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Battle between HSK Kormoran and HMAS Sydney

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Battle between HSK Kormoran and HMAS Sydney

Postby e.polis on 27 Jun 2004 00:40

G'day

Does anyone have knowledge of the battle between HSK Kormoran and HMAS Sydney in November 1941 that resulted in the sinking of both ships and total loss of 645 crew from the Sydney, 84 deaths and the remaining 320 odd crew from the Kormoran becoming POWs in Australia. This action occured off the West Australian coast and is still a mystery in Ausralia as to how the Cruiser Sydney was sunk by a armed merchant raider.
I know that there has been recent inquiries, a lot of media reporting and other web sites, but has anyone else have anything sensible to contribute.

Regards

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Postby varjag on 27 Jun 2004 04:54

This subject has been discussed on the forum before. Try a search on KORMORAN.
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Postby Anzac on 27 Jun 2004 06:28

Some random information on the sinking

The HMAS Sydney/HSK Kormoran engagement on 19 November 1941 resulted in the loss of 79 or 80 German seamen and the entire Sydney crew of 645 men and boys, coming from virtually every major town and city in Australia. It was a major blow to the Country as a whole in WWII and was an unexplained loss that many families had been unable to come to terms with, some expressing concerns decades after the event.


The possibility that HMAS Sydney was attempting to make the coast before it disappeared was considered a reasonable assumption and oil exploration records of the Shark Bay area were searched at the request of Michael Montgomery, leading to the finding of a very promising magnetic anomaly. A combined WA Maritime Museum/RAN team operating from HMAS Moresby analysed the anomaly in October 1981, resulting in the location of a geological formation lying c. 200 metres below the seabed off Kalbarri. A report was compiled and lodged in the public archives


The most grievous loss suffered by the Royal Australian Navy occurred on 19 November 1941, when the cruiser HMAS Sydney was lost in action with the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran off the Western Australian coast. None of the Sydney's complement of 645 men survived. The Kormoran was also sunk in the action.


The two ships met off the Western Australian coast in the afternoon of 19 November 1941. In the ensuing action the Kormoran's disguise was sufficient to entice the Sydney into close range where she was able to overwhelm her with gunfire and torpedoes. However, although mortally hit, the Sydney was able to fight back and ensure the raider's destruction before limping slowly away to her own fate and that of her crew.


For twelve days the government maintained the strictest secrecy, issuing 11 censorship notices preventing the publication of details. When the Prime Minister made the first of two public announcements on 1 December 1941 he did little more than confirm the widely circulating rumours that the Sydney had been sunk. For the public the shock of the loss was accompanied by bewilderment that such a disaster could occur. A suspicion that information was being concealed was strengthened by the delay in making the official announcement despite widespread public rumour, by the lack of any real explanation when the announcement did come, and by the secrecy which surrounded the official investigation of the disaster.


On about 28 June 2001 reports were announced that someone had located the wreckage of "HMAS Sydney" and possibly the "Kormoran" somewhere off Geraldton. A week earlier the Department of Defence announced they may have found the grave of a sailor from HMAS Sydney on Christmas Island


The following article was from Perth "ABC News Online" Home Page dated 1 July 2001:-

Dispute over location of watery grave

A Canberra researcher has questioned claims by a NSW team that they have found the final resting place of the Australian Navy cruiser HMAS Sydney, which sank off the West Australian coast in 1941.

The NSW study puts the wreck about 170 kilometres south-west of Geraldton at about 4.8 kilometres deep, it also claims to know the location of the wreck of the German ship Kormoran.

Former Canberra public servant Michael McGeorge has been investigating the issue with others over two years, including visits to Western Australia and interviews with eye witnesses to the battle.

Mr McGeorge says there is substantial evidence the wrecks are in another location, in much shallower water.

"I suggest that no matter what anybody thinks about where we know these wrecks are, that shallow water should be investigated before wasting time and money possibly, I'm not saying will be a waste but I think as a matter of course that logically that shallow water should be investigated and we're certain the wrecks are there," he said.


