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Foo-Fighters Were German: The Evidence

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.

Foo-Fighters Were German: The Evidence

Postby ohrdruf on 22 May 2004 01:45

Attention is drawn to the thread on page 5/7 "Foo-fighters: Reality or Fiction" and in particular to the contribution of MAX the HIT MAN on 19 April 2004.

INTRODUCTION

I begin with a quote: "Once the possibilities have been eliminated, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (Arthur Conan Doyle; Agatha Christie).

The earlier thread made no mention of the rich vein of declassified material respecting "foo-fighters". Very many reports have been released by the US and British archives. For the most part they all have the same failing: they have been heavily censored. If we were dealing here with a natural phenomenon such as Weather Plasma, these reports would not have required the savage deletions to which they have been subjected.

A deletion in an official document is made to protect the issuing authority in some way. It may be an agent´s name: it may be something underhand that was done: it may be information respecting a weapon which the authority does not wish to be made public.

Let us take an example. Both the US and British authorities are agreed in their published summaries regarding the "foo-fighter" phenomenon that the objects were "invulnerable". No method could be found to shoot one down. If they knew that, somebody at some stage had to have made the attempt to do so. We search in vain through hundreds of documents with their extensive deletions to discover the answer to a single interesting question: When a "foo-fighter" was fired upon by an aircraft´s cannons, what happened to the bullets? I mean, did they seem to go straight through the thing, or were they rebounded or deflected by some kind of force field?

We are not told, and we are not told because it is something not in the public interest for us to know. Thus we are entitled to suspect that we are on the threshold to the greatest aeronautical mystery EVER.

MY CREDO
I believe:
(i) German scientists developed an anti-aircraft device which remains top secret because it had one singular property unknown to modern Western science.

(ii) German scientists postwar built full scale crewed aircraft at clandestine locations and these aircraft shared the singular property of the foo-fighter unknown to modern science.

(iii) All flying discs and other alleged German UFOs were hoaxes made primarily to disguise (i) and (ii) above,


WHAT WAS A "FOO FIGHTER"
A foo-fighter was a luminous rounded flying object observed and reported by hundreds of Allied aircrew between September 1943 and March 1945 over the Rhine. A lesser number of reports were filed by crews overflying Japanese controlled territory.

302 sightings were made by 140 crews of US XXI Bomber Command alone. (NARA Intelligence Publications, Air Int Report Volume 1, No 8, 26,IV.1945) and we may take these as a cross-section sample of the whole.

A large percentage of the sightings lasted only 2 to 3 minutes, but some continued for up to 15 minutes.

The "fireballs" were mostly described as around "six inches in diameter", "the size of a soccer ball", "about the size of a basketball". The colour of the illumination was described as a very strong white, although reds, yellows and ambers are also mentioned.

They were invulnerable and could not be shot down or damaged. They could not be picked up on radar. They emitted an electro-magnertic field which damaged aircraft radars. They also emitted great heat, and some aircraft reported scorch damage to the fuselage.

Fireballs approached Allied aircraft from the ground upwards. Between one and three fireballs would then take station about five metres from a wingtip. They were comfortable at 200 knots, but could be evaded at high speeds They seemed able to make up the lost distance if they had the opportunity after falling behind.

On a few occasions, foo-fighters appeared to be launched by German fighters.


REPORTS OF SPECIAL SIGNIFICANCE
Occasionally Allied aircrew reported that the objects fell out of control and were observed to crash and explode on the ground. This would confirm that they were material creations of human technology.

One RAF pilot and navigator, and one USAF air gunner, reported that a fireball transformed suddenly into a small aircraft "with a navigation lamp burning on the left wingtip".

These aberrations lead us to suspect that the "foo-fighters" were a German aerial device with a singular propensity.


THE SEARCH
The search now widens in pursuit of a German model aircraft. Dr Renato Vesco was an Italian scientist who worked on secret weapons projects at Lake Garda. In his book "Intercept But Don´t Shoot" (Grove Press, 1971) he described a German remote-controlled anti-aircraft device with a homing facility. It was known as KUGELBLITZ. This word means "ball-lightning" which is a plasmoid.

