What is the true about this Seep Dietrich act?

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ihoyos
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What is the true about this Seep Dietrich act?

#1

Post by ihoyos » 21 May 2004, 21:20

I was reading a press note about modern dictatorships, and the author write some like almost at the end of the WW II, Gen Seep Dietrich don't obey orders of Hitler of Kill some SS officerss , and take severeal Iron Croos medals and send back to hitler in a toilet or W.C.
really thus happen? or is a fabula.

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Daniel L
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#2

Post by Daniel L » 21 May 2004, 22:59

Please try to write in proper English.

Best regards/ Daniel


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Georg_S
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#3

Post by Georg_S » 21 May 2004, 23:22

Hello,

I have also heard about that story (fairytale)
During the battle of Budapest, AH didn´t think that
the SS-Div who was there fighting didn´t do it
good enough, and the story says that he even said that they
was doing that because of Cowardness.
Then Sepp Dietrich had suggested that they should remove
all theor decorations and the "ärmelband" put it into
a nightbowl (potta in Swedish HELP!) and send it to Hitler-

Best reg.

Georg

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Daniel L
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#4

Post by Daniel L » 21 May 2004, 23:26

Georg wrote:(potta in Swedish HELP!)
Chamber pot. :)

Best regards/ Daniel

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Reich Ruin
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#5

Post by Reich Ruin » 22 May 2004, 03:16

Yes I can vouch for this story....although I don't remember anything about a pot. However Hitler did demand Sepp Deitrich to remove the armbands of all the Leibestandarte division including his own. The armband was a very important decoration of the entire Waffen SS. Even though it simply had Adolf Hitler's namesake scribed on it, it was given Deitrich waaay back in 1934 at the beginning of Nazi rule. Deitrich refused to do so and ignored the order. Many Leibestandarte troops lost there lives still wearing the amrband 'Adolf Hitler' . :|

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Marcus
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#6

Post by Marcus » 22 May 2004, 10:59

Reich Ruin,

Considering that this story is generally regarded as a myth (mentioned in some books, but a myth none the less), which hard facts do you have to back it up?

/Marcus

Jochen S.
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#7

Post by Jochen S. » 22 May 2004, 13:19

This story(sending decorations back in a chamber-pot) is exaclty what it is: "a story".
There was an order to remove the honorary titel 'AH' (Ärmelstreifen). Not only the LAH but every SS-Division in the 6.SS Panzerarmee had to remove their honorary armbands because Hitler wasn't satisfied with the way these divisions were performing. He even talked of 'neglect of bravery'!
Ofcourse Sepp Dietrich was very disappointed and ignored the order...
So this story is and will always be one of the popular myths of History.

Btw. many men already had taken of their armbands when they were being transported to Hungary after the Ardennesoperation had failed.
This as a deception-measure.

(Source: Opfergang für Deutschland - Die Leibstandarte in den letzten Kriegsmonaten, p.334/335/336 - Ralf Tiemann)

Jochen S.

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Kurt_Steiner
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#8

Post by Kurt_Steiner » 22 May 2004, 13:46

The only thing I've heard is about the armbands order, that Dietrich refused to follow. About the EK... well, no idea, but I suits to Dietrich's sense of humour (or lack of it :P)

Best regards

PS: Adolf wouldn't like that joke...

Rob - wssob2
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#9

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 22 May 2004, 22:49

You're all wrong. :| :P

As you all know, this legend usually has "Sepp" Dietrich, CO of the 6th SS Panzer Army, either sending or threatening to send Hitler a helmet/chamber pot full of medals from members of the LSSAH with a message "Kiss my Ass." This was supposedly in responce to a scathing message Hitler sent denouncing the W-SS troops of cowardice and incompetence and demanding they remove their honorary cuff titles from their uniforms.

The chamber pot aspect of the story is a myth. The origins of the chamber pot story come from the 1773 play Götz von Berlichingen by the famous German writer Goethe. In the play, the military hero and main character Götz von Berlichingen sends a chamber pot filled with medals to his political commander (who is either the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperor - I can't remember which) with the injunction to "kiss my ass" (which happens also to be a well-known and popular curse in Swabian dialect)

The real Götz von Berlichingen was a German knight and shady character who commanded a band of Landsknecht guerilllas during the German Peasants war of 1524-26.

During WWII, Götz von Berlichingen and several other historical notables from the Peasants War (Florian Geyer, von Frundsburg, Michael Gaßmair, etc.) were venerated as heros by the Nazis, which is the reason several W-SS divisions were named after them.

The fusion of the Goethe chamber pot story onto the Dietrich armband event is a tall tale that attempts to fuse a literary myth onto the SS commander.