NAVY HAS GRAVE IN ITS SITES

The Royal Australian Navy believes the team it sent to Christmas Island may have found the site of the grave of the Unknown Sailor.

The body of a sailor was recovered on Christmas Island on February 6 1942 and was subsequently buried in an unmarked grave. A Parliamentary Inquiry deemed it as "highly probable" that the sailor was from the ill-fated cruiser HMAS Sydney, lost with all hands after a desperate fight with the German raider Kormoran.

During the week June 8 to 14 the four-person team, led by Lieutenant Commander Richard Chartier from Navy Headquarters in Canberra, narrowed the search field to an area of about 12 square meters and believes they may have identified a possible location of the unmarked grave within that area.

According to Lieutenant Commander Chartier the old European Cemetery had changed significantly since the sailor was buried there.

"Most of the site was overgrown with scrub and a large amount of debris has been deposited over the area," he said. "The regrowth and the steep slope combined to make the search quite difficult."

The weather was also a factor that required consideration by the team. "Torrential rain made the surface of the cemetery muddy, slippery and quite hazardous. Our First Aid Kit was put to good use as team members received minor cuts and abrasions during the search," Lieutenant Commander Chartier said.

Despite the conditions, by Wednesday the team had cleared away the scrub, found the perimeters of the old residence garden, and marked out a path that led past the gravesite.

"Mr Kevin Lourey, a crucial member of the team, who spent 20 years on Christmas as a civil engineer from 1949, was then able to identify a grave-sized area that he believes is where the grave is located. An area of about 12 square meters has been set aside for an eventual excavation." Lieutenant Commander Chartier said.

"We have sketched the area and requested that a detailed survey be conducted. However, all markings will be removed to reduce the likelihood of disturbance to the site to our return later in the year to attempt an exhumation of the remains."

The team returned to the mainland on Friday June 15 and is hopeful that it has located the unmarked grave. Nevertheless, as explained in the Parliamentary Inquiry's Report on the Loss of HMAS Sydney, it must be stressed that even if remains are found, they may not reveal the identity of the Unknown Sailor.

Should any remains be found, a decision will be made in due course regarding their future reinterment.

Before departing Lieutenant Commander Chartier was full of praise for the support and interest extended his party on Christmas Island. "The cooperation we received was marvellous," he said. "People made us feel most welcome and the assistance they provided made our job so much easier."


The Sydney was soon ablaze with her forward turrets wrecked. However, her after guns returned a short but effective fire, hitting the Kormoran in the engine room and causing a fire that eventually was to prove fatal to the raider. Down by the bow, she turned as if to ram the German ship or to bring her starboard torpedo tubes to bear. She passed close astern of Kormoran and narrowly missed her with a salvo of torpedoes. All the time she was under fire from the raider’s guns.

She limped off into the evening well ablaze and her glare could be distinguished until 11 p.m (WA time). after which only occasional flickerings could be seen and these had vanished by midnight. Meanwhile, Kormoran’s crew had abandoned ship and the raider blew up at 1.30 a.m (WA time). Seventy-eight of Kormoran’s complement of 393 were lost. The survivors were picked up by other ships or reached the West Australian coast.

None of Sydney’s 645 men survived.



On the afternoon of 19 November 1941 the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran (Commander Theodor Detmers) was steaming on a northeasterly course off the coast of Western Australia, approximately 150 miles south west of Carnarvon. Just before 4.00 pm a warship was sighted and Commander Detmers turned the Kormoran west into the sun, increasing speed to 16.5 knots, the maximum available. A broken piston rod was soon to reduce this to 14 knots.

The approaching warship, the light cruiser HMAS Sydney, had sighted the Kormoran and increased speed to intercept her. She quickly began to overhaul the raider, approaching on a slightly converging course off the German's starboard quarter and flashing the signal NNJ ("You should make your signal letters") on her searchlight. It was not Kormoran's business to fight warships except as a last resort, as her best hope for survival was to convince the Sydney that she was an innocent merchantman. If fighting became unavoidable, however, the raider was best served by luring her opponent as close as possible before revealing her concealed armament. To this end, when replying to Sydney's signal, the raider's flag hoist was deliberately fumbled and then hoisted in a position where the flags would be obscured by the funnel and difficult to read. The Sydney repeatedly demanded that the signal be hoisted clear, and, when the Kormoran eventually complied, the letters PKQI could be discerned. This was the callsign of the Dutch freighter Straat Malakka.

