Patagonian U-boat wreck

[Simon Gunson]

Hi everyone

Following is the txt of a newspaper article about the refloating of a U-boat found in Patagonian waters:

"Refloat of Nazi sub off Argentina coast considered
08:12 p.m Mar 31, 1998 Eastern

BUENOS AIRES, March 31 (Reuters) - Two residents of southern Argentina have asked permission to refloat a German World War II submarine sunk off the Patagonian coast, a German Embassy official said on Tuesday.

German ambassador to Argentina Adolf Ritter Von Wagner "received the letter and it is in transit," an embassy spokesperson said. "We don't know what the decision will be."

Antonio Rivera and Mirta Vicente pinpointed the location of the sunken German warship, which they claim to have seen in 1959, 1962 and 1966, newspaper La Manana del Sur reported.

Area residents believe Germans disembarked from warships on the coast in 1945 near the end of World War II.

Two other Nazi subs, a U-530 and a U-977, arrived in the port of Mar del Plata in July and August of that year.

Argentina was a haven for Nazi war criminals such as Holocaust architect Adolf Eichmann, who was captured in Buenos Aires after the war, and Hitler's confidant Martin Bormann. REUTERS

Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. "

This story seems to suggest the U-boat they are talking about is not
U-530 or U-977, but another U-boat entirely!

Can anybody tell me please what became of U-977 and U-530 after they surrendered to Argentina ?

If it is not one of these known surrendered U-boats then which one was it ?

U-851, U-196 or U-1000 are possibly candidates. Has anyone got further info about this refloating project. If a war grave, they might not be able to be raised. More likely however it's crew deserted her and went ashore... :wink:

[FANGIO]

Hi Simon!
About U-530 and U-977:
http://uboat.net/boats/u530.htm
http://uboat.net/boats/u977.htm
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/02/27/43768.html

Regarding Martin Bormann, I'm not so sure he lived in Argentina. I can confirm Eichmann (well known case) was captured. Another ex SS Officer captured in Argentina a few years ago was Erich Priebke.

Best regards.

FANGIO

[Simon Gunson]

Dear Fangio

Thanks for the Pravda link. I've come across the U-boat one before but never thought to look for fate of U-977 & U-530 there.

I was more interested in whether this is an unknown U-boat or the wreck of U-977/530. Sounds like an unidentified one ?

As for Bormann I expect I am unpopular for believing Bormann did escape Berlin in spite of the DNA confirmation since he had red volcanic soil caked in his skull. Bormann so the myth goes lived at Colony Waldner 555 on the banks of the river Parana not far from Buenos Aires. Gestapo Muller is supposed to have settled in Cordoba in Argentina. Perhaps I am mistaken for Cordova in Peru. That was not the point of this entry however.

Muchos gracis

[Simon Gunson]

Dear Fangio et al,

Hey this is getting really exciting. I used your suggested links and discovered U-977 was handed to the Americans and sunk in November
1946 of Massacussetts USA (probably with U-234). Similarly U-530 was sunk by the Americans off Cape Cod in November 1947.

That conclusively proves the wreck in my Reuters article is none of the known U-boats.

Since you live in Argentina Fangio please could you research the newspaper "la Manana del Sur" for us to find out where this U-boat is ?
Also perhaps you could track down Antonio Rivera and Mirta Vicente please and let us know what they claim ?

Martin Bormann was reputed to have commissioned a Black Fleet of
U-boats with Nazi fanatics and SS crew members. They were part of a
U-training flotilla based at Bornholm which had no recorded U-boats.

U-1000 was sunk in the Baltic in a training exercise, refloated and then disappeared. There were four others like this one and U-196 went missing sailing from Djakarta via Australia with no record of a sinking. Her loss was attributed to mines which were not laid until a week after she left Djakarta. There were mysterious sightings of a U-boat near Tasmania when U-862 was near Sydney. U-851 disappeared in the central Atlantic
in late March 1944 en-route for Penang. No Allied forces claimed to attack her.

The appearance of a new U-boat wreck in Patagonian waters corroborates claims by Ladislas Farago which were long dismissed as baseless conspiracy theory.

Thanks for your help Fangio. We should get a National Geographic grant to take a diving expedition to the wreck and sell the documentary aye ?

Ciao Simon

[FANGIO]

Hi Simon!
Give me some time and I'll see what I can do.
I'll contact you as soon as I have new info.
Best regards.

FANGIO

[Simon Gunson]

Dear Fangio this might interest you...

