Hawker Typhoon Over-rated?

[brustcan]

Came across an interesting statistic in a book called "Encyclopedia of
Aircraft" When the Americans trapped what remained of 16 German Divisions near Falaise, France, the RAF Hawker Typhoons were called in.
In one day alone the rocket firing Typhoons destroyed 137 German tanks.
I have to question the number of tanks "claimed" destroyed, from actual.
The rockets on the Typhoons were highly inaccurate. They worked great
against infantry, horse drawn transport, and soft skinned vehicles, tanks
were another matter. I did read a story once, that American personal went
over the entire Falaise pocket, recording how effective aircraft were against tanks(this was also done after the Battle of the Bulge). If I remember right, the majority of German tanks were destroyed by artillery.
Does anyone have any more information on this subject?

[redcoat]

Its not so much that the Hawker Typoon was over-rated as the results of ground attack by all the airforces in WW2 was over-rated.

[alf]

I did read a story once, that American personal went
over the entire Falaise pocket, recording how effective aircraft were against tanks(this was also done after the Battle of the Bulge). If I remember right, the majority of German tanks were destroyed by artillery.

There was a combined Allied technical survey done, they found the vast majority of tanks were destroyed by the Germans themselves, after running out of fuel. The Typhoons hadn't been that succesful in knocking out tanks (about a dozen by memory) but they had decimated all soft skin vehicles, the result was the same, a tank destroyed.

Air to ground rockets weren't that accurate and anti aircraft defences fierce but Allied Airpower (the Typhoons and Thunderbolts) did dictate German daylight tactics so in that repect they were extremely effective.

[Tony Williams]

From: 'Flying Guns - World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45' - details on my website

"The evidence gathered by the OR teams indicated that very few tanks were destroyed by air attack. A British War Office analysis of 223 Panther tanks destroyed in 1944 revealed that only fourteen resulted from air attack (eleven to RPs and three to aircraft cannon). During the Mortain battle of 7-10 August, the RAF and USAAF launched sustained attacks on a German armoured column over a period of six hours, claiming 252 German tanks destroyed or damaged in nearly 500 sorties. It was subsequently discovered that there had only been a total of 177 tanks or tank destroyers deployed by the Germans and just 46 of those were lost, of which only nine could be attributed to air attack (seven to RPs and two to bombs). During the German retreat from the Falaise pocket later in August, the RAF and USAAF claimed 391 armoured vehicles destroyed. Shortly afterwards, the battlefield was examined and only 133 armoured vehicles of all types were found, of which just 33 had been the victim of any sort of air attack. In the retreat to the Seine, large numbers of armoured vehicles were left behind and Typhoon pilots alone claimed 222 destroyed, but only thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined were found to have been knocked out by RP attack. In the Ardennes salient, just seven out of 101 knocked-out AFVs were definitely or possibly attributed to air attack, compared with claims for 90. It should be noted that in the prevailing circumstances of a continuing retreat, there was no question of the German Army having recovered any damaged tanks in these later actions, in fact the battlefields were often littered with undamaged tanks abandoned by their crews.

One source estimates that probably no more than about 100 tanks were lost due to hits from air weapons during the entire Normandy campaign. In contrast, the RAF's 2nd TAF (including elements of the Air Defence of Britain which took part in the campaign) and the USAAF's 9th Air Force lost over 1,700 aircraft between them.

The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and 20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance. The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[Michael Kenny]

Quote:

"In the retreat to the Seine, large numbers of armoured vehicles were left behind and Typhoon pilots alone claimed 222 destroyed, but only thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined were found to have been knocked out by RP attack"

Which survey was this.

[Tony Williams]

Operational Research teams, which examined all vehicles left on the battlefield to determine how they had been destroyed.

Tony Williams

[Michael Kenny]

Tony I know about the ORU Reports its just that off-hand I dont remember one that had the high figure you posted

"but only thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined "

And:

"One source estimates that probably no more than about 100 tanks were lost due to hits from air weapons during the entire Normandy campaign"

Almost certainly the lowest 'estimate'. Heavy bombing alone destroyed about 15-20 in one raid and there were other raids.

[Tony Williams]

The first figure comes from Gooderson's 'Air Power at the Battlefront' (pg 119) - the standard work on this subject. Gooderson made considerable use of the OR stats.

The second was from an internet history site which I judged from the content to be reasonably serious and reliable.