While this was taking place the range was steadily closing. By 5.00 the Sydney was off the Kormoran's port quarter and drawing abeam to a position where the raider's armament could be used to maximum effect. Still hoping to pass as a Dutch ship Straat Malakka, the raider began to broadcast QQQQ ("suspicious ship sighted"). This message was received faintly, in garbled form, by the tug UCO and the wireless station at Geraldton, and, presumably, by the Sydney.

Sydney next signalled: "Where bound?", to which the Kormoran replied: "Batavia". Captain Burnett must have been still suspicious as the Australian cruiser's next signal was "IX". To the Germans this signal made no sense as, according to the code book, it meant "You should prepare for a cyclone, hurricane or typhoon". The letters were in fact the middle letters of the secret callsign of the real Straat Malakka (IIXP) and the correct response was to send the outer letters. This, of course, the Kormoran could not do.

It was 5.30 and the ships were steaming parallel on south easterly courses at 14 knots, the Australian cruiser abeam of the raider at a range of 1,500 metres, a perfect target. The Sydney's fate was sealed when she flashed to the Kormoran: "Show your secret sign." Detmers now had no choice but to fight. The Kormoran hoisted the German ensign, uncovered her armament and opened fire. Two ranging shots pitched short and over respectively then a full salvo hit, smashing into the Sydney's bridge structure and director tower. Simultaneously, the Kormoran fired two torpedoes. Her automatic 2-centimetre anti-aircraft guns and rapid firing 3.7-centimetre anti-tank guns played onto the cruiser's bridge and also amidships, where the two port four-inch guns of the secondary armament and the torpedo tubes were mounted.

The Sydney replied with a salvo from her six-inch guns that tore over the Kormoran. However, the cruiser's forward turrets were knocked out by the raider's third and fourth salvoes, then the fifth caught the Sydney's aircraft on the catapult, wrecking it and spreading burning fuel over the ship amidships. About this time the Sydney's after turrets came into action, firing in local control. Y turret fired two or three unsuccessful salvoes before falling silent but X turret opened a rapid and accurate fire which hit the Kormoran in the funnel, engine room and electrical installations, starting uncontrollable fires. Shortly after this, one of the raider's torpedoes hit the Sydney abreast her forward turrets. Within five minutes of the commencement of the action both ships were mortally wounded.

The Sydney, down by the bow, turned sharply to port onto a southerly course as if to ram the Kormoran or to bring her starboard torpedo tubes to bear. She passed close astern, under fire from the raider's after guns At 5.45 pm, as the range opened, the cruiser fired her four starboard torpedoes at the raider, all of which narrowly missed astern. About the same time the Kormoran's engines broke down.

As the Sydney struggled off to the south she was hit repeatedly by the Kormoran's port side guns and at 6.00 the raider fired a torpedo from her port underwater tube which missed. The Kormoran continued to fire at the Sydney until 6.25, by which time her own engine room was wrecked and uncontrollably ablaze. As a raider she was finished and, mindful of her full cargo of mines, Detmers ordered her abandoned. As the crew left the Kormoran scuttling charges were set. They were fired at midnight when the last of the crew had departed. At 12.30 the mines exploded and the Kormoran sank. Of her crew of 393 officers and men, 78 lost their lives, either in the action or the sea afterwards. Two captured Chinese were also killed.

The Sydney was last seen about ten miles away, well ablaze and limping off into the gathering evening. Her glare could be distinguished until 10.00 and then only occasional flickerings which had ceased by midnight. Of her complement of 645, none survived.
- http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/hmas ... action.htm

By JASON MAROCCHI

MORE than 3000 people crammed around the HMAS Sydney memorial at Mount Scott yesterday for its dedication ceremony.

