SS battles

[Hans_Rudel]

What battles did the SS come closet to totally dominating the enemy? Where were their greatest "Victorys"? I'm a bit of newbie and my knowledge is mostly of equipment/individual personalities and the like. I'm trying to learn more of specific battles.
Thx

I would go with Arnhem or Kharkov, although, some of their greatest battles were not victories. A lot of their greatest preformances ended in defeat.

To which defeats are you referring?

Kursk and defensive battle after Citadel, During Cobra, Normandy in general, During Spring Awakening, Narva, during Wacht Am Rhein, the Korsun pocket, Italy, Vienna, the Caucasus, the Cherkassy Pockets, Warsaw and Poland in general ('Wiking' and 'Totenkopf') and probable many more that I am missing. Oh, and even Berlin, 'Nord' fought pretty damn well there.

So essentially every defensive undertaking from mid 1943 onward?

Well, those are probable the majority of major defensive struggles that the stronger Waffen SS Divisions participated in. I wouldn't say that they were every defensive undertaking they ever made for 2 years, but I would say that a lot of the larger undertakings are mentioned.

[Paddy Keating]

One of the most glorious battles of the Waffen-SS was thbe airborne assault on Drvar on May 25/26 1944 when SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 attempted to get Tito. It is hard to decide if it was a defeat or a victory. They didn't succeed in their objective and suffered almost 80% KIA and WIA from the 850-odd who went in by parachute and glider but even Titists admitted that the paras killed thousands of experienced partisans. And what of the Schwedt and Zehden bridgeheads and the heroic rearguard battles of 1945 when the SS Parachute Battalion and elements of the SS-Jagdverbände achieved their objectives of holding off massed Soviet attacks and delaying the Soviet advance? Victories? Defeats? Or just examples of stunning military efficiency, discipline and heroism in the face of total catastrophe? The paras of the Waffen-SS were far-removed from the stereotype of the hardened, politically indoctrinated Nazi of popular lore.

PK

[mars]

The casualities of the 874-men SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 in this operation were 576 men killed or missing and 48 wounded ! on the return they infilicted about 700-800 hundred casualities on Tito's partisans which included both combat and non-combat personals, these SS paratroops failed to capture or kill any important leaders of the parisan, they captured no significant amount weapons. Judged by any kind of the military standard, this operation was a total failure.

[Paddy Keating]

First of all, this thread is about "Waffen-SS battles". Drvar was a Waffen-SS battle, which is why I mentioned it. But, with your indulgence, I would just like to address Mars' contention that the Drvar mission was a total failure and that only eight-hundred partisans were killed.

The casualities of the 874-men SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 in this operation were 576 men killed or missing and 48 wounded !

I stated an approximate figure because this thread is not about Drvar. But since you bring it up, of the 874 soldiers who landed in the valley by parachute and glider in three waves on May 25th, less than 850 were members of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500. The others were attached specialists, including interrogators and interpreters, from Luftwaffe and Brandenburg units. There were also specialists from other Waffen-SS units and, of course, the kriegsberichter sent along to record the mission.

You state that the SS-Fallschirmjäger inflicted 700 to 800 casualties on the Titist partisans during the battle, including non-combattant personnel. In other words, they killed civilians. It is true that civilians were summarily executed but it is not strictly relevant to this discussion as we are not here to judge the actions of the SS paratroopers but to discuss Waffen-SS victories and successes.

on the return they infilicted about 700-800 hundred casualities on Tito's partisans which included both combat and non-combat personals

It all depends upon which source you use and also upon your ability to understand source material. There were an estimated 800 partisans in Drvar itself, along with about 200 civilians, when the first two waves landed in the valley at 05:55 and 06:00 hrs on May 25th. SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 had secured the town by 09:00 hrs and held about 400 Yugoslavs prisoner.

So I think that the figure of "700-800 casualities" which you give refers just to the partisans and civilians killed during the street and house-to-house fighting and then by summary execution. It is true that treatment of prisoners was not gentle but then, as I found out working in the Balkans in the 1990s, Yugoslavia is not a gentle place. Most of the 200 civilians in the heavily militarised town were assisting the partisans. So many of them were questioned and then shot. It was brutal but legal, otherwise the unit would have been indicted afterwards for war crimes.

