also argue that the reason so much Zyklon was used, was humanitarian: to rid the camps and populations of the threat of typhus that requires huge amounts of Zyklon used over many hours to be effective.

Germany had been fumigating buildings, materials, food stuffs, clothing, fabrics, even whole trains and ships with Zyklon both effectively and safely for years prior to the outbreak of WWII.

However, using far less Zyklon, on basically tiny structures (the gas chambers), with far less exposure periods required is, according to the revisionists, much more dangerous and more difficult than fumigating a passenger train or a freighter for mites and lice.

It is an absurd position when considered in the context of Germany's experience in using Zyklon for years as a common pesticide.

Regards,

Mark

[Xanthro]

do you guys beleive that zyklon-b was used in the halocaust i dont
because it is so poisonous that you must vantilate the place used for 2 days and as it is used in a place full of people(the camp i mean) it may have killed everyone

You just don't think.

It's always amazing to see the stupidity that people will post, simply to advance some inane Jew Hating agenda.

Suddenly, HCN becomes so deadly that it can't be used for homocidal purposes, but the much greater amount, in much higher concentrations, for insect extermination, that's still possible.

According to your logic, people in the United States, who are executed via the Gas Chamber, sit in the chambers for two days before they are removed.

Of course, this is untrue. In fact, they simply vent the chamber, usually into the very room surrounding the chamber. The witness and the guards don't die, because it's the concentration that matters.

Xanthro

[Scott Smith]

do you guys beleive that zyklon-b was used in the halocaust i dont
because it is so poisonous that you must vantilate the place used for 2 days and as it is used in a place full of people(the camp i mean) it may have killed everyone

You just don't think.

It's always amazing to see the stupidity that people will post, simply to advance some inane Jew Hating agenda.

Suddenly, HCN becomes so deadly that it can't be used for homocidal purposes, but the much greater amount, in much higher concentrations, for insect extermination, that's still possible.

According to your logic, people in the United States, who are executed via the Gas Chamber, sit in the chambers for two days before they are removed.

Of course, this is untrue. In fact, they simply vent the chamber, usually into the very room surrounding the chamber. The witness and the guards don't die, because it's the concentration that matters.

Xanthro

My understanding is that after an American gassing the gas is vented to a chimney outside and the interior, and the body is then sprayed with an ammonia solution by masked and gloved technicians. The Sulfuric acid and cyanide salt solution is also cleaned up and disposed of as a hazardous material--which would not be a problem with Zyklon-B.

Mississippi Gaschamber building...



Any wet surface can capture HCN, which makes me wonder if the Sonderkommando could safely handle the bodies without being masked and gloved. Some testimonies refer to them eating and smoking as well.

I believe I will agree with Mark's post above about the ease of ventilating the HCN. As he notes, HCN was routinely used for fumigating whole trains in tunnels. Whether the "wire-mesh Zyklon insertion devices" from the Leichenkeller really worked as claimed, I don't know. Presumably a gaschamber would need gas-recirculation and warming, as in the delousing chambers at Dachau.

CLICK!

[Tarpon27]

Scott wrote:

Presumably a gaschamber would need gas-recirculation and warming, as in the delousing chambers at Dachau.

It is a matter of vapor pressure.

[...]

Deniers less sophisticated than Rudolf have argued that hydrogen cyanide cannot kill at temperatures below its boiling point. [24] They have not understood that liquids have vapor pressure. There is an equilibrium between gas and liquid at a given temperature. This fact can be illustrated by considering humidity. It is not necessary for the temperature to be 100°C in order for there to be a significant amount of water vapor in the air. This amount of vapor can be conveniently expressed as a partial pressure, and at equilibrium this pressure is called the vapor pressure of the substance.

Hydrogen cyanide is a liquid at room temperature with an exceedingly high vapor pressure. In fact, its vapor pressure is more than high enough to kill. Some deniers have suggested at temperatures cold enough to freeze HCN that there would be no vapor or very little; they are wrong. The vapor pressure of HCN was measured for the first time in 1926 by Perry and Porter. [25] Their results are in close agreement with the accepted values as reported by DuPont. [26] They measured the vapor pressure of the liquid and the solid as a function of temperature. A plot of their results converted to ppmv is displayed below.

[see graph]


Note that even at the lowest temperatures HCN has a vapor pressure far in excess of the rapidly lethal 300-ppmv level. On this scale, 300 ppmv is far too small to show: its height above the zero line would be one-fifth the width of a human hair.

[...]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/


The temperature on the graph, at the lowest temperature, is -30 degrees C. Does it offgas better heated? Yes. Does that matter for killing humans? No.

Regards,

Mark

[Scott Smith]

Presumably a gaschamber would need gas-recirculation and warming, as in the delousing chambers at Dachau.

It is a matter of vapor pressure.

[...]

Deniers less sophisticated than Rudolf have argued that hydrogen cyanide cannot kill at temperatures below its boiling point. [24] They have not understood that liquids have vapor pressure. There is an equilibrium between gas and liquid at a given temperature. This fact can be illustrated by considering humidity. It is not necessary for the temperature to be 100°C in order for there to be a significant amount of water vapor in the air. This amount of vapor can be conveniently expressed as a partial pressure, and at equilibrium this pressure is called the vapor pressure of the substance.