Among the crowd were relatives of those who perished on board the Sydney, former crew members and survivors from the German raider Kormoran.

The Komoran was the ship which sunk the Sydney on this very day 60 years ago after a gun battle off the coast between Geraldton and Carnarvon.

All 645 men aboard HMAS Sydney were lost without trace.

Yesterday's dedication ceremony was a fitting tribute to those who perished.

The sun glistened off the stainless steel seagulls which make the memorial dome as relatives laid wreaths in memory of the crew members.

Six-hundred and 45 school children placed poppies along the wall of remembrance, one for each of the dead seamen.
- http://www.geraldtonguardian.com.au/Arc ... 01news.htm

e.polis...here is just some random facts/sides of the HMAS Sydney story...hope it helps
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Postby varjag on 27 Jun 2004 12:40

Anzac - a very good and comprehensive summary! And testing my own advice to e.polis - I couldn't find the previous posts. The 'enquiry industry' has - and will probably in the future - do well out of the HMAS SYDNEY. The bottom line is that the SYDNEY must have 'bought' Detmers STRAAT MALAKKA guise beyond reason - and paid the price. Seem to recall that her 6-inch turrets even were trained fore-and-aft when she closed the KORMORAN. The fact that a German Hilfskreuzer could sink a R.A.N. cruiser without survivors - has rankled with us ever since but no enquiry will change the fact. My own tuppence is that the severe fires onboard SYDNEY eventually reached - and blew - one or two of her magazines, whereupon she would have foundered in a matter of minutes, if not seconds, accounting for the total loss of the crew.
PS - do u know that one of KORMORANS life-boats is still at Carnarvon in a derelict state? DS
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Postby Anzac on 28 Jun 2004 04:28

varjag, thats a very good theory about the fires reaching the magazines...look at what happened with HMS Hood after she encountered the Bismarck. My great-uncle remembers standing at a station when a train came through carrying the prisoners from the Kormoran.
I just hope that in the next few years that we will be able to find the wreckage of the Sydney and thus put an end to the mystery of where she sank, imagine the headlines it would create if it were found and it would also put to rest the relatives minds of what happened to their loved ones on the ship.

I did not know of the lifeboat from the Kormoran, anyone got any pictures?
And also is there a website/association of survivors of the Kormoran?
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Postby e.polis on 29 Jun 2004 12:26

G'day

there is also a Kormoran life boat in the out door museum at Whiteman Park located at the NE outskirts of Perth.

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Postby varjag on 29 Jun 2004 12:41

Anzac - I don't know if anything would be served by the finding of the wreck of SYDNEY. Apart from 'the inquiry industry' mentioned in my earlier post and yes, OF COURSE - the media who would also have a couple field days - I can already whiff the hype......NEW FINDINGS - but what would it change? Really nothing - a German Hilfskreuzer outsmarted an Australian Cruiser - both sank, many Germans survived, no Australians ce la guerre
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Postby Aufklarung on 29 Jun 2004 20:26

Some interesting info on the search for these ships can be found here:
http://www.albury.net.au/~wwhittake/sydneysearch/

Don't forget the "possible" involvement of an IJN Submarine either!!:
http://www.albury.net.au/~wwhittake/syd ... omery.html

Personally I feel varjag is correct in assuming what happened.

regards
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Postby Michael Tapner on 30 Jun 2004 11:41

There is an interesting postscript to the Kormoran / Sydney duel.

Due to the shortage of shipping the German survivors remained in Australia until January 1947. When they made their way to the docks, the ship berthed down in the harbor was the Straat Mallaka - which was the ship that the Kormoran had been trying to impersonate in the duel with the Sydney.
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Postby varjag on 30 Jun 2004 12:17

Aufklarung - the 'japanese submarine thesis' has been banded about for years, mainly by a small number of believers who cannot accept the facts. A larger following of that thesis involve people who regularly have lunch with Elvis and are served pancake suppers by LGM's in Flying Saucers.
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Postby Aufklarung on 30 Jun 2004 21:44

varjag
Just to be clear; my mentioning a "possible" Japanese sub involvement doesn't mean I believe it. :wink: Seems rather far-fetched.