In his book "Aftermath, Martin Bormann and the Fourth Reich" Ladislas Farago talks about Operation Fire Land to ship documents currency and gold reserves to Argentina from 1943 onwards through Spain. It is also reputed that Bormann shifted documents incriminating Roosevelt, Churchill, the British Royal Family and the Vatican etc to Argentina with which to blackmail their persuers.

Argentine Navy intelligence service special investigator Niceforo Alarcon submitted a report 18 April 1945 about U-boat landings. It was entitled "German disembarkation at San Clemente del Tuyu and submitted to the Ministry of the Navy. A copy exists at Coordinacion Federal numbered CF-OP-2315.

The report pinpointed Argentine Navy Lt Rudolf Freude and Eva Duarte (Eva Peron) as principal activists in the U-boat landings. It related to landings at a secluded spot in Samborombon Bay off Punta Norte near the village of San Clemente del Tuyu. It referred to the latest shipment being number 1744. Shipments began August 1942 and occured at intervals of 6-8 weeks during 1943-44. Administrative support for these missions from my own research seems to have been through the 28th
U-boat training flotilla at Bornholm in the Baltic after Normandy landings whilst control in Spain was through Gen Kurt Gross of Seicherheitsdienst VI-D-4.

Bormann through Kaltenbrunner controlled Operation Bernhard to forge British and US currency. Laundering of the currency and gold landed by
U-boat was performed by Heinrich Dorge Central Bank of Argentina and Bormann's comptroller Ricardo von Leute at Banco Aleman Transatlantico. Accounts were opened in the name of Eva Duarte.

Gottfreide Standstede and Wilhelm Seidlitz at Delfino Shipping.
U-boats were loaded at a secret base near Cadiz. Unloading was supervised apparently by former Graf Spee officers Fkapt Paul Ascher and Lt Heinrich Kummer.

On 22 May 1944 General Faupel acting in Argentina for Bormann wrote to him referring to two reports. One from von Leute and the other from Argentine General Pistarini about growing difficulties. Bormann responded with advice to commandeer two long range aircraft from Adolf Galland Luftwaffe. I find this hard to accept as Galland was a fighter General. Bormann referred to FW200 Condors, but it is quite feasible I/KG200 provided Junkers Ju-290 aircraft. Shortly afterwards the Normandy landings prevented overland road shipments of gold bullion to Cadiz.

Ju-290 A-5 aircraft constructor's number was 110178. It served with FAGr.5 (fernaufklaringsgruppe) with a serial KR+LI from Feb 1944 until 4th April 1944. It then became 9V+DK from 4th April 1944. "9V" was the serial number used by the Luftwaffe's ultra secret KG200 unit.

The aircraft was then rebuilt at Templehoff into a civil aircraft in September 1944 with DLH serial D-AITR "Bayeren" from October 1944. Why a millitary transport aircraft would be converted to a civillian role during war is noteworthy by itself. It is known to have flown from Czechoslovakia to Barcelona on 26 April 1945 piloted by Flug Haupt Paul Sluzalek. Later it became inducted into the Spanish air force.

A second Ju-290-A6 piloted by I/KG200 constructor's number with unit codes PJ+PS (possibly constr. number 10185) was flown to Barcelona by I/KG200 Flug Haupt Heinz Baur from Horshing on or after 30 April 1945 for the RHSA. This aircraft is thought to have carried documents flown out of Berlin in April 1945 and VIP passengers according to secret orders Br.BNo.1136/45 from Fuhrungsstab I/Ic issued to I/KG200.

Bormann in another book is said to have transferred Germany's nuclear program to a laboratory on Huemul Island in Lake Nahuel Huapi in Argentina. This project allegedly led by Austrian scientist Ronald Richter.

At Cordoba where Gestpo Muller is said to have settled after the war, Maj Gen Hans Steudmann under the alias Pedro Gassman built an airfield to accept direct Ju-290 flights from Spain in 1945

[Kurt_Steiner]

Even if the idea of Nazis scaping to South America, it's a little bit difficult to swallow the idea of Bormann living quietly in America. If Eichmann was found, why not Bormann?

It sounds a bit of fairy tale, don't you think, gentlemen?

Best regards

[FANGIO]

Simon & Kurt_Steiner:
many stories have been told about Bormann. Take a look at this one:
http://www.raoul-wallenberg.org.ar/english/tozer2.htm

[Simon Gunson]

Dear Kurt

Well if you can explain to me why Bormann's skull dug up at Berlin in 1972 had red volcanic soil caked to it ...

Why Bormann's skull had eight fillings not performed during the war including a postwar bridge from lower left to lower right lateral incisor...

Why the same part of Ulap fairgrounds was dug up several times from 1963 to 1972 and the body was not found the first time...