Vesco never saw a KUGELBLITZ for himself, but it was common talk amongst his scientific colleagues at Lake Garda. In his book he tries to work out how the thing worked. We need not go here into what he said, but one thing in his account we will find useful. Since an anti-aircraft device just goes up and explodes, he could not understand why the KUGELBLITZ needed a dual propulsion system. There was a hydrogen peroxide engine, and then there was an ion-mercury plasma engine, and for the life of him he didn´t know what the second one was for.


THE KUGELBLITZ IN ALLIED ARCHIVES
Was there a German anti-aircraft device known as KUGELBLITZ? Yes. There are two known declassified documents which describe the machine.

The British report appears in the BIOS intelligence publications. From this, we know that the KUGELBLITZ was an anti-aircraft device, had a hydrogen peroxide system. So, what of its speed, rate of climb, warhead, range, hull form? Mind your own business.

The American report was obtained recently under the Freedom of Information Act. The few patches not blacked out tell us that the KUGELBLITZ was an anti-aircraft weapon due to enter service in March 1945. For the remainder, see above.


Contributor MAX the HIT MAN thought foo-fighters were Weather Plasma. Actually this is quite a good guess. So, were the Germans working on an ion mercury plasma?


THE HIGHEST OF ALL NAZI PROJECTS
The highest known priority for any project in the Third Reich was "KRIEGSENTSCHEIDEND" - decisive for the war. Only one single project was awarded this category under the protocol of 21.7.1942., the AEG electrical giant´s project CHARITE ANLAGE. Directed by Dr Richard Craemer, it involved the use of tremendous voltages in a Plasma Physics project "which will last until at least the end of the war." It is known that this project involved spinning containers of mercury at fantastic speeds within a ceramic bell-shaped object.

Another scientist, Kurt Debus, elaborated the theory known as SEPARATION OF MAGNETIC FIELDS.
(See certificates issued 22 April 1943 and other documents in: NARA/RG Foreign Scientist Case Files K Debus, Box 28, US NAT Archive, College Park.)


HOW WOULD IT HAVE WORKED?
The foo-fighters were creations of German technology and were remote-controlled from German occupied territory.
It is generally known in Germany that the aircraft had a tortoise shape and probably resembled a midget Me 163.
At some point in its ascent the hydrogen peroxide engine cut out and the ion mercury plasma engine cut in and the craft moved into another magnetic field where, as we have seen, it lost its distinctive aircraft shape and became a fireball to the human eye. In Magnetic Field II it was invulnerable. It then homed calm as you like onto an Allied aircraft but did nothing.

The point was of course, that the craft was invulnerable in Magnetic Field II, but it worked both ways, and Allied aircraft were invulnerable to IT. In all probability, German scientists had not figured out at that stage how to get the foo-fighter out of Magnetic Field II into Magnetic Field I at altitude where it could explode alongside the Allied aircraft.
If this could have been achieved, the Reich would have regained air supremacy, for this was an anti-aircraft weapon with at least a 100% success rate - it would have exploded five metres from the aircraft fuselage giving the B-29 or Lancaster no chance or survival whatever.
It was a jolly good idea, but where those clever SS scientists at Wiener Neustadt got the technology maybe we shall never know.


CONCLUSION
If anybody has followed me this far, I will provide him next with evidence for Part (ii) of MY CREDO.
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Postby MAX_theHitMan on 22 May 2004 02:09

Most interesting researching my friend. 8)
I have read what you say , and I am following you on this.

I have been interested in anything that has to do with "exotic propulsion" systems for along time now. I have done alot of research on the subject of a few incredible aircraft too.

One thing a person must keep in mind "all the time" when making searches for the "truth" is... that you will be given alot of lies on the way. Many wild and absurd stories have been written and believed by people who do not research the facts more throughroly.

There are many people that do not want you to know what is really going on.
Some have posted a tag on this thing as a "government conspiracy"
…And its true in a certain way.
Most governments will not talk about, or show you, anything exotic they have in some secret aircraft base...because then it would not be such a secret anymore. Success on the battlefield depends on TOP-Secrets. (Look at the case of the B-2 bomber and the F-117 aircraft. They have been flying around since the late 70´s and everyone only found out during the first Gulf War.)

