Usage of Axis arms by Allied troops

[gewehrdork]

V ; I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me about exactly. MANY soldiers of all combatant nations carried pistols , especially so of german and american forces. Captured pistols were utilized by american soldiers on a very large scale. I have personally known too many veterans to com to any other conclusion. One dear fellow George Decher USMC ( awarded silver star - okinawa ) carried a 45 pistol tied to his neck with a simple cord. He had told me it saved his arse on more than one occasion at night.Another USMC vet I consider dear friends whom is still alive carried a 45 pistol ( he also acquired it from some poor sod whom no longer had need of it ).It saved his bacon on two solid instances where an infiltrating japanese startled him - he reached out pistol in hand and ended the threat both times close up and very personal.
The noted author and WW2 USMC veteran officer William Manchester used a 45 pistol to kill a japanese sniper when he broke into the house the jap was shooting from and shot him close up .
I can recall a fairly well known pistol shot ( in army marksmanship circles then ) whom during WW2 in the pacific used his issue 45 pistol to pot japanese from a hillside during a battle in front of many marines.
I was good friends with a WW2 european theater veteran whom carried a captured P38 pistol and used it on two occasions. Once was to shoot a german whom stepped onto the road in front of him on a patrol , and secondly during the ardennes offensive to wound a german foraging for food he encountered in the 'woods' - whom he took prisoner.
I am also aware of a good many incidents where US troops being very unfamiliar with enemy weapons killed themselves or buddies with all manner of captured arms - that happened to all beligerants across the board. There are plenty of pics of germans toting belgian pistols , russina pistols and revolvers , Norwegain pistols , french pistols , austrian pistols etc etc. A high school friend of mine whose grandfather was in the luftwaffe flak artillery carried a 45 US1911 pistol in 1944 -45 that he took from a downed US airman. He tossed it in a ditch before he surrendered in vienna in 1945 to allied troops . I could go on and on , but that would be pointless.No matter how effective a particular cartidge and or pistol was they were looked upon as more than souvenirs by a good many fighting man of all fighting forces - in many wars , till this very day. My best friend in Iraq carries a "found" makarov ( confiscated from an Iraqi smuggler on the iranian border ).He won't be allowed to souvenir it , and has an M9 pistol issued to him as well as an A2 w/203. So to him the makarov 9x18 is a decent 'hideaway' carry peice if all else fails.

[tom!]

Hi.

US-Soldiers and japanese equipment:

The type 89 50 mm grenade launcher was called "knee mortar" by the GI´s because of the curved baseplate which fits to the thigh.

The first soldiers who used it this way got broken bones....

Yours

tom

[gewehrdork]

As well ; some US soldiers liked to carry the Type96 and type 99 LMG's , and to a smaller extent the type 38 6,5mm carbine. There is an excellent book out there titled "Shots Fired In Anger" , the authoer I forgot off the top of my head .But anyhow he recounts of some of his troops using these weapons..much to his consternation.

[James Patrick]

When the supply crisis in ETO was at its peak, the US 79th Field Artillery Battalion (Provisional) was equipped entirely with German artillery pieces and ammunition. The US 244th Field Artillery Battalion was temporarily equipped with captured German 88mm guns and 105mm and 155mm howitzers.

[Harri]

standard issue for the Italians was the Beretta M.1934 in caliber .380 or 9mm Corto

we had those also - (or was it 7.65 variant ??)

I think our Beretta m/34s obtained by Home Troops Staff (Civil Guard) together with other authorities in 1943 were for 9 mm Browning cartridges. We had only about 560 Beretta pistols m/34. Our Beretta m/15, m/19 (together about 1.500 pcs obtained in 1940) and m/35 (about 3.090 pcs obtained between 1941 and 1942) used 7.65 Br.

These later models m/34 and m/35 have been used until these days for example by Finnish Mail, State Railways, Customs and Prison Service.

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About arms used by Allied Forces: Soviets used captured German Focke-Wulf FW 190D fighters during the later phases of WW II. At least one squadron (or was it regiment?) was entirely equipped with these.

[Patrice]

Hello.
I found this picture today on http://news.mod.uk
At UK Defence today.
2 captured german sdkfz 222 armoured cars in service with a RAF Regiment Squadron in the Middle East in WW2.
Patrice

[Robert Hurst]

Hi

I came across the following pics of Allied troops using captured Axis Military equipment, which I thought would be of interest.

The pics were taken from A Photo History of Tanks In Two World Wars, by George Forty.

Regards

Bob

[THECLASH]

My grandfather served in the 739th Field Artillery Battalion and fought in France from August 31 - October 27, 1944. On October 14, four 155mm French Schneider Howitzers ()
were attached to the 739th FABN.

"These weapons had been caputered by the Germans in 1940 and recaptured by the Americans in their drive across France. The firing mechanisms were badly worn and some parts missing. The carriage wheels were of the horse drawn variety and the weapons were extremely hard to maneuver.... Missfires were frequent. One howitzer would fire only on the twenty-fifth pull of the lanyard." - 739th FABN book.

