German Air War in Poland 1939: War Crime?

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Reichskriegsgericht
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#1

Post by Reichskriegsgericht » 02 Jun 2004, 21:59

szopen wrote: If Nazis haven't started the expulsions and murdering milions of Poles, bombing Polish cities in 1939 (starting with Wielun, undefended city, bombed in morning 1939, where main target was hospital because of large red cross which was ideal target for Luftwaffe), then it would not be any expulsions.
who started expulsions - in 1939/40 and then through whole war hundreds of thousands of Poles were forced to leave their home and pushed to GG
I won't start getting involved in a discussion of who started expelling whom, since the Poles started expelling more than a million Germans from their homes after 1919 in Western Prussia, Province Posen and Upper Silesia. Also the Poles were pretty popular with almost all their neighbours after 1918, occupying as much land as they could grab from Lithuania, Ukraine, Bjelo Russia, Czechoslovakia and Germany using military force or starting a war.

These kind of discussions tend to end nowhere and are absolutely futile, since ( ad 1) a crime remains a crime regardless who started, and (ad 2) it is an infantile form of discours excusing the own crimes by pointing the finger to the other people shouting: "But you started!" You normally find this method of discours by people from countries occupied by the Germans during the war trying to excuse their own crimes. The german equivalent would be the right-wing germans who normally point out to the allied crimes and then shout: "See, they were bad boys too, therefore our few crimes are perfectly normal."

The Wielun story however stands for a correction since this town regularly comes up together with Warsaw, Rotterdam and Guernica when it comes to the question who started bombing undefended cities. Most of the contributors normally don't know anything about the legal facts and get everthing mixed up. I remember a letter in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, one of the largest german newspapers, a couple of months ago, blaming the Germans with starting bombing undefended cities with an attack on Wielun and not even writing about it.

The bombing of Wielun is already mentioned in the first edition of Cajus Bekker's "Angriffshöhe 4000" back in the Sixties with details regarding the attacking units and the polish cavalry units in and near the town. German reconnaissance planes detected the polish units and they were attacked by Stukas and bombers. Horst Boog, a famous specialist on air warfare, also handles the Wielun attack in his writings. There was no deliberate bombing of an undefended town yet alone a hospital. Considering the technical standard of bombing in the Thirties, it is no wonder civilian houses and facilities were hit, but this was not the purpose of the attack. Attacking Red Cross installations was strictly forbidden in the Luftwaffe regulations. Wielun was simply a town not that far from the front line, with troops in and around it and therefore a legitimate target for a bombing as for artillery fire.

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#2

Post by szopen » 04 Jun 2004, 10:00

I won't start getting involved in a discussion of who started expelling whom, since the Poles started expelling more than a million Germans from their homes after 1919 in Western Prussia, Province Posen and Upper Silesia.
Wrong. As you know, German citizens were ENCOURAGED by German government to leave Poland (it was believed, that without German doctors, clerks etc Poland would collapse) and they EMIGRATED. Second wave was when Germans were given choice: keep either Polish or German citizenship.

in 1900 in Posen area 697,265 spoke German, 1,047,409 spoke Polish as first language. Expelling million Germans, and leaving

BTW, Prussian government was expelling Poles from that areas (so called Rugi Pruskie) although on less scale, creating a law which virtually forbidden Poles built new houses or buy new land etc.

Anyway, i know this was a crime. But methods used by Poles during expulsion, with some notable exception, cannot be compared to methods used by Germans (We weren't for example kidnapping German children to see whether they had Slavic features). Poles apologised for that
in 1965 (Famous "we forgot and we ask for forgiveness").
Also the Poles were pretty popular with almost all their neighbours after 1918, occupying as much land as they could grab from Lithuania, Ukraine, Bjelo Russia, Czechoslovakia and Germany using military force or starting a war.
What war was started by Poles? Polish=soviet one was started by Soviets. Fought of Zaolzie was started by Czechs. War with Ukraine was started by both sides, sicne it was local populations which organised paramilitary units.
These kind of discussions tend to end nowhere and are absolutely futile, since ( ad 1) a crime remains a crime regardless who started, and (ad 2) it is an infantile form of discours excusing the own crimes by pointing the finger to the other people shouting: "But you started!"
No. It's like a accusing woman whom you raped, that she then beat you.
The bombing of Wielun is already mentioned in the first edition of Cajus Bekker's "Angriffshöhe 4000" back in the Sixties with details regarding the attacking units and the polish cavalry units in and near the town.
There was no Polish units in the town. Let me repeat that.
In September 1st there were no Polish units in town. The main target of the attack was HOSPITAL.
German reconnaissance planes detected the polish units and they were attacked by Stukas and bombers. Horst Boog, a famous specialist on air warfare, also handles the Wielun attack in his writings. There was no deliberate bombing of an undefended town yet alone a hospital.
And hospital and 70% of city buildings just collapsed out of being old, while 1200 (from total 16000) civilians were kidnapped by UFO. Note that bombing was at 4:30, before any reports were delivered to German HQ.