The same thing happened during World War II. Both sides had to keep Top-secret projects a secret, otherwise the other side would have thought up a way of eliminating this threat.

WWII is the time when the government cover-ups really began and both the US and UK governments were involved in separate studies of the foo-fighter phenomenon.

The case of the so-called "Foo fighters", it is intriguing, but also involved in so much secrecy that people have written alot of books on the subject, without having any "serious" proof to back up their findings or stories. All of this talking of "Foo fighters" when in reality only a few occasions did this happened to the pilots during the war. But it is also intriguing that this phenomenon also happened to both sides. German pilots as well as Allied pilot crews have been known to mention them.

So was it a secret weapon by the Germans or the Allies? Or even has some wackos have said" alien technology"?

First let’s rule out COMPLETELY this last idea. NO alíen tecnology. It´s just too absurd and silly. We are no Adamski followers from planet X from the dark side of Uranus(!) :P

Lets research this matter more down to the facts and separate the mad-stories from the logical.

First off, take into mind the written reports of people who have seen these phenomenon´s during the war years. They happened in both the European theatre of action as well as the Pacific.
So this kind of rules out the idea of it being a top secret III Reich gadget, don’t you think?
That is why I came to the conclusion of it being perhaps a strange Earth atmospheric phenomenon yet to be explained – which is what I have seen recently in a documentary on Discovery channel about electrical plasma and earth´s magnectic fields.

FACT: In the 1930's and 1940's, a comic strip called Smokey Stover seemed to have captured the publics imagination. Smokey, the brainchild of cartoonist Bill Holman, became a syndicated strip in 1935 and continued until Holman's death in 1973. Smokey Stover was a fireman whose boss was Chief Cash U. Nutt. His wife was Cookie and they had a son named Earl. Smokey drove around in a two-wheeled fire truck called the Foomobile, and he called himself a foo fighter rather than a firefighter. The word foo turned up often in the strip, in such places as on car tags and on menus. Holman claimed that he got the word from a Chinese figurine and that it meant "good luck", but he used foo in many contexts in which that meaning didn't fit. The French word for fire is feu, and that may somehow fit in as well. Holman used other nonsense phrases in the strip such as notary sojac and 1506 nix nix. Some people read the strip more for the oddball stuff in the background than for the main humor of the strip. The word foo caught on outside of the Holman strip, and was also used by other cartoon characters, including Daffy Duck :P

When U.S. pilots and sailors began seeing odd balls of light or shiny metal that could fly circles around their airplanes and which followed ships at sea, somebody started calling them “Foo Fighters”, and the name stuck. (!!)
Others called them “kraut fireballs” because it was thought that they were some sort of German secret weapon.
In reality, though, no one knew what they were.
Hitler thought they were a U.S. secret weapon, and set up an organization to study them. The British thought they were German and allegedly set up a group called the "Massey Project" to study them. Sometime in 1943 the British were the first to set up a special group to enquire into the question of these objects. The British set up a small organization to collect evidence. It was headed by Lieutenant General Massey and was inspired by reports from a spy who, in fact was a double agent operating under the orders of the Mayor of Cologne. He had confirmed that the "Foo-fighters" were not German devices, but that the Germans thought that they were Allied weapons which, of course, the British knew was not so. Later the U.S. 8th Army also scrutinized them, but once it was determined that they were not of German or Japanese origin, the studies were dropped. The Foo Fighters, however, kept appearing…here are some written examples