The remove-armband order is a fact - sent to HQ 6th SS Panzer Army on March 27, 1945. Hitler was livid at the poor performance of the W-SS divisions during the "Spring Awakening" offensive in Hungary and demanded they remove their honorary arm bans as punishment for their dismal performance.

This incident is covered on p 168-170 of Hitler's Gladiator Charles Messenger's biography of Dietrich, and also in Perry Pierik's Hungary 1944-45: The Forgotten Tragedy

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#10

Post by varjag » 23 May 2004, 13:04

Thanks Rob for that clarification. I've always wondered about that chamberpot, stuffed with arm-cuffs, - arriving at the Reichskanzlei...by mail? courier? (a brave one) or a teletype advising the Phurer that they were available for collection near Lake Balaton....? But appreciate your clarification that Goethe was the inspiration for this grand gesture - which I did not know.
I think Hitlers order said that the 'performance of the troops was not equal to the demands of the situation' and can well believe that Obersepp that had seen his charges bleed and die for years - did blow his top and in some way or other resurrected Götz's defiant gesture. At that stage of the war - quite justified. Can we probe deeper into what action Sepp Dietrich actually took?

Mark V.
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#11

Post by Mark V. » 23 May 2004, 18:21

Can we probe deeper into what action Sepp Dietrich actually took?
It pretty much happened the way Jochen, Rob wrote. For even more detailed description here's Georg Maier's account of this incident (Georg Maier was 6.(SS)-Pz.Army's Ia - first general staff officer - and is author of the book: Drama between Budapest and Vienna):

On 27 April 1945 at 05.00, 6.(SS)-Pz.Armee headquarters received the telegram from Berlin, ordering the army to remove its armbands. SS-Ostubaf. Georg Maier was at 04.00 starting his morning shift as Army’s 1st general staff officer, preparing reports and various orders, which had to be ready when Sepp woke up at around 05.00. Ordonanz officer presented Maier with the telegram. He couldn’t believe his eyes when he read the short text. Filled with anger and indignation he tried to calm down and to decide what to do next, should he wake up Chief of Staff SS-Brigf. Kraemer or Dietrich’s Adjutant Stubaf. Weiser. At that moment Sepp entered the room, Meier reported to him, gave him the morning reports and the order. Sepp read the order. Visibly shaken he moved to the map table and bent over it. It took him some time to rally again. After a long pause still bent over the maps he said in an unusual quiet and broken tone which just showed his deepest disappointment and anger: "This is the thanks for everything". Then he finally stood up looked him with his moist eyes and continued: "This will be kept on". He was still shaking his head as he couldn’t belive what has just happened and asked Maier what to do. Maier recommended asking the Führerhauptquartier if they also have to remove the armbands of thousands of brave Waffen-SS soldiers who died between Danube and Balaton Lake. While understanding Maier’s disappointment, Dietrich ordered him to inform Kraemer but not to pass the message to Corps. He then shook his hand with Maier and still shaken left for the front to visit his troops, like he did every morning.

At 08.00 Kraemer appeared and was no less disappointed and angry when he read the message. Together with Maier he removed his Leibstandarte armband (and Maier his of Das Reich).

And that's about it, since the order wasn't pass down to the divisions the order had no effect on the situation on the battlefield. Some units still managed to find about it and were needless to say very disappointed but continued to fight till the end.

As for the reasons for the order, they were mainly in various negative reports sent to the OKH by some Army commanders, who tried to lay all the blame for their failures in Hungary on the Waffen-SS.

cheers

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#12

Post by sheriff » 03 Jun 2004, 21:57

Rob - WSSOB wrote:You're all wrong. :| :P


The chamber pot aspect of the story is a myth. The origins of the chamber pot story come from the 1773 play Götz von Berlichingen by the famous German writer Goethe. In the play, the military hero and main character Götz von Berlichingen sends a chamber pot filled with medals to his political commander (who is either the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperor - I can't remember which) with the injunction to "kiss my ass" (which happens also to be a well-known and popular curse in Swabian dialect)

The real Götz von Berlichingen was a German knight and shady character who commanded a band of Landsknecht guerilllas during the German Peasants war of 1524-26.

During WWII, Götz von Berlichingen and several other historical notables from the Peasants War (Florian Geyer, von Frundsburg, Michael Gaßmair, etc.) were venerated as heros by the Nazis, which is the reason several W-SS divisions were named after them.

1944-45: The Forgotten Tragedy[/i]
I cannot comment on the Dietrich Chamberpot myth, but the quote out of "Goetz von Berlichingen mit der eisernen Hand" as such is false.