The rather inconvenient presence of a U-boat wreck reported by Reuters which is none of the U-boats known to have surrendered there in 1945 (ie U-997 and U530 sunk of USA in 1946 and 1947)...

Or the file # CF-OP-2315 by Argentine Naval Intelligence at the national archives reporting on U-boat landing number 1744 (since 1942) on Argentine shores...

Then I am all ears Kurt

The law of Ockham's Razor says that when you eliminate all the theories that don't fit the facts, then the theory you are left with that does match all the facts, no matter how incredible must be the truth.

Because conventional explanations of the war do not answer these glaring inconsistencies I must assume the fairy tale is that which is most often offered for public consumption. Bormann's business manager is known to have lived in Ecuador after the war. Borman's counterfit currency man Frederic Schwend lived in Peru. Josef Mengele it is well accepted lived in Brazil until 1974. Why not Bormann ?

Having read a few sources about Eichmann it seems the Isrealis felt they had better evidence to indict Eichmann. Eichmann's son identified where Gestapo Muller lived in Cordoba.

I previously quoted Eichmann's claim in an Isreali prison that Bormann was still alive, however Ladislas Farago cited sources that Bormann lived in Paraguay at colony Waldner on the banks of the River Parana until his death from throat cancer in 1959. If that is the case then he was already dead when Eichmann was captured in 1960.

Some people will never be convinced unless one produces a signed affidavit from all parties corroborated to the last degree. I make no apology.

I just ask for those unconvinced by my theory to satisfy me why I should be convinced by their inadequate explanations ?
I'm all ears... ready and waiting for a better explanation.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Dear Simon

Well if you can explain to me why Bormann's skull dug up at Berlin in 1972 had red volcanic soil caked to it ...

Why Bormann's skull had eight fillings not performed during the war including a postwar bridge from lower left to lower right lateral incisor...

Why the same part of Ulap fairgrounds was dug up several times from 1963 to 1972 and the body was not found the first time...

Well, I cannot explain all those facts, because I lack enough info about it. Never mind, I'll try to got it, Simon. We all know that there are no volcanos near Berlin. By the way, have you consider that der Führer had ordered Bormann to build one to burn the Jews in a cheaper way? I know, it's a disgusting joke, really bad taste... Sorry

Bormann's business manager is known to have lived in Ecuador after the war. Borman's counterfit currency man Frederic Schwend lived in Peru

Well, if everyone knew that, why no one tried to do anything about it?

I just ask for those unconvinced by my theory to satisfy me why I should be convinced by their inadequate explanations ?

You're in your right not to be convinced until enough evidence is given. I fully agree with you.

It's just the fact that I find really unconvincing the idea of present day Nazis taking back Bormann's body back to Berlin, just to convince the world. Too complicated, too good to be true.

Finally, if Bormann managed to run away, why not Hitler? And then we got the never ending story.

Nervertheless I admit that yoour theory is quite plausible. But I'm still a bit unconvinced about it. IF everyone knew there was a Nazi colony in South America, why no one did anything about it? Ok, the USA and the UK because they wanted to get some kind of profit of it. But the USSR? Stalin won't be satisfied by Washington's explanations and would try to catch them(see Berkut, by Joseph Heywood). And Israel? Would have been satisfied just with Eichmann?

To sum up, I find your theory very interesting. But...

Best regards

PS: Anyone has any idea about that unknow UBoat? Is it unidentified yet?

[Simon Gunson]

Dear Kurt...

Thanks for keeping an open mind which I respect and appreciate. All too often I get attacked by morons who will not study the information. I welcome rational debate however.

I don't subscribe to myths about Hitler escaping. that's the realm of UFOs.

The Soviets deliberately generated a false accusation after the war for political reasons when they had already recovered his body and knew the truth. Hitler did die and I think Hilter had psychological problems which made suicide a logical choice. I have an unusual theory about Hitler marrying Eva Braun for revenge because he figured out that she leaked information to the Allies through her brother in law SS LtGen Fegelein.

Bormann's business manager Alfons Sassen was wanted as a Dutch war criminal, but perhaps could not be extradited from Equador, or as happened with some war criminals charges were quietly dropped in return for co-operation in Cold War issues ?

Frederico Schwed was not indicted at Nuremburg and was protected by the Catholic aid agency CARATAS and the Peruvian government. He was later implicated for the murder of Banchero Rossi, a fishing magnate involved with Caratas. Scuse the pun but both Sassen and Schwend were little fish.

You ask why nobody tried to do anything about it ?

Well Kurt nobody with the power to do so wanted to do anything about it.
Bormann had negotiated the secret surrender of Germany to the Americans from Spring 1943 to the OSS.