12 August 1942 – Pacific War - Tulagi, Solomon Islands
Sergeant Stephen J. Brickner of the 1st Paratroop Brigade, 1st Marine Division, U.S. Marine Corps, reported that air raid sirens went off, and he observed over 150 objects fly over in straight lines of 10 or 12 objects, one behind the other. No wings or tails were visible to Sergeant Brickner, and the objects seemed to "wobble" slightly as they flew over at a speed that was "a little faster than Jap planes." Sergeant Brickner said that their appearance was that of highly polished silver that shimmered brightly in the sun. He said, "All in all, it was the most awe-inspiring and yet frightening spectacle I have seen in my life."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
10 August 1944 – Pacific War - Palembang, Sumatra
Captain Alvah M. Reida of the 486th Bomb Group, 792nd Squadron, 20th Bomber Command, based at Kharagapur, India was on a mission from Ceylon to bomb Palembang, Sumatra, flying a B-29 Bomber at an altitude of 14,000 feet and an indicated airspeed of 210 mph. The right gunner and copilot reported a bright red or orange spherical object pacing the plane about 500 yards off the starboard wing. It was about 5 or 6 feet in diameter and seemed to vibrate constantly.
Captain Reida attempted evasive action, but the object followed every manoeuvre for about eight minutes, then suddenly made an abrupt 90 degree turn and accelerated away rapidly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
December 1942 – Europe
Royal Air Force pilot B.C. Lumsden observed two lights while flying a Hurricane interceptor over France.
Lumsden had taken off from England at seven p.m., heading for the French coast, using the Somme River as a navigation point. An hour later, while cruising at 7,000 feet over the mouth of the Somme, he discovered that he had company: two steadily climbing orange-colored lights, with one slightly above the other. He thought it might be tracer flak but discarded the idea when he saw how slowly the objects were moving. He did a full turn and saw the lights astern and to port but now they were larger and brighter. At 7,000 feet they stopped climbing and stayed level with Lumsden's Hurricane. The frightened pilot executed a full turn again, only to discover that the objects had hung behind him on the turn. Lumsden had no idea what he was seeing. All he knew was that he didn't like it. He nose-dived down to 4,000 feet and the lights followed his every manoeuvre, keeping their same relative position. Finally they descended about 1,000 feet below him until he levelled out, at which point they climbed again and resumed pursuit. The two lights seemed to maintain an even distance from each other and varied only slightly in relative height from time to time. One always remained a bit lower than the other.
At last, as Lumsden's speed reached 260 miles per hour, he was gradually able to outdistance the foos.
"I found it hard to make other members of the squadron believe me when I told my story," Lumsden said, "but the following night one of the squadron flight commanders in the same area had a similar experience with a green light."


All during 1944-45 Allied airmen over Germany encountered what B-17 pilot Charles Odom described as "crystal balls", clear, about the size of basketballs. They would approach to within 300 feet of the bomber formation, "then would seem to become magnetized to our formation and fly alongside... After a while, they would peel off like a plane and leave." Mostly they were seen at night but some airmen reported spotting them during daylight hours.

Over the Rhine Valley early November evening in 1944, Lt. Henry Giblin and his radar observer, Lt. Walter Cleary, sighted a "huge red light" 1,000 feet above them (they were flying at 1,000 feet). The object was moving at about 200 miles per hour. About the same time two other airmen encountered a "glowing red object" which shot up vertically, turned over, and plunged into a steep dive. The witnesses were sure the thing was under intelligent control.

Later that month, the Lincoln and Welland Regiment of the Canadian Army, stationed south of the Maas River, watched a star-like object cross the night sky toward the east. After 20 minutes is disappeared.
About eight or 10 bright orange lights startled the crew of an American aircraft connected with the 415th Night Fighter Squadron as the plane cruised the Rhine River area north of Strasbourg one November night. Curiously, the lights, which were moving across the sky at tremendous speed, did not show up on either ground or aircraft radar. The pilot, Lt. Ed Schlueter, banked into them expecting a dogfight, but much to his astonishment the objects completely disappeared, only to reappear seconds later. After five minutes the lights were gone.

According to Maj. William D. Leet, "My B-17 crew and I were kept company by a 'foo fighter,' a small amber disc, all the way from Klagenfurt, Austria, to the Adriatic Sea. This occurred on a 'lone wolf' mission at night, as I recall, in December 1944 in the 15th Air Force, 5th Wing, 2nd Bomb Group. The intelligence officer who debriefed us stated that it was a new German fighter but could not explain why it did not fire at us or, if it was reporting our heading, altitude, and airspeed, why we did not receive antiaircraft fire."