During the night of May 25th/26th, after the surviving SS-Fallschirmjäger had established their defensive position in the cemetary, the partisans mounted attack after attack in 'human wave' mode and were mown down like corn at harvest time. One German veteran told me that it was like the scenes from the movie Zulu, depicting the defence of Rorke's Drift.

The partisans lost thousands of men and women during the battle, not hundreds. They lost even more in the days that followed, during the anti-partisan sweeps carried out by the remaining active personnel of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500, with elements of Prinz Eugen, before their withdrawal from the area.

OKW's summary of the Drvar mission and the related mopping-up operations in the area in the week that followed states that "the enemy lost 6,240 men", a figure that former members of Josip Broz's staff would later confirm as broadly accurate.

The Germans failed to get Tito but one cannot dismiss the Drvar mission as a total failure. This is a very simplistic view. Even though Tito escaped - largely as a result of flawed German intelligence reports which gave the SS paratroopers the wrong location for his HQ - they still managed to inflict significant casualties on the communist partisans, to capture valuable weapons, equipment and documents and to neutralise the Allied and Soviet military missions.

Taking an even broader view, we have the Germans to thank for the fact that the postwar maps did not show the entire eastern Mediterranean as part of the Soviet Bloc. Had Tito not been evacuated to Italy by the Allies, he would probably have been assassinated by one of his entrouage or even by the Soviet military mission and the Soviet Army would have swept into the Balkans and on into Greece, where communists were trying to take over by force of arms, and on into the Middle-East and through to North Africa, where local revolutionary leaders would have welcomed Soviet aid to rid themselves of their European rulers. Stalin would have tried it.

I disagree with your simplistic view that "judged by any kind of the military standard, the Drvar operation was a total failure". You have to study these things in a broader context. Getting Tito was never a very realistic objective. But the mission achieved a number of other things, which were more important in the final analysis.

But as I said, this is not about Drvar. I merely mentioned the Battle of Drvar in the context of "Waffen-SS battles", which is the focus of this thread. I also mentioned some other Waffen-SS battles.

PK

[Mark V.]

During the night of May 25th/26th, after the surviving SS-Fallschirmjäger had established their defensive position in the cemetary, the partisans mounted attack after attack in 'human wave' mode and were mown down like corn at harvest time. One German veteran told me that it was like the scenes from the movie Zulu, depicting the defence of Rorke's Drift.

The partisans lost thousands of men and women during the battle, not hundreds. They lost even more in the days that followed, during the anti-partisan sweeps carried out by the remaining active personnel of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500, with elements of Prinz Eugen, before their withdrawal from the area.

OKW's summary of the Drvar mission and the related mopping-up operations in the area in the week that followed states that "the enemy lost 6,240 men", a figure that former members of Josip Broz's staff would later confirm as broadly accurate.

No offense Paddy, I like reading your very informative posts, but this one is really hard to believe. For starters there weren't that many partisan units present in the immediate Drvar area and more importantly the XV.Geb.AK's after action report (7 June 1944) shows "only" 1,916 counted deads and 419 captured rifles. Am I missing something?

cheers

[mars]

One of the most glorious battles of the Waffen-SS was thbe airborne assault on Drvar on May 25/26 1944 when SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 attempted to get Tito. It is hard to decide if it was a defeat or a victory. They didn't succeed in their objective and suffered almost 80% KIA and WIA from the 850-odd who went in by parachute and glider but even Titists admitted that the paras killed thousands of experienced partisans. And what of the Schwedt and Zehden bridgeheads and the heroic rearguard battles of 1945 when the SS Parachute Battalion and elements of the SS-Jagdverbände achieved their objectives of holding off massed Soviet attacks and delaying the Soviet advance? Victories? Defeats? Or just examples of stunning military efficiency, discipline and heroism in the face of total catastrophe? The paras of the Waffen-SS were far-removed from the stereotype of the hardened, politically indoctrinated Nazi of popular lore.