Tony Williams

[brustcan]

Came across an interesting statistic in a book called "Encyclopedia of
Aircraft" When the Americans trapped what remained of 16 German Divisions near Falaise, France, the RAF Hawker Typhoons were called in.
In one day alone the rocket firing Typhoons destroyed 137 German tanks.
I have to question the number of tanks "claimed" destroyed, from actual.
The rockets on the Typhoons were highly inaccurate. They worked great
against infantry, horse drawn transport, and soft skinned vehicles, tanks
were another matter. I did read a story once, that American personal went
over the entire Falaise pocket, recording how effective aircraft were against tanks(this was also done after the Battle of the Bulge). If I remember right, the majority of German tanks were destroyed by artillery.
Does anyone have any more information on this subject?

I just
want to apologize to the members, as I forgot to enter an important
part of the original question...Hawker Typhoon overated-against the
Henschel 129? thanks brustcan.

[brustcan]

From: 'Flying Guns - World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45' - details on my website :)

"The evidence gathered by the OR teams indicated that very few tanks were destroyed by air attack. A British War Office analysis of 223 Panther tanks destroyed in 1944 revealed that only fourteen resulted from air attack (eleven to RPs and three to aircraft cannon). During the Mortain battle of 7-10 August, the RAF and USAAF launched sustained attacks on a German armoured column over a period of six hours, claiming 252 German tanks destroyed or damaged in nearly 500 sorties. It was subsequently discovered that there had only been a total of 177 tanks or tank destroyers deployed by the Germans and just 46 of those were lost, of which only nine could be attributed to air attack (seven to RPs and two to bombs). During the German retreat from the Falaise pocket later in August, the RAF and USAAF claimed 391 armoured vehicles destroyed. Shortly afterwards, the battlefield was examined and only 133 armoured vehicles of all types were found, of which just 33 had been the victim of any sort of air attack. In the retreat to the Seine, large numbers of armoured vehicles were left behind and Typhoon pilots alone claimed 222 destroyed, but only thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined were found to have been knocked out by RP attack. In the Ardennes salient, just seven out of 101 knocked-out AFVs were definitely or possibly attributed to air attack, compared with claims for 90. It should be noted that in the prevailing circumstances of a continuing retreat, there was no question of the German Army having recovered any damaged tanks in these later actions, in fact the battlefields were often littered with undamaged tanks abandoned by their crews.

One source estimates that probably no more than about 100 tanks were lost due to hits from air weapons during the entire Normandy campaign. In contrast, the RAF's 2nd TAF (including elements of the Air Defence of Britain which took part in the campaign) and the USAAF's 9th Air Force lost over 1,700 aircraft between them.

The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and 20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance. The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Excellent information, TONY! Please note I added to my original
question, information I left out...should have read, "Hawker Typhoon over
rated?- against the Henschel 129. The Henschel 129 was designed for one
purpose only...to hunt tanks. Despite it not being a great aircraft such as
the Typhoon, out of the two, in my opinion, it did it's job better. Thanks
brustcan

[brustcan]

Quote:

"In the retreat to the Seine, large numbers of armoured vehicles were left behind and Typhoon pilots alone claimed 222 destroyed, but only thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined were found to have been knocked out by RP attack"

Which survey was this.

Michael...since the number of tanks
destroyed by aircraft(Hawker Typhoons) was not as high as claimed,
does this mean, that the German Tank Ace Michael Whitmann was not
killed by Hawker Typhoons as claimed? or was this the way the Germans
wanted it to be, that their hero was killed by plane....not by an Allied
tank? thanks brustcan

[Michael Kenny]

There are a number of threads on nearly every forum that adress this issue but short answer..Wittmann was hit by a Sherman Firefly along with up to 5 other Tigers 8/8/44.

[Tony Williams]

Excellent information, TONY! Please note I added to my original question, information I left out...should have read, "Hawker Typhoon over rated?- against the Henschel 129. The Henschel 129 was designed for one purpose only...to hunt tanks. Despite it not being a great aircraft such as the Typhoon, out of the two, in my opinion, it did it's job better. Thanks brustcan

There can be no doubt that those version of the Hs 129 which were armed with a powerful cannon underneath (30+mm) were far better at the specific job of knocking out tanks than the Typhoon or P-47. They were also better protected against ground fire (although both of the Allied planes were very tough for fighters). The main problem is that the Hs 129 was helpless against enemy fighters, whereas the Typhoon and P-47 could look after themselves. Also, when used as bombers the Allied could IIRC carry much bigger loads.

Tony Williams

[varjag]

Its not so much that the Hawker Typoon was over-rated as the results of ground attack by all the airforces in WW2 was over-rated.

Hear, Hear!! Besides - flying combat missions behind a single specimen of what still today, rates as one of the most complex, difficult-to-service and temperamental aircraft engines to see series production, would not have helped.

[Christoph Awender]

A post by generalg was removed.

/Christoph