My grandfather told me that the cannoneers had to duck after firing the Butner Battery because the firing mechanism would come flying at them afterwards from the breech.

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

This gun is the 155mm L Mle1917 Schneider (different from the 155mm short Schneider gun).


Canon de 155mm L (L/32) Mle1917 Schneider
Type : field gun
Caliber : 155mm
Weight in action : 8800 kg
Elevation : 1° to +43°
Traverse : 6°
Ready to fire in 20 minutes
ROF : 2-5 rpm
HE Shell
Max. Range : 17000 m
Shell weight : 43.7 kg
V° : 561 m.s-1
This gun was used by the Germans under the name 15.5cm K 416(f).

--------------


Canon de 155mm C (L/16) Mle1917 Schneider
Type : howitzer
Caliber : 155mm
Weight in action : 3300 kg
Elevation : 0° to +42°
Traverse : 6°
Ready to fire in 10 minutes
ROF : 2-3 rpm
HE Shell
Max. Range : 11900 m
Shell weight : 43 kg
V° : 450 m.s-1

It was a good gun, pretty light, shooting a 43 kg shell at a maximum range of some 11900 m - there were five different types of shells for this gun, including HE, shrapnel and smoke shells. The soundness of the design was soon proved by the fact the the Americans adapted it, to equip it's Expeditionary Army in Europe - their copies were called M1917 and M1918. It was still in both French and American service at the outset of the Second World War. (It was also used by a number of other countries, including Finland, who employed the piece with good effect during the Winter War and Poland). The last US M1918A3 version like the last French version used a modernized carriage with pneumatics.

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Other French guns/mortars that had an influence on US weaponery :


Canon de 75mm (L/36.3) Mle1897
Type : field gun
Crew : 6 men + 1 NCO
Caliber : 75mm
Weight in action : 1140 kg
Weight in travel : 1970 kg
Elevation : -10° to +18°
Traverse : 6°
Ready to fire in 5 minutes
ROF : up to 28 rpm (10 rpm in sustained fire)

Canon de 75mm (L/36.3) Mle1897/33 (used in AT role)
Type : field gun / AT gun
Crew : 6 men + 1 NCO
Caliber : 75mm
Weight in action : 1140 kg
Weight in travel : 1970 kg
Elevation : 0° to +37°
Traverse : 58°
Practical AT range : 600-800m
Ready to fire in 5 minutes
ROF : up to 28 rpm (10 rpm in sustained fire)

HE Shell:
Max. Range : 11100 m
Shell weight : 5.550 to 6.500 kg depending from different HE shells
V° : 575 m.s-1

This is the famous "75". Used by 18 countries including the US (until 1941), UK (1939-40 in small numbers), Poland, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Romania, Finland (48, 12 of which arrived in time for the Winter War), Lithuania and Spain. France had 4500 in service in June 1940, most of which ended in German hands as FK 97(f), 231(f) and 232(f) used for 2nd line troops and fortifications. The FK 97(f) has wheels and is the basic model. The modernized version (with tires) is called FK 231(f) in German service. The 7.5cm FeldKanone 232(f) is the 75mm Mle97/33 AT gun version. In 1942 the Germans converted 600 for anti-tank use (on the PaK 38 carriage) as the 7.5cm PaK97/38 for the Eastern front.

When the USA had to make a choice of field gun to equip its army in view of its participation in World War I, they took the best candidate available at the time: the French 75mm Model 1897. Pressed into service by the thousands, there were still many of them in 1941 and, like their French colleagues, their career continued during WW2.
There is some confusion among the US models of the 75. You must distinguish the gun itself from its carriage. In US designation system, the carriage had designation independent from the gun fitted upon it. The same carriage may be used for several guns and one gun be fitted on several different carriages. Basically, there were four type of 75mm field guns, according to the US terminology : the 75 modèle 1897 was the French gun, built in France and given to the US Army. The M1897 was the US exact copy, built in the USA, while the 75mm M1897A2 and the 75mm M1897 A4 were US redesigns, both built solely in the USA.
The carriages were initially designated with a name starting with "M1897" followed by a letter and a digit. Later, it became "M2A1", "M2A2", ... The carriages changed more than the gun itself in the inter-war period, the most conspicuous change being the replacement of wooden spoke wheels by pneumatic ones.
In 1940, the British bought a batch of those guns and assigned them to their home defense units. They were renamed "Ordnance QF 75mm Mark I" and declared obsolete on March 8, 1945.
The M1897A4 is almost the only variant still extant when the USA entered the war in 1941. Since the appearance of the 105mm howitzer, the 75mm field gun had become obsolete but the needs were such that it was sent overseas in the Pacific as well as in North Africa, where it fought until late 1942. They were used as field guns bot also for example on the 75mm Gun Motor Carriage M3 and 75mm Gun Motor Carriage M3A1 halftracks.