PK

you do not have to be so excited, and yes, these SS paratroops did executed civilian, but these civilian death did not included in these partisan casualities, you shall remember one thing, the target of these SS paratroops were Tito's headquater, and you should realise that in any military or govement headquater, there would be a large amount non-combat personal, they could be belonged to communication, logistic units etcs, in fact there may be no more than 300 partisan combat troops at Tito's headquater when Germany strike.

[PK]

One of the most glorious battles of the Waffen-SS was the defence of the city of Narwa and the Tannenbergstellung ("BlaueBergen") Where the III. SS-Pz.Korps (and also 20. SS Div) under the command of Felix Steiner withstood a four time stronger enemy in hard fighting for over a half year in 1944.

/PK

[Benoit Douville]

PK,

I totally agree with you that the defense of Narva by the Waffen-SS was a glorious defensive Battle.

Regards

[alan]

How about the LAH in Greece?

[Timo]

For me one of the most interesting achievements of the war is the 1943 - 1944 winter campaign fought by the Leibstandarte. In November 1943 the Division was moved to the Ukraine with 18.000 men but when they were finally withdrawn to the west after five months of continuous action, only 180 men filled the marketplace of Lemberg when the Division arrived there on 15.04.1944, despite several groups of reinforcements send in January and February.

[Paddy Keating]

Mike,

I think that report refers solely to the Drvar battlefield. Regarding the numbers of partisans in the area and who quickly arrived, I think you need to check your sources. I'll come back to you on it when I get home later this week but there were several brigades involved. Of course, some of the 'brigades' were numerically more like battalions but I do think that you are perhaps underestimating the numbers of armed partisans in the Drvar region on May 25th 1944. It was Tito's HQ.

Bear in mind too that the anti-partisan sweeps in the zones adjacent to Drvar, like Bihac and Petrovac, went on until June 7th and 8th. The survivors of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 were still in the Bihac area on active service on June 6th.

The report to which you refer was dated June 7th and would have taken several days to collate and produce. So it obviously refers to Drvar itself. Remember also that partisans usually took their dead away with them, when possible, for tactical reasons, to deny the enemy information. I doubt if we will ever know the true figure of partisan KIA as a result of the raid on Drvar and the subsequent sweeps in the area.

The claimed figure of 6,200-plus seems high. 1,916 seems low and probably refers, as I said, just to Drvar. The partisans said that their losses were high but communists liked to exaggerate their sacrifices for the proletariat so they were hardly likely to disagree with German claims of 6,200-plus. It's a bit like trying to come up with credible figures for medieval battle casualty rates. Personally, I'm inclined to split the difference, which gives us a figure of 3,000 to 3,500 Yugoslav deaths in those two weeks.

you do not have to be so excited, and yes, these SS paratroops did executed civilian, but these civilian death did not included in these partisan casualities, you shall remember one thing, the target of these SS paratroops were Tito's headquater, and you should realise that in any military or govement headquater, there would be a large amount non-combat personal, they could be belonged to communication, logistic units etcs, in fact there may be no more than 300 partisan combat troops at Tito's headquater when Germany strike.

You are splitting hairs now! In any case, you really do not know what you are talking about, do you? You cannot simply say that signals and logistics units in armed forces in general are "non combat personnel". This may be true in some armies and in some units but anyone who joins a partisan army becomes a combattant for the simple reason that they will have to fight for their lives if trapped by regular armed forces because they will usually be summarily executed if they surrender or are captured alive.

And don't lecture me about the military. I am quite sure that I know, firsthand, a lot more than you about the realities of achieving objectives in combat situations. I also spent part of my military service as a signaller. In fact, I was a Regimental Signals Instructor. But I was a Parachute Regiment soldier first. I would like to see you walk into one of our battalion CPs and tell the blokes manning the radios that they were "non-combattants". I'd like to see you tell a Parachute Regiment cook that he was less of a soldier than the Toms in the rifle companies.