Wonder what that Boog has to say about 100+ other undefended Polish cities. Or about strafign Polish civilians on the roads.
Attacking Red Cross installations was strictly forbidden in the Luftwaffe regulations. Wielun was simply a town not that far from the front line, with troops in and around it and therefore a legitimate target for a bombing as for artillery fire.
THERE WAS NO TROOPS IN WIELUN (or for example in Sulejow, another bombed undefended city).

Bombing was at 4:43. Reports about cavalry in town appeared in German HQ about noon AFTER the bombing (I am not aware of any cavalry in neighbourhood of the Wielun, BTW -1 Pulk KOP of cavlary which stationed in Wielun was moved to line of Wieruszow-Ostrzeszow-Kepno day before), and anyway there were Polish units NEARBY, but not in the city. (Closest unit, 28th Infantry Division, was also moved to field positions before September the 1st).

Frankly, i don't know what about HQ, but still i believe that if there was HQ in Wielun, then it still does not justify destruction of 70% of city, including properly signed hospital.

Also, Luftwaffe quite regularly bombed hospitals in Polish campaign. The "regulations" of Luftwaffe was simply propaganda issue to show the world, that "we are behaving in civlising way" and was not kept by Luftwaffe (as bombing of just three examples from tens more: Wielun, Sulejow, Frampol - about Frampol i am sure there was no AA or any units at all - all undefended and all almost burned to the ground - witnesses tesitfies that Luftwaffe pilots were shooting to civilians in that cities - will show).


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#3

Post by tonyh » 04 Jun 2004, 12:58

You need to support your accusations that the Luftwaffe deliberately bombed Hospitals etc. Its simply not good enough just to say it because it suits your biased viewpoint.

Tony

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#4

Post by szopen » 04 Jun 2004, 13:35

tonyh wrote:You need to support your accusations that the Luftwaffe deliberately bombed Hospitals etc. Its simply not good enough just to say it because it suits your biased viewpoint.

Tony
Ecuse me, but the facts are:

1) Tens of Polish cities were bombed, which were totally undefended

2) In those cities hospitals, which had huge, red crosses easily seen from air, were totally destroyed

3) Those bombing were not accidental, but effects of few attacks by few bombers. Witnesses also are taling about bombers then strafing panicked civilians.

So should I care whether they choose that deliberately or not? Anyway, how can you not DELIBARETELY destroy a hospital? How one can accidentaly bomb large building with visible red crosses, and do that not by one bombers, but by few?!

Anyway, does really anyone doubt that Luftwaffe was behaving in criminal way in Poland? Or does anybody has any illusions that Luftwaffe was behaving in "chivalric" way? Surprisingly high number of people believes that it was allies who started bombing of civilians cites. Wonder why - maybe it's and effect of considering eastern and central part of Europe as inferior, or maybe because westrn scholars generally ignore(d) anything written by their collegues from Central and Eastern Europe?

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#5

Post by Fredd » 04 Jun 2004, 14:09

The very first day of the war they bombarded the Hospital in Wielun for instance (despite of large and easy recognizable red crosses on roof).

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#6

Post by szopen » 04 Jun 2004, 14:25

Links about Sulejow, Frampol, Wielun:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm
http://www.um.wielun.pl/referaty.html

some photos of Wielun after the bombing
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_010903_wrzesien39.html

Frampol is especially nice example of "chivalric" Luftwaffe.

There was also bombing of Garwolin, where only legitimate military goal were abandoned barracks outside the city, across the river.


Mniszkow, Jawor, Slawno, Gorzalkow ....

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#7

Post by Fredd » 04 Jun 2004, 14:35

On top of that gen Anders in his memoirs wrote about atacking columns of civilan refugees by LW.

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#8

Post by tonyh » 04 Jun 2004, 15:24

Not good enough. You're trying to say that the Luftwaffe tried to bomb hospitals etc because their personnel were "...behaving in criminal way". So far you haven't provided anything but some Polish websites and "eyewitness" stories from Polish airmen etc, who will obviously have an axe to grind, as you do yourself, it seems. All of which is highly dubious and contentious. It doesn't count as support to your claim.

It doesn't qualify as proof or either "unchivalrous" behavior on behalf of the Luftwaffe personnel or a deliberate attempt to bomb said hospital within a city, etc.

Plus, if one is to condemn the Luftwaffe for bombing such targets, then all the air forces involved in WWII must be tarred with that "unchivalrous" brush as all sides suffered damage to medical facilities during the war. But your probably not interested in doing that.