Some time in late 1944, a P-47 pilot west of Neustadt, Germany, saw "a gold-colored ball with a metallic finish" moving slowly through the air. The sun was low in the sky so the observer could not tell if the sun was reflecting off the object or if the object had its own light source. A "phosphorescent golden sphere" three to five feet in diameter was seen by another P-47 pilot in the area.
On December 22nd a pilot with the 415 Night Fighter Squadron encountered two "large orange glows" which climbed rapidly toward him as he flew over Hagenau, Germany, at six a.m. The radar operator also saw the strange objects.


The official explanation was that they were the effect of magnetic fields created across the wings of aircraft. But why none of these effects were observed in contact with the wings and were often seen far away from aircraft has never been explained.

Military censorship kept reports of these phenomena out of the newspapers until around December 1944. Throughout the war, similar objects were also sighted by both military and civilian observers in the United States. Which is strange, because this is supposed to be a “secret weapon” and which is supposed to be flying over in the European theatre of war.
But also strange is the Allied documentation on the matter during the war and even after it ended. Most it is still under lock and key.





Alright then, going by their (eyewitness) explanation of the "unknown lights" that they saw and simply labelling it "Foo fighter", they could have been a real man-made aircraft, or a natural earth phenomenon.

It could have been “Ball lightning” http://www.unmuseum.org/bizelec.htm
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/ballgtn.html
It could have been St.Elmo´s fire and strange lightning http://maps.unomaha.edu/Peake/3510/thunder.html
It could be “Diamond Dust” http://pao.cnmoc.navy.mil/Educate/zeus/ ... d_dust.htm
It could be Plasma phenomenom of some sort http://www.padrak.com/ine/ELEWIS2.html

Or it could be any sort of strange Atmospheric effects we still have to discover, just like I told you about the Sprites, Blue jets, blue starters, elves, sprite haloes, and trolls… http://geology.about.com/library/weekly/aa092400a.htm
http://geology.about.com/library/weekly/aa020198.htm

Ok , so you might say, well MAX the Earth atmosphere theory thing you have just posted does not make any sence.
Alright, I also agree with you on this.
So now we start looking into and for Allied forces, Japanese and as well as Germany´s Top secret projects being developed during the war years.

So far I personally have NOT found any such gadgets looking like the so-called “Foo fighters”. And I do have A LOT of information on some really amazing things being developed at the time.

BUT one thing I am certain, a lot of material was captured by the allies (American/British/French/Russian) forces when they overran the Axis top-secret hangars.
Could it be that “some” projects were completely hidden from public view, because they were so extraordinairy in their propulsion as to be a quick advancement for whomever would have it?
I believe it could have been done. So I say “sure”

One interesting fact: Most Top-Secret developments by the Axis forces captured by the USA were taken to certain airfields for further testing. Most of those airfields are located very close to each other. One of them is one that does not come on any known map… Area 51. Does this ring a bell in your head?
Perhaps it might, if you research some more.
I will help out by giving you some insight into some top-secret things you might not know about…

The Black Vault http://www.bvalphaserver.com/index.html (search this site good - they have great information and photos on WWII too)

Unreal aircraft http://unrealaircraft.com/ (just what it says... unreal but real)

Don´t believe everything this guy says… but investigate it http://www.rense.com/



I hope this information helps you some with YOUR researching
Cheers
MAX-theHitMan
Last edited by MAX_theHitMan on 22 May 2004 05:03, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Tony Williams on 22 May 2004 03:55

Oh boy, I love conspiracy theories :D Sadly, they rarely have even the slightest basis in reality.

After WW2, Germany was picked clean by the Allies; it was a race between the Russians, Americans, British and French to secure examples of the latest technology and, even more importantly, the best scientists. And the German scientists were generally extremely eager to get out of their wrecked country for a better life in the west. To achieve this, they talked up their new developments as much as possible. Werner von Braun, the rocket scientist, is a classic example. To suggest that the Germans could have developed some new weapon which has been kept a secret ever since is to live in cloud-cuckoo land.