Bormann and Kammler who both disappeared helped shift rocket and nuclear scientists to Bavaria so the Americans and not the Soviets would capture them. Bormann and Gestapo Muller helped the OSS (later CIA) develop the Nazi spy network in eastern Europe into a CIA network.

Joint CIA/Vatican Ratlines helped members of SS divisions composed from Russian Ukrainian and Hungarian volunteers to escape. The Americans needed the co-operation of former Nazis and were not going to hound them if they quietly retired to obscurity in South America.

The CIA has dirty hands and are responsible for promoting many false stories to obscure the true story. I don't necessarily believe the Op JB story either. Bormann to me was the ultimate creep of WW2. Hitler was a madman seduced by his own mental health problems. Bormann however was a cold calculating manipulator who profited from death and misery.

[Max von Schuler-Kobayashi]

In Japan we have a sensationalist author, a Mr. Ochiai Nobuhiko. (He claims to know who REALLY killed Kennedy, that is why he is afraid to go to America, because the CIA will kill him. Uhn, Mr. Ochiai, if the CIA is mad at you, hiding in Tokyo won't help)

Well this august gentleman wrote a book about his visit to a secret village in the Chiliean Andes. All the residents were German exiles from WWII. He claims that there were secret aircraft factories there, and what we view in our skies and beleive to UFO's are actually test aircraft built at this secret facility in Chile.

I have lived in Japan for 30 years, and have been an actor for some 20 years. I nearly met Mr. Ochiai on a tv performance. I nearly met Mr. Ochiai on a tv show. When I first came to Japan, I was a US Marine, and I also served as an undercover Naval Intelligence Agent.

Well a Japanese talk show was looking to find a spy to appear for a certain segment, they asked the American embassy; (nope, we don't have any spies in Japan) they asked the Soviet embassy (nope, no spies here either!) So they called a casting agency specializing in foreigners (Hey! Max was a spy! Put him on the show!)

This Mr. Ochiai was slated to be a panelist on the show, but when he heard an actual US intelligence agent would be the guest, he declined. Chicken!

They put a ski mask on me, and disguised my voice, but everyone who knew me recognized my beer gut. (Japanese are skinny!)

[MAX_theHitMan]

Very interesting story on the U-boat recovery from the sea. I would like to be informed on further happenings into this story in the near future.

But please, don´t everyone get all hypered up about something which might not be what it seems. After all, everyone was expecting to find gold bullion or even a few kilograms of "nazi uranium" aboard U-534 ( http://www.u534.coolfreepages.com/Basis_Frame.htm ) when it was salvaged, but unfortunately all they found was a... U-boat.
Interestingly enough though, they did find a "special treasure" for military afficionatos and historians, a very rare acoustic torpedo of the T5/11 series. So, no one really knows what might be inside this newly found U-boat off the coast of South America. Perhaps even spare parts to a flying saucer
...but like I said, don´t everyone get all hypered up about something that might just not be. let´s stick to the facts.

cheers
Max

[Kurt_Steiner]

Dear Simon,

The aircraft was then rebuilt at Templehoff into a civil aircraft in September 1944 with DLH serial D-AITR "Bayeren" from October 1944. Why a millitary transport aircraft would be converted to a civillian role during war is noteworthy by itself. It is known to have flown from Czechoslovakia to Barcelona on 26 April 1945 piloted by Flug Haupt Paul Sluzalek. Later it became inducted into the Spanish air force.

I've found some info about the Ju290 you mention. According to some poeple I've talked here in Barcelona -and it is confirmed by an internet source at least... amazing-, a Ju 290 landed in Barcelona in the last week of April 1945. It was plane used by Hitler and it was transformed into some kind of civil plane with capacity to carry 50 people. It belonged to the I/KG200 and flew from Firstenwalde piloted by a Haputmann Braun. Later the plane was used as a transport by the Escuela Superior de Vuelo, en Salamanca. It was withdrawn from service after an accident in the 50s.

There were no more Ju 290s landing here in the 1945, according to my sources, and they were pretty sure. This is what I gathered. I hope it's of any use to you, Simon.

According to http://www.histaer.org/hombres/pombo.htm, the Ju 290 was from Lufthansa, but I don't remember this kind of planes being given to civil airlines.

Best regards.

[Le Page]

There was only one (1) A-6; this was the Fuhrer's personal aircraft--identification code KR+LP and Junkers works number 0185. On 27 April 45 Braun flew this to Barcelona from Berlin, the passengers disembarked and the pilot and crew returned to Germany. The A-6 stayed in Spain.

I personally believe Hermann Fegelein was not shot; I believe he was on this flight.