Hydrogen cyanide is a liquid at room temperature with an exceedingly high vapor pressure. In fact, its vapor pressure is more than high enough to kill. Some deniers have suggested at temperatures cold enough to freeze HCN that there would be no vapor or very little; they are wrong. The vapor pressure of HCN was measured for the first time in 1926 by Perry and Porter. [25] Their results are in close agreement with the accepted values as reported by DuPont. [26] They measured the vapor pressure of the liquid and the solid as a function of temperature. A plot of their results converted to ppmv is displayed below.

[see graph]


Note that even at the lowest temperatures HCN has a vapor pressure far in excess of the rapidly lethal 300-ppmv level. On this scale, 300 ppmv is far too small to show: its height above the zero line would be one-fifth the width of a human hair.

[...]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/


The temperature on the graph, at the lowest temperature, is -30 degrees C. Does it offgas better heated? Yes. Does that matter for killing humans? No.

Regards,

Mark

First of all, I have a hard time taking a scientific report couched in the Denier-this/Denier-that rhetoric very seriously--but aside from that, I didn't say it couldn't work.

But I'm puzzled that the Germans would build these "wire-mesh Zyklon introduction columns" when they were already using a proven technology using gas-recirculation and warming, as below used for fumigating tunnels and the delousing cubicles at Dachau.

CLICK!

[Roberto]

Presumably a gaschamber would need gas-recirculation and warming, as in the delousing chambers at Dachau.

It is a matter of vapor pressure.

[...]

Deniers less sophisticated than Rudolf have argued that hydrogen cyanide cannot kill at temperatures below its boiling point. [24] They have not understood that liquids have vapor pressure. There is an equilibrium between gas and liquid at a given temperature. This fact can be illustrated by considering humidity. It is not necessary for the temperature to be 100°C in order for there to be a significant amount of water vapor in the air. This amount of vapor can be conveniently expressed as a partial pressure, and at equilibrium this pressure is called the vapor pressure of the substance.

Hydrogen cyanide is a liquid at room temperature with an exceedingly high vapor pressure. In fact, its vapor pressure is more than high enough to kill. Some deniers have suggested at temperatures cold enough to freeze HCN that there would be no vapor or very little; they are wrong. The vapor pressure of HCN was measured for the first time in 1926 by Perry and Porter. [25] Their results are in close agreement with the accepted values as reported by DuPont. [26] They measured the vapor pressure of the liquid and the solid as a function of temperature. A plot of their results converted to ppmv is displayed below.

[see graph]


Note that even at the lowest temperatures HCN has a vapor pressure far in excess of the rapidly lethal 300-ppmv level. On this scale, 300 ppmv is far too small to show: its height above the zero line would be one-fifth the width of a human hair.

[...]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/


The temperature on the graph, at the lowest temperature, is -30 degrees C. Does it offgas better heated? Yes. Does that matter for killing humans? No.

Regards,

Mark

First of all, I have a hard time taking a scientific report couched in the Denier-this/Denier-that rhetoric very seriously--but aside from that, I didn't say it couldn't work.

But the pseudo-scientific mumblings of a certified Holocaust denier are the
epitome of scientific seriousness to Reverend Smith, aren't they? Very instructive.

But I'm puzzled that the Germans would build these "wire-mesh Zyklon introduction columns" when they were already using a proven technology using gas-recirculation and warming, as below used for fumigating tunnels and the delousing cubicles at Dachau.

"I don't understand why they would have done it this way" is no argument against conclusive documentary and eyewitness evidence that this was exactly how they did it.

The evidence and the advantages of the procedure are discussed in detail in the online article Zyklon Introduction Columns, by Jamie McCarthy
and Mark Van Alstine. An excerpt from this article:

At Auschwitz-Birkenau, in the gas chambers of crematoria II and III, Zyklon-B was poured in through holes in the roof. After early experiments with this poison, the camp staff had learned that it was important to allow the pellets of Zyklon to be removed after the victims' death, and also to spread them to increase the speed of outgassing.

The solution to these problems was a wire mesh column, which ran from the floor up through the roof. An SS man, wearing a gas mask and standing on the roof, would pour the pellets into the top of the column and place a wooden cover over it. The pellets fell into an inner wire mesh basket, which held them as they released their poison into the gas chamber.

After the mass murder was complete, the cover was opened, the basket was pulled up, and the Zyklon expelled the remainder of its poison harmlessly into the open air. Meanwhile, the ventilation of the gas chamber and the cremation of the corpses could begin.

These columns are listed in the inventory of crematorium II, March 31, 1943, as "wire-mesh insertion devices" (Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung) with "wooden covers" (Holzblenden).

Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... o-columns/

[Scott Smith]

Hi Roberto,

Yes, I've read McCarthy's article but I didn't find it convincing. At least it didn't answer my question as to WHY those indubitable Nazi butchers did it that way and not another.

Ah, such are the troubles of a skeptic.

[Roberto]

Hi Roberto,

Yes, I've read McCarthy's article but I didn't find it convincing.

Why so, Reverend? Just because it challenges your Faith, or are there also more substantial reasons?

At least it didn't answer my question as to WHY those indubitable Nazi butchers did it that way and not another.

It provides some rather plausible explanations, AFAIC. And then, what matters is the evidence that they did it the way they did it. Considerations as to why they didn't do it in another way are purely academic.

Ah, such are the troubles of a skeptic.

Read: "Such are the troubles of a True Believer posing as a skeptic, desperately trying to dig up considerations that may protect him from the evidence that challenges his Faith."

[Scott Smith]

I don't find it convincing because it seems shoehorned to fit the Survivor testimony, which is not quite the vaunted convergence-of-evidence we have come to expect with Holo-stories.