And there was indeed a Kugleblitz AA system; it was also known as the Leichter Flakpanzer IV and was an armoured vehicle mounting two 30mm MK 103 cannon in a ball-shaped turret. It was good on paper, but was a flawed design which never got beyond the prototype stage.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
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Postby Kurt_Steiner on 22 May 2004 10:22

Excuse me for being a bit eskeptical, but all this issue sounds to me like fary tales.

Did the Allies found some proves of this? I suppose that if they did, they didn't say anything...

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Postby rcristi2271 on 22 May 2004 21:20

He he. Lets say that the so called Foo Fighters were indeed of german origin, why there are no reports of any Allied planes destroyed by those Foo Fighters? When you have such an "invincible" weapon you will used it no matter what, with 2 or 4 Foo's you can wipe out the whole RAF and USAF. Why the Germans didn't use this wunder weapon? because they didn't have it, period.

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Postby ohrdruf on 22 May 2004 22:43

To Max the Hit Man

The plasma was transported to Japan and the items were operated by German units there. That is why foo-fighters were reported in the Pacific theatre as well as over the Rhine. Having read the other replies I am surprised they were able to check my sources so quickly.

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Postby MAX_theHitMan on 23 May 2004 02:13

ohrdruf

To Max the Hit Man

The plasma was transported to Japan and the items were operated by German units there. That is why foo-fighters were reported in the Pacific theatre as well as over the Rhine. Having read the other replies I am surprised they were able to check my sources so quickly.


More "Foo´s" over Japan... http://www.444thbg.org/foofightersightings.htm

Yep, these suckers are everywhere! :P

You could be right as to your theory of them having been a III Reich "wonder-weapon" and they exchanged some prototypes with Japan during their submarine trade routes.
BUT why come up with a weapon that is completely armless to the allied fighter and bomber formations? ... Wasn´t the point in Defending the Reich from the Allied strategic Bombing raids to shoot down as many aircraft as possible?
From all the known reports, these "balls of light" just kind of followed the aircraft at a short distance and close to their wings, as if it had somekind of magnetic attraction to the metal in the planes. If they went down the "foos" followed... if they went up, the "foos" also went up...and so on.
I have a few photographs of these things in my files , but to really see them flying around aircraft is quite amazing.
If you have done some research on the subject, you will notice that the "foo-fighters" was a phenomenon that was also seen around aircraft years after the war had ended. I have some film footage of these "balls of lights" making circles around passenger-aircraft such as the Concord and on some military airplanes. I have seen footage of them also flying around in a very strange manner around military bases too. As far as I have seen, these films were not Hollywood-made. They were filmed by the average Joe with his portable camera who just happened to be at the right place and at the right time. Some "Foos" were filmed by two people but in different areas across town without knowing each other.
As far as I can notice (and from what I read in reports) these Lights are not harmful in any way. So I rule out the possibility of them being a secret-weapon.
That is why I tend to fall back on my idea of the atmospheric-magnetic-plasma theory even more. Believe me when I say that there is alot more to learn about our Earths weather than what we seem to know. New secrets are always being discovered. One of them is this strange plasma effect which give out a ball-light effect and slowly lifts itself up off the ground and starts flying around like a normal balloon. It´s quiet amazing some of the film-footage I have seen.

But either way I look at the strange "balls-of-Light"... there is still no logical explanation. Either atmospheric-weather-wonder, OR man-made aircraft... it´s still all a mystery.

I will keep up with my researches and "X-Files undercover work" ( :P HeHeHe) , and as soon as I find something new...

I will tell you.

----------------------------------------------------------

I know this government is hiding something secret 8O .
They just will not say why ?!

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article-8254--0-0.html

-----------------------------------------------------------
Cheers
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Postby Kurt_Steiner on 23 May 2004 08:26

BUT why come up with a weapon that is completely armless to the allied fighter and bomber formations? ... Wasn´t the point in Defending the Reich from the Allied strategic Bombing raids to shoot down as many aircraft as possible?


You could be right as to your theory of them having been a III Reich "wonder-weapon" and they exchanged some prototypes with Japan during their submarine trade routes.


Mmmmh... Perhaps the "wonder-weapon" weren't German-made, but Japanese... That could explain why the German didn't use them as offensive weapons against the allied planes... The instructions were in Japanese and the Germans couldn't read them! Oh same!