Canon de 155 mm GPF (L/38 ) (Grande Puissance FILLIOUX)
Type : field gun
Caliber : 155mm
Weight in action : 11200 kg
Elevation : 0° to +35°
Traverse : 60°
Ready to fire in 30 minutes
ROF : 2 rpm
HE Shell :
Max. Range : 18600 m
Shell weight : 43 kg
V° : 735 m.s-1

Canon de 155 mm GPFT (L/38 ) (Grande Puissance FILLIOUX – Touzard carriage)
Type : field gun
Caliber : 155mm
Weight in action : 12200 kg
Elevation : 0° to +39°
Traverse : 60°
ROF : 2 rpm
HE Shell :
Max. Range : 21000 m
Shell weight : 43 - 45 kg
V° : 735 m.s-1

The 155mm GPF was adopted by the US Army as the 155mm M1917/1918 and it is the direct ancestor of the 155mm gun M1 'Long Tom'. It was also the gun used to design the 155mm GMC M12 self propelled gun. The Germans used it under the name 15.5cm K418/419(f).
The Original 155mm GPF was rather slow to move generally about 8 km/h using Latil TAR or Latil TARH2 trucks in France in 1940. These guns were mostly present in the ALCA (artillerie lourde de corps d'armée = army corps heavy artillery) and in the general reserves with 352 guns mobilised in May 1940.
The 155mpm GPFT (Touzard carriage – version with 4 pneumatics) was one of the more modern French artillery piece in 1940 with the 105mm L Schneider Mle1936. This gun was towed at 25 km/h by the Laffly S35T truck. The GPFT was also used by the Germans, in the Afrika Korps for example.


Mortier de 60 mm Mle1935
The 60mm Mle1935 was one of the many products of the Edgar Brandt design bureau and it entered in French service in 1937. It became in the USA the 60mm M1 mortar (and from that the M2 and M19). The French had 4940 60mm Mle1935 mortars in service in 1940. The Chinese copied it as the Type 31 with a slightly shorter barrel. The Germans used it under the name 6cm Granatenwerfer 225(f).
Type : Light mortar
Caliber : 60.7mm
Barrel length : 724mm
Weight in action : 17.8kg
Elevation : 45° - 85°
Traverse : 5° - 12° (depends from the elevation)
ROF : 20 rpm
HE Shell :
Max. Range : 950m (heavy shell) to 1700m (light shell)
V° : 158 m/s
Shell weight : 1.3 kg (light shell) to 2.2kg (heavy shell)


Mortier Brandt de 81mm Mle1927/1931
The 81mm mortar produced by the French Brandt firm became a 'classic' design of its era and was copied or licence-built by almost every army in Europe and elsewhere (Austria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Finland, Germany - 8.14cm GrW 278(f) and 278/1(f) -, Italy - 81/14 modello 35 -, Japan - 81mm Type 3 -, Yugoslavia - 8.1cm MWM 31/38 Kragvjewac -, Netherlands, Poland - wz.31 -, USA - 81mm mortar M1 -, USSR - 82mm model 1936 -). It remains to this day the epitome of conventional mortar design. In 1940, the French had over 8000 in service in two main versions (L/15.6 and L/13.7).
Type : Medium mortar
Crew : 4 men + 1 NCO
Caliber : 81.4 mm
Barrel length : 1267.5mm
Weight in action : 59.7kg (20.7kg barrel, 18.5kg bipod, 20.5kg base plate)
Elevation : 45° - 85°
Traverse : 8° - 12° (depends from the elevation)
ROF : 18 rpm (30-35 rpm in intensive fire)
HE Shell :
Max. Range : 3120m (normal capacity 'FA' and 'A' shell) or 1200m (high capacity 'GC' shell)
'FA' or 'A' Shell weight : 3.310kg (0.400kg NX explosive) or 3.345kg (0.530kg tolite explosive)
'GC' Shell weight : 6.845kg (2kg tolite explosive) (other projectiles are 'FA', 'A' or 'GC' smoke shells and 0.850kg to 1kg signaling or illuminating shells, with or without parachute)
V° : 174 m/s

Canon de 37mm Mle1916 TR
Also used by the US troops in WW1 and beginning WW2. In German service it was known as the 3.7cm IG 152(f).
ROF : 15 rpm
Max Range : 2400 m

Regards,

David

[SubSonic]

Hi! Look at this an captured KT(Tiger II)

http://64.26.50.215/armorsite/tiger2.htm

[JonS]

During the later stages of the war in North Africa, the Roayl Artillery formed Mac Troop, which used captured German guns of various calibres.

Mac Troop(bottom of page)
more of Mac Tp
Still more, firing airburst this time

Kiwis using a couple of German 170mm cannons (page 500)

As to why, in the above cases I would guess it was because the guns were available and someone thought 'hey, this'll be fun!' There was no specific need to use them, such as existed at Tobruch.

Regards
Jon