Those wide-gauge railways planned for Russia?

[varjag]

Many of us have read about Hitlers pipe-dreams to build 'super-railways' into the eastern regions of The Nazi Empire. 'Two-storeyd' trains running on rails with a gauge of 5 or even 10 metres(?) were rumoured to have been planned. Is there any more facts about what such enormous trains would have looked like, what train-weights, axle-weights and bridge carrying capacities, not to mention rail-line dimensions - were required to turn Hitlers smoke into reality?

[MAX_theHitMan]

WOW...this is news to me.
I never knew he had in mind of making some sort of "super-train".
I know they were using all sorts of armoured trains and carriages armed with all sorts of weaponry for protection, but never heard of any super-trains...
I will have to investigate some more into this.

One bit of information I have gathered from some books and other sites on the subject of IIIReich railroads. Is that european trains were running on a different type of track, or should I say width?
When they invaded Russia they found that over there they were using a different type of track width.... But with some modifications to their train carriages they were able to compensate that problem for awhile. The III Reich also used alot of the captured trains used by the Ruskies to supply their troops. Also Polish and other countries trains/carriages were also used.
That is what I have known on this matter for the mean time. I will investigate into it, and I will come back to give you more details on this.

If you have some time and patience to translate and search through this site... http://www.hans-urban.org/html/loks_im_krieg.html you will find some interesting things about those armoured trains and weapons-carriages... but no super-trains

Cheers
MAX-theHitMan

[baldviking]

No, the gauge was not suposed to be 5 or 10 meters, but closer to 3 meters. I have posted the question back at the forum at NJK (http://www.njk.no/index_e.php) as I am traveling and have no books with me.

Two-story trains are quite common. You will see lot of them in Switzerland, both also in Finland and USA, if I am not totaly mistaken.

The normal gauge in Western Europe is 1435 mm. But as this link shows, many different gauges excist:

http://parovoz.com/spravka/gauges-e.html

Sovjet had a wider gauge than Western/Central Europe.

As for changing betwen track with different gauges you only have to change the boggies, as is done between France and Spain, and between Finland and Sweden (at Haparanda).

[Phil D.]

Actually, until now, I knew of just one example of this type of "wide-gauge" type train. In a map from "Atlas of the Second World War", it mentions a train with a route between Munich and Rostov. This was to be on a 4 meter wide track from what it mentions. But it is very interesting to hear of this in more detail.


Phil

[baldviking]

Yes, I have also seen that map (München-Rostov), but all of this was to take place after victory, so different plans did excist. (Along with plans on concrete ships and so on...)

I have read a serious discussion on what would be possible when it comes to widening the railway gauge, pro and cons et.c, based on Hitlers plans. This is what I am trying to remember where and when just now.

Edit

Six replies from NJK so far. The project should be described in a book called "Komfort am Schienen". Two-story luxury wagons, steam-turbin electrical locomotives.

[Johnny]

Many of us have read about Hitlers pipe-dreams to build 'super-railways' into the eastern regions of The Nazi Empire. 'Two-storeyd' trains running on rails with a gauge of 5 or even 10 metres(?) were rumoured to have been planned. Is there any more facts about what such enormous trains would have looked like, what train-weights, axle-weights and bridge carrying capacities, not to mention rail-line dimensions - were required to turn Hitlers smoke into reality?

yeah I think I read about it in "Hitler's table talk" (Hugh Trevor Roper) I would be surprised if there was any actual attempt of actual realization of these trains at such an early stage in the war ( I think he mentioned it somewhere in late 1941) and after Barbarossa went bad I don't think he had much time for other miniatures than the occational tank, wonder weapon or Linz model But then again you never know!

[baldviking]

Here are some drawings ->

Scroll down to Deutschland, 3000 mm

http://www.breitspurbahn.de/

And another book: Die Breitspurbahn" written by Anton Joachimsthaler, Herbig Verlag (ISBN 3-7766-1352-1).


Edit

Problems with linking to picture

[Johnny]

Nice pictures! I had imagined the trains a bit diffrently in my head. Are the pictures contemporary or have they been made after the war? I couldn't find any pictures of the "miracle of hamburg" that I saw pictures of at the museum of transport in Nürnberg, do you know where I could find any bald?

Regards
/J

[varjag]

Here are some drawings ->

Scroll down to Deutschland, 3000 mm

http://www.breitspurbahn.de/



And another book: Die Breitspurbahn" written by Anton Joachimsthaler, Herbig Verlag (ISBN 3-7766-1352-1).

Thank you very much for the link Baldviking, WOW - some trains eh? So the gauge was 3000 mm's after all. But noted that some crackpot at Zeppelins was thinking another with 9000 mm's....he wasn't wrong about 'Zeppelins on Rails'. I think I will have to get that book, Varjag

[MAX_theHitMan]

Excellente find my friend. 8)

That would have been a terrific "Super-Train".

It even had a movie theater in it and everything!! Fantastic machine for the new reich if lastest it´s supposed 1000 years


Many thanks

[baldviking]

I think the drawings are contemporary, as I have seen them several places. They do look inspired by late 30's high speed german steam locomotives, those capable of 160-200 km/h. Hitler also used one of those on some ocations, as most of you surely have seen in diferent news movies. (Filmzeitungen...? I do not know nor the proper english nor german word for it.)

Technologically I do not know. Steam turbines are of course much better than steam, but if the trains were big enough to support this technology I do not know, steam turbines beeing BIG. Both Switzerland, Sweden, USA (later abandoned...) and Germany itself were developing electrical railways at the same time. As for energy effiency and maintanance they were far superior.

[varjag]

I'm not a railway buff - but was curious to get an idea about what these - Hitlers mastodonts-on-rails would have looked like. And frankly - a bit disapponted that they settled for 3000mm's gauge (realistically), when I had read about 10 000 mm's gauge and visualised virtual supertankers on wheels rumbling through the orderly settled farmlets and well-painted hamlets of millions of retired SS-heroes east to the Urals.....capable of carrying anything including more millions of cheering KdF-tourists - and of course - the mail - On Time.

[taivaansusi]

Here are some pictures of the proposed wide-gauge pan-european rail:

http://www.taivaansusi.net/reich/images/kansi.jpg

http://www.taivaansusi.net/reich/images/abteil.jpg

http://www.taivaansusi.net/reich/images/speisewagen.jpg

[PanzerKavallerie]

Sorry for the probably silly question, but which would be the actual advantages of such large-gauge trains?

[Kim]

I guess the same reason that there are 747's. You can haul more stuff and people with fewer trips.
Cheers,
Kim