:P :wink:

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Postby ohrdruf on 23 May 2004 15:22

Dear Max

As I mentioned in the original article, to the last, SS scientists were working on a single problem: how to cancel whatever kept the object in Magnetic Field II, where it was harmless, so that it could return to Magnetic Field I and explode alongside an Allied aircraft. One keeps on battling for a solution to the very end. This object would have restored air supremacy over the Reich and German science persisted with it until the Rhine was overrun.

You cannot say a suspected weapon was not a weapon because it did no damage, or didn´t work.

There may be some truth in Kurt Steiner´s joking remark about the project emanating from Japan. Materials used in the plasma physics work and known to me in a certain formula came to Germany aboard a Japanese submarine in 1943. A correspondent in this forum made the statement in all innocence, and regarding this voyage I was ignorant. This sort of thing forms part of the quite large reservoir of information one accumulates when specializing in a particular topic.

As to statements about further observations postwar, it had been my intention to follow my initial article with archive material indicating US Government suspicions that German science continued its activities in this single area at least in 1946 and 1947, when the great UFO clampdown began. However, I think that, on the whole, the material ought to be held back.

I should make the point that in the original article, I quoted, so far as is possible, archive material released by various Governments, and I have the strung the thing together from there. That is the way in which poorly documented history is pieced together. If there was a fault in my deductions, I was hoping for somebody to indicate it but so far I have not been faulted on the academic work, which is reassuring.

The material I have used is considered "primary documentation" by academic historians. I have yet to find a single historian, or a single instance, in which a western Government forged a document for release through its national archive organisation. Governments withhold documents, or censor declassified documents. They do not falsify documents. The opinion of most contributors to this thread in recent hours is based on a gut feeling, and this one finds disappointing.
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Postby Gespenst on 24 May 2004 01:15

One key factor is, what prevented the supposed "foo fighters" from taking physical contact with the targeted plane? Surely it would have been able to make enormous damage to the airframe even without exploding, still in "magnetic field II" mode.

Is the reason some electromagnetic disturbance produced by the target itself? What is the source of that? Metal airframe in atmospheric electric field?
If the "foo fighter" was designed as a weapon, why not try to use it as one? Calculate intercept vector for a Mosquito and shoot? Or doesn't a Mosquito produce signature big enough for the device to aquire target?

If the devices have been reported crashing to the ground (presumably after coming out from magnetic field II mode), there must have still been some matter left to crash. Would it have been too difficult to install conventional explosives and something that somehow detects the loss of magnetic field (invulnerable, burning objects would be hard to handle on the ground, so the thing must run out of energy at some point) inside the device to detonate after the magnetic field goes down. Presume also that the field protects both inside-out and outside-in.

Sorry for being nosy like that, but there has to be some logic the presumed person(s) who who would have engineered such a device would have followed. If it is a weapon that shows promising results in tests, different approaches to using it effectively must be tried.
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Postby Tony Williams on 24 May 2004 05:05

ohrdruf wrote:The material I have used is considered "primary documentation" by academic historians. I have yet to find a single historian, or a single instance, in which a western Government forged a document for release through its national archive organisation. Governments withhold documents, or censor declassified documents. They do not falsify documents. The opinion of most contributors to this thread in recent hours is based on a gut feeling, and this one finds disappointing.


On the contrary, I am a historian of military technology and a published author, and I work on evidence, not gut feeling. And there is a truism which you should learn by heart:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

Your claims that the German (and/or Japanese) developed a secret weapon using technology STILL not known to science, and that this is STILL secret, are about as extraordinary as you can get. So they require an extremely high level of proof. Just saying that they are in 'government documents' is not good enough - I have studied many government documents, and they quite often contain mistakes and misunderstandings, especially when speculating about the enemy's military technology in time of war. Now if the documents included precise details of the weapon, including plans, photos etc, then I would look at them with interest. Do they?

So what do we have? A curious phenomenon reported by pilots which may be natural or artificial, but which there is no known way of reproducing artificially, and to which there is no reference in the accounts of the extensive debriefing of German weapon scientists which I have read. And a phenomenon which according to my understanding of your claims, has never been known to harm an aircraft.