Tony

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#9

Post by tonyh » 04 Jun 2004, 15:47

Further, Many Polish city areas were actually quite well defended with AAA. The Luftwaffe used in total aprox. 2000 aircraft of all types. Of which about 300 were destroyed and a further 200 or so were heavilly damaged. The Polish airforce put up a great show and got around 90 or so claims. The rest were hit by ground defences. In fact the Luftwaffe lost about 40 aircraft to AAA in the first 6 days of the war. Quite a high attrition.

So stories from "Witnesses also are talking about bombers then strafing panicked civilians" is just that, "talk". No bomber pilot would risk dropping so low to strafe anything, never mind a civilain column of refugees. This is quite obviously a made up story.

Tony

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#10

Post by Fredd » 04 Jun 2004, 17:03

So you claim civilian column of refugees were protected by AAA :wink: Besides not only bombers attack such column - fighters did it more often - using MGs.

And you claim cases when a hospital was an aim of air raid were made up also? What proof can be presented a video?

BTW You wrote:
Plus, if one is to condemn the Luftwaffe for bombing such targets, then all the air forces involved in WWII must be tarred with that "unchivalrous" brush as all sides suffered damage to medical facilities during the war. But your probably not interested in doing that.
Excellent, let's sum up: LUFTWAFFE HAD THE RIGHT TO BOMB CIVILIAN TARGETS IN SEPTEMBER 1939 DUE THE FACT THAT IN NEXT YEARS GERMAN CITIES WERE ALSO TARGETS :lol:

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#11

Post by szopen » 04 Jun 2004, 17:40

tonyh wrote:Further, Many Polish city areas were actually quite well defended with AAA. The Luftwaffe used in total aprox. 2000 aircraft of all types. Of which about 300 were destroyed and a further 200 or so were heavilly damaged. The Polish airforce put up a great show and got around 90 or so claims. The rest were hit by ground defences. In fact the Luftwaffe lost about 40 aircraft to AAA in the first 6 days of the war. Quite a high attrition.

So stories from "Witnesses also are talking about bombers then strafing panicked civilians" is just that, "talk". No bomber pilot would risk dropping so low to strafe anything, never mind a civilain column of refugees. This is quite obviously a made up story.

Tony
What proof do you need, if you dismiss any witness testimonies outright?! Any Pole remembering his experiences during September campaign mentions Luftwaffe ilots strafing at Polish civilians on roads and fields.
Do you expect me to provide you official Hitler's order of "shoot peasants on fields and bomb hospital in Wielun"?

Anyway, these are not "some" websites. wielun.um.pl is official page by City of Wielun. ipn.gov.pl is Polish Official, state-sponsored institute for documenting crimes on Polish nation (by Soviets, Nazis and Poles).

Frampol was not defended by any AA, it was in September 13 and IIRC east of Vistula, with no Polish units in vicinity. Many Polish cities had AA, but not the smaller ones and definetely not the villages.

Anyway, I am quite surprised, tonyh. I thought it is common knowledge, that Hitler used Luftwaffe as terror weapon, to force Poles out of their homes and push them into roads, to made Polish army movement impossible (quite succesful, BTW).

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#12

Post by szopen » 04 Jun 2004, 17:43

Three waves IIRC of bombs, ten hours of bombing, resulting in 70% destruction of small city, including properly marked hospital.

How that could be result of MISTAKE? I could understand first few bombers, but not the horror lasting for hours and hours.

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#13

Post by tonyh » 04 Jun 2004, 18:26

Fredd wrote:So you claim civilian column of refugees were protected by AAA :wink: Besides not only bombers attack such column - fighters did it more often - using MGs.

And you claim cases when a hospital was an aim of air raid were made up also? What proof can be presented a video?

BTW You wrote:
Plus, if one is to condemn the Luftwaffe for bombing such targets, then all the air forces involved in WWII must be tarred with that "unchivalrous" brush as all sides suffered damage to medical facilities during the war. But your probably not interested in doing that.
Excellent, let's sum up: LUFTWAFFE HAD THE RIGHT TO BOMB CIVILIAN TARGETS IN SEPTEMBER 1939 DUE THE FACT THAT IN NEXT YEARS GERMAN CITIES WERE ALSO TARGETS :lol:
But thats the point. There is no proof, just allegation. There is no proof that German "bombers" strafed Polish civilians and frankly I doubt that any "bomber" pilot would risk such a stupid action. Bomber aircraft use height as a safety margin. Dropping so low to attack such targets is inviting the Polish pilots to shoot them down and as I have already pointed out the skys over Poland were far from a safe place for Luftwaffe aircrew. Now fighter and zerstorer aircraft strafing ground targets might make mor sense, but the exact quote is "Witnesses also are talking about bombers then strafing panicked civilians". But again, so what? Many civilians were strafed during the war, what makes the Poles so special? Or what makes such an action "unchivalrous" when a German pilot does it, but ok when a British or American pilot does it? Or is such an action "unchivalrous" for all Nations?