I doubt if you have the faintest idea of what I am talking about. You came into this thread to provoke people you see as pro-Nazi, my Red Chinese friend, as the following extract from your last post shows.

you do not have to be so excited

I know that we are supposed to be polite to one another in these forums but I am not going to take this kind of thing from a man whose place of residence in the People's Republic of China, command of English and access to the internet indicate, assuming that he is Chinese, that he is in a privileged position in Red China, one of the most evil dictatorships in the world. Even if Mars is a foreigner in China, his presence in China, in Shanghai particularly, suggests that he has government approval. I don't need to describe Red China's record when it comes to expansionist aggression, repression, torture and murder. And I am not talking about the past either. China is still up to its old Maoist tricks.

So, Mars, I suggest that you take a long look at yourself in the mirror before you come onto this forum implying that I - or anyone else - is a Nazi because of an academic interest in the Waffen-SS and their battles and campaigns. Because you are living in a place and supprting a system that is just as morally bankrupt as Nazism.

PK

[Timo]

(...) and yes, these SS paratroops did executed civilian, but these civilian death did not included in these partisan casualities, (...)

...Hmmm, usually the SS did not draw a clear line between civilians and partisans. They simply labeled everybody they wanted to get rid of as "partisanen".

[Paddy Keating]

(...) and yes, these SS paratroops did executed civilian, but these civilian death did not included in these partisan casualities, (...)

...Hmmm, usually the SS did not draw a clear line between civilians and partisans. They simply labeled everybody they wanted to get rid of as "partisanen".

Very true! In Yugoslavia, they went even further and labelled Tito and his forces as "bandits", as the attached SS-PK press photo from Drvar shows. This is a photographic print as sent to news agencies by OKW(SS) but the caption is integral instead of being typed on a slip of paper and stuck to the reverse of the print.

Later on in 1944, during the retreat, they stopped referring officially to the Titist armed forces as 'banditen" and started calling them "partisanen". I doubt if this stopped German soldiers from shooting anyone they wanted to get rid of and I doubt that it stopped partisans from killing German prisoners too.

The distinction may have been legalistic in that it was easier to justify shooting "bandits" in a war zone than to justify shooting "partisans" who were recognised as legal combattants by the Western Allies - and by the Soviets - in a country as ethnically and politically fragmented as Yugoslavia.

For the Germans, there was a vast difference between, say, a member of the French FTP or FFI and a member of Tito's KPJ-based armed forces. Additionally, the Germans found themselves in the middle of a de facto civil war in which they were were merely one of the factions. The lines were not clearcut so it was easier just to describe people as bandits and send out security units to kill them.

This is veering off-topic though. So, how about the Battle of Grabow on February 12th 1945? Who can tell us about this?

PK

[mars]

Paddy Keating, I supposed you live in a democracy country, but I have a strange feeling that the way you talk and the way you think is just exactly like a damn communist who you so hate, since anyone who does not agree with you was kind of bad guys.
I could discuss this SS operation further, but I do not want to, because I consider myself a genterlman, and I only discuss things with other gentlemen. Although, I feel very strange that when and where I "implied" you are a "Nazi" in my post.

[Rob - wssob2]

Hi Benoit,

Don't you think the Battle of Kurland was an amazing accomplishment by the Waffen-SS considering the facts that they were completely surrounded by massive Soviet forces and they repulsed a lot of attacks. You can deny it, it was a great defensive Battle by the Waffen-SS.

Again, I don't know how "amazing" the Kurland Pocket campaign was, considering Army Group North was cut off, bottled up and couldn't participate in the defence of the Reich. Guderian & Doenitz repeatedly pleaded with Hitler to evacuate the Kurland Pocket by sea, to no avail.

Checking Wener Haupt's history of Army Group North, there were 375,000 Heer troops trapped in the pocket and an estimated 10,000+ W-SS, so it was hardly a "W-SS" defensive battle. The IIIrd SS Corps was evacuated in March 1945, probably since it was too useful to be wasted at Kurland. The remaining SS troops were from the VI SS Army Corps and the 19th SS division.