I can see MASSIVE evidence against your extraordinary claims, and have so far seen no evidence on favour of them at all, let alone the kind of extraordinary proof required.

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Postby ohrdruf on 24 May 2004 15:21

Dear Tony Williams


Yes, I am a published author and have translated numerous military volumes from the German for a London publishing house.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof for general circulation. As an author you know this. But here we find ourselves in conversation within a limited forum intended so that we may air our views and be shot down in relative comfort if we err.

The problem regarding knowledge of high Nazi technologies known in theory only to modern science is that information simply cannot be released safely if it is known to be a weapon and cannot be reproduced.

You have read debriefings of German scientists, but I ask you to estimate how many scientists, especially those involved in the highest technology, eluded the dragnet and were never interrogated. In the event that it was decided to abandon 98& of German scientific knowledge to the Allies, and make every attempt to safeguard the remaining 2% for the Reich of tomorrow, you may be perfectly certain, so I believe, that all the scientists in the know, beginning with Dr Richard Craemer, and the sensitive documentation, would have been brought to a place of safety, and some of us have a pretty good idea to where EXACTLY.

I am aware from my research that historians, some of whom bow to the orders of their Governments - and I know that for a fact and can name names - deliberately avoid drawing attention to certain "sensitive areas" of wartime Germany, particularly at Ohrdruf and Espenkamp, and to postwar Argentina. I would like to hear your opinion on the latter three, and we can take it from there. If you prefer, come through on my private E-mail address.


I expect you know your way quite well through the English Language archives. Now here is a story about a researcher who, in the course of correspondence, received a very interesting, if not sensational SS document released in error by a Czech archive. Thrilled, the poor researcher mentioned his knowledge to a German publisher and - within an hour received a threat from gentlemen from separate intelligence services. The gentlemen were very fair. To defuse his interest they told him what the situation really is. They cautioned him that he could hint at it openly, and even explain it in detail to a bona fide researcher upon whom he could rely. But if he stepped beyond the boundary, woe betide him.


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Postby ohrdruf on 24 May 2004 15:32

Dear Gespenst

The single advance over other technologies was that the Germans had an anti-aircraft device which was in effect simply a normal flying machine of model aircraft size. The suggestion is that it was possible for the machine to develop around itself some kind of "envelope", or entered an adjacent magnetic field, within which it was invulnerable.

All enemy aerial machines in Magnetic Field I of our everyday of experience were invulnerable to the machine while it occupied Magnetic Field II. This is normal electro-gravitic theory.

The single problem which had to be overcome by SS scientists was to find a way to get their model aircraft with its cargo of explosive, or ramrod, or what have you, out of Magnetic Field II at altitude so that it could attack aircraft in Magnetic Field I.

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Postby Tony Williams on 24 May 2004 20:07

Sorry to have keep disagreeing with you Ohrdruf, but second or third-hand reports of documents seen and rumours repeated is very weak evidence, and does not even begin to approach the 'extraordinary proof' required.

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Postby Gespenst on 24 May 2004 22:39

ohrdruf wrote:All enemy aerial machines in Magnetic Field I of our everyday of experience were invulnerable to the machine while it occupied Magnetic Field II. This is normal electro-gravitic theory.

The single problem which had to be overcome by SS scientists was to find a way to get their model aircraft with its cargo of explosive, or ramrod, or what have you, out of Magnetic Field II at altitude so that it could attack aircraft in Magnetic Field I.


ohrdruf wrote:They were invulnerable and could not be shot down or damaged. They could not be picked up on radar. They emitted an electro-magnertic field which damaged aircraft radars. They also emitted great heat, and some aircraft reported scorch damage to the fuselage.


If you or someone is familiar with normal electro-gravitic theory (which I am not), it should be determined why the great heat emitted by the device could not be used as a mean of delivering damage to enemy aircraft. What could possibly prevent the device from getting close enough to set the on-board fuel to flame, or simply burn wings and control cables?

Oh, how does the propulsion work through an invulnerable field? Or does the device defy gravity all by itself?
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