Also, we're not talking about rights here we're talking about war. "Rights" rarely have anything to do with that sadly.

Tony

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#14

Post by tonyh » 04 Jun 2004, 18:27

szopen wrote:
tonyh wrote:Further, Many Polish city areas were actually quite well defended with AAA. The Luftwaffe used in total aprox. 2000 aircraft of all types. Of which about 300 were destroyed and a further 200 or so were heavilly damaged. The Polish airforce put up a great show and got around 90 or so claims. The rest were hit by ground defences. In fact the Luftwaffe lost about 40 aircraft to AAA in the first 6 days of the war. Quite a high attrition.

So stories from "Witnesses also are talking about bombers then strafing panicked civilians" is just that, "talk". No bomber pilot would risk dropping so low to strafe anything, never mind a civilain column of refugees. This is quite obviously a made up story.

Tony
What proof do you need, if you dismiss any witness testimonies outright?! Any Pole remembering his experiences during September campaign mentions Luftwaffe ilots strafing at Polish civilians on roads and fields.
Do you expect me to provide you official Hitler's order of "shoot peasants on fields and bomb hospital in Wielun"?

Anyway, these are not "some" websites. wielun.um.pl is official page by City of Wielun. ipn.gov.pl is Polish Official, state-sponsored institute for documenting crimes on Polish nation (by Soviets, Nazis and Poles).

Frampol was not defended by any AA, it was in September 13 and IIRC east of Vistula, with no Polish units in vicinity. Many Polish cities had AA, but not the smaller ones and definetely not the villages.

Anyway, I am quite surprised, tonyh. I thought it is common knowledge, that Hitler used Luftwaffe as terror weapon, to force Poles out of their homes and push them into roads, to made Polish army movement impossible (quite succesful, BTW).
When theres an axe to grind, then yes, I do take such unsubstantiated stories with a pinch salt or are the Poles alone in being above embellishing such stories? And so far your allegations are just allegations. Another thing, Hitler used the Countries airforce as a weapon of war, just like every other Combatant in WWII.

Tony

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#15

Post by Musashi » 04 Jun 2004, 20:37

Reichskriegsgericht wrote:
szopen wrote: If Nazis haven't started the expulsions and murdering milions of Poles, bombing Polish cities in 1939 (starting with Wielun, undefended city, bombed in morning 1939, where main target was hospital because of large red cross which was ideal target for Luftwaffe), then it would not be any expulsions.
who started expulsions - in 1939/40 and then through whole war hundreds of thousands of Poles were forced to leave their home and pushed to GG
I won't start getting involved in a discussion of who started expelling whom, since the Poles started expelling more than a million Germans from their homes after 1919 in Western Prussia, Province Posen and Upper Silesia. Also the Poles were pretty popular with almost all their neighbours after 1918, occupying as much land as they could grab from Lithuania, Ukraine, Bjelo Russia, Czechoslovakia and Germany using military force or starting a war.
I agree about Lithuania and nothing besides. More than 80% of inhabitants of Vilnius were Polish before WW II and only 4% were Lithuanians. The rest were Belarussians and Jews. In spite of this fact Vilnius should have been the capital of the independent Lithuania, because it was so in the past. They have more rights to this city, than Poles. However Pilsudski was born in Vilnius and did not imagine Poland without it. It was a mistake.
About the rest of neighbours...
First what Ukraine and what Belarus? There were not such countries until 1991. So what do you mean?
As for Czechoslovakia... what her territory was occupied by Poles? Please explain me :lol: You should know Czechoslovakia took Zaolzie in 1919, the territory which was Polish for a few hundred of years and it was never Czech. It happened because Poland was in state of war with the Soviet Russia and Germany simulteanously and was unable to defend it. Without that Czechs could have only dream about seizing it 8)
As for Germany... I see you haven't history at school or have been taught a strange version of it. What German territories? Gee, man, don't you understand Prussia, Austria and Russia partitioned Poland at the end of XVIII century and Poland only tried to regain her territories after she became independent again? What are German rights to Poznañ province, Upper Silesia and SO CALLED West Prussia. Man, these territories have been Polish for more than 900 years and only 123 years were German. Have you been taught that at your school or somebody told you the bloodthirsty Poles had expelled Germans for fun?
Man, if somebody seized your country and behave there like in his own country, humilating and teasing you, what would you do if he lost the power? Wouldn't you want to kick his ass? Do not deny - its a real pleasure :D

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