Just thought it was worth posting the link. :idea:

Anyway..............pass the pancake syrup please, Elvis!! :lol:

regards
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Postby Karwats on 30 Jun 2004 22:33

Somoene asked for a pic of HK KORMORAN??
Image

In my view for an armed merchantman (read Auxiliary cruiser) to take on and outfight a Cruiser is very impressive in anyone's book.
If memory serves this action and the outcome has no parallel in Naval Warfare and probably never will.
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Postby 1jasonoz on 01 Jul 2004 04:06

Its part of the mystery about the sinking. The Sydney had just come back from the Med where she had just sunk and Italian cruiser and damaged 2 Italian destroyers. She had just gotten a new captain onboard aswell. Its beleived that she may have closed close enough to allow the Kormaron to use her torpedos to sink her. Its still a point of argument(since no Australian survived) about how according to the German survivors they where able to hit the Sydney forst , with her replying. Some say they must have fired whilst still under a neutral flag(the survivors deny this) which would have allowed her to hit the Sydney.
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Postby varjag on 04 Jul 2004 11:43

1jasonoz wrote:Its part of the mystery about the sinking. The Sydney had just come back from the Med where she had just sunk and Italian cruiser and damaged 2 Italian destroyers. She had just gotten a new captain onboard aswell. Its beleived that she may have closed close enough to allow the Kormaron to use her torpedos to sink her. Its still a point of argument(since no Australian survived) about how according to the German survivors they where able to hit the Sydney forst , with her replying. Some say they must have fired whilst still under a neutral flag(the survivors deny this) which would have allowed her to hit the Sydney.
The tactic used by the Hilfskreuzers was, when possible, that to the last moment before dropping the disguise, the fake flag and ID was maintained. Only when the skirts shielding the guns were dropped was the fake flag quickly hauled down and up went the swastika at the same time. This entire 'disrobing' with a well-trained crew took less than 15-30 seconds and since KORMORAN's gun crews knew beforehand where the target was, but the SYDNEY didn't even suspect the "STRAAT MALAKKA" as a target - it becomes academical whether the first salvo was fired with the Dutch flag 'on the way down and the swastika on the way up' or not.
SYDNEY's Commander was fooled by the Germans.
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Postby Anzac on 04 Jul 2004 12:05

hello ppl, thought you might be interested in the following link(http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... /kormoran/)

Some notes on the Kormoran
*Laid down as transport ship Steiermark

Laid down: Germaniawerft Kiel, 1938
Launched: 15.09.1938
Commissioned: 09.10.1940 as auxiliary cruiser
Fate: sunk on 20.11.1941

Size: 19900 t
Length: 164 m
Beam: 20,2 m
Draft: 8,5 m
Armament: 6 x 15 cm; 1x 7,5 cm; 2 x 3,7 cm; 5 x 2 cm;
6 x torpedo tubes, 2 x Arado Ar 196 float planes
1 x Small Fast Attack boat LS3; 360 Mines

Performance: 16000 shp, 18 kn

The Kormoran was the biggest auxiliary cruiser used by the Kriegsmarine in World War II. Besides this, it was the only one which
was able to sink a major warship in a direct battle. The ship left Germany on 03.12.1940 and entered the North Atlantic through the Denmark Street. Until April of the following year, the ship operated in the North Atlantic, after that it sailed into the Indian Ocean. On 19.11.1941, the auxiliary cruiser was detected by the Australian CL Sydney . Unaware that the Kormoran was armed, the Sydney close-up to the German ship which opened fire form very close range. The Sydney was badly damaged and on fire when it was last seen by the German ship and sunk after the battle. The Kormoran was so heavily damaged in this battle that it had to be abandoned and blown up.


lol i found this short "history" interesting...does it seem to you that the author suggests that the Germans scuttled the Kormoran?

#RP#
the link - http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... ml....also has other information on the other Hilfskreuzer's..etc...Orion,Atlantis,Widder,Thor,Pinguin,Stier,Komet,Michel
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