In the play, Goetz is suspected to be a "Raubritter", an armed robber, and is besieged in his fortress by imperial troops. When he is ordered to surrender by the imperial envoy, he replies:
Vor Ihro Kaiserliche Majestät hab ich, wie immer, schuldigen Respekt. Er aber, sag's ihm, er kann mich [im (!) Arsch lecken!
Translation:
I have For His Imperial Majesty, as always, his due respect, but he (the imperial general), say that to him, he can lick me in my ass.

I remember reading once, that in one divisional headquarter, the officers actually wanted to collect all medals and have them sent back, but right now I cannot remember the title of the book.

sheriff
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#13

Post by sheriff » 03 Jun 2004, 21:58

Rob - WSSOB wrote:You're all wrong. :| :P


The chamber pot aspect of the story is a myth. The origins of the chamber pot story come from the 1773 play Götz von Berlichingen by the famous German writer Goethe. In the play, the military hero and main character Götz von Berlichingen sends a chamber pot filled with medals to his political commander (who is either the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperor - I can't remember which) with the injunction to "kiss my ass" (which happens also to be a well-known and popular curse in Swabian dialect)

The real Götz von Berlichingen was a German knight and shady character who commanded a band of Landsknecht guerilllas during the German Peasants war of 1524-26.

During WWII, Götz von Berlichingen and several other historical notables from the Peasants War (Florian Geyer, von Frundsburg, Michael Gaßmair, etc.) were venerated as heros by the Nazis, which is the reason several W-SS divisions were named after them.

1944-45: The Forgotten Tragedy[/i]
I cannot comment on the Dietrich Chamberpot myth, but the quote out of "Goetz von Berlichingen mit der eisernen Hand" as such is false.

In the play, Goetz is suspected to be a "Raubritter", an armed robber, and is besieged in his fortress by imperial troops. When he is ordered to surrender by the imperial envoy, he replies:
Vor Ihro Kaiserliche Majestät hab ich, wie immer, schuldigen Respekt. Er aber, sag's ihm, er kann mich [im (!) Arsch lecken!
Translation:
I have For His Imperial Majesty, as always, his due respect, but he (the imperial general), say that to him, he can lick me in my ass.

I remember reading once, that in one divisional headquarter, the officers actually wanted to collect all medals and have them sent back, but right now I cannot remember the title of the book.

Rob - wssob2
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#14

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 04 Jun 2004, 12:39

I'm not an expert on Gothe's plays (I get enough "Sturm und Drang" on this forum)

from
http://germanyinworldwar2.com/generals.htm
Dietrich retaliated by gathering the armbands of many of the men along with their medals, placed them in a chamber pot and tied it with a ribbon which signifies in German culture that "You can kiss my backside" and sent the chamber pot to Hitler. 
You mentioned:
I cannot comment on the Dietrich Chamberpot myth, but the quote out of "Goetz von Berlichingen mit der eisernen Hand" as such is false.
My understanding is that the the "Kiss My Ass" phrase comes from Act 3, Scene 23 of the Goethe's play

an English translation of the play at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 89-4363124
In the play, Goetz is suspected to be a "Raubritter", an armed robber, and is besieged in his fortress by imperial troops. When he is ordered to surrender by the imperial envoy, he replies:
No he's not. The line in the play is
Who do you think you're talking to? Am I some robber? Tell your captain: I respect His Imperial Majesty as always, but as for your captain, tell him he can kiss my ass!
The envoy doesn't think GvB is a robber. Goethe's wrote the line "Am I some robber?" to express the characters indignation at the situation - a modern American English idiom could be "Who do you think you're talking to? Am I some kinda CHUMP?"

More Information on the play:

http://www.theatrehistory.com/german/goethe002.html

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Bio ... ang/1.html

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~knhaque/wwimessages.html
the allusion is to Goethe's play Götz von Berlichingen (1773); the title character utters the most famous curse in German literature: "Er... kann mich im Arsch lecken" (He can lick me in the ass)
Swabian into English site:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:T5 ... n&ie=UTF-8
look under "Arsch"

More about significance of the "Kiss My A**" phrase:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Johann ... von_Goethe

Here's some very good information about the play and the music:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/brian/sym2_goetz3.htm

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/brian/sym2_6.htm, which discussed how the main character of the play:
...he has been tricked; he is unable to control them, and is made the scapegoat for their crimes. The Emperor’s troops are called out, and he is wounded and imprisoned for treason. Twice betrayed by his childhood friend, judged a traitor by the Emperor he has served all his life, this noble and generous knight dies of a broken heart.
I think this last quote about the GvB play is the point the chamber pot/medals myth is trying to make - that the faithful W-SS were betrayed by Hitler and made a scapegoat for his crimes.

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