Unintentional mass murder? -- alternative explanations

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michael mills
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#1

Post by michael mills » 08 Aug 2004, 09:45

WalterS wrote:
Denial of those two elements: 1. Intent and planning, and 2. Carrying out that plan, constitutes Holocaust denial.
The above illustrates the essentially tendentious nature of the concept of "Holocaust denial". It is defined in such a way as to preclude any questioning of established interpretations of what happened during the Second World War.

Only a wilfully blind person would dispute that some millions of European Jews perished during the war while under German control, the majority being actively killed either by shooting (the more common methodology) or by poison-gassing. But it perfectly possible to question whether the German Government ever had a comprehensive extermination plan aimed at all Jews under its control; it is perfectly possible to explain the mass mortality of the Jews without recourse to the postulation of such a plan.

What we can say is that the German Government had a policy of making all of German-dominated Europe "Jew-free" by removing all the Jews living on that territory and sending them somewhere else. The removal of all Jews was called the "Endlösung der Judenfrage in Europa" (the final solution of the Jewish Question in Europe), a term that was used officially since at least 1938; a Foreign Ministry with that title was started in 1938, and on it was found the one surviving copy of the minutes of the Wannsee Conference.

The policy of a "Jew-free" Europe was to be achieved before the war by emigration ,and after the outbreak of war by forced mass-deportation to locations outside Europe, for which two plans existed, one for deportation to Madagascar, started in 1940, and one for deportation to Siberia, started at the beginning of 1941 and superseding the Madagascar Plan.

Thus, if Britain had agreed to make peace with Germany in 1940, the Madagascar Plan would have been implemented, and the Jews of the part of Europe dominated by Germany (ie west of the Soviet border) would have been resettled on the highlands of Madagascar, an area as pleasant as the highlands of Kenya.

If Germany had defeated the Soviet Union in 1941, it would have compelled the rump Russian state existing to the east of the Urals to take all the Jews of Europe (if they had not already been sent to Madagascar).

German documents, such as Rosenberg's "Braune Mappe", or Stahlecker's letter to Lohse of 8 August 1941, demonstrate conclusively that the German plan was to solve the Jewish Question through expulsion to a destination outside Europe after the expected victory over the Soviet Union and subsequently over Britain. In the meantime, the Soviet Jews were to be ghettoised, and those capable of work were to be used for rural work, such as forestry in the White Sea area or for draining the Prypiat' Marshes. The deportation of non-Soviet Jews into the occupied Soviet areas and subsequently across the Urals was likewise not to commence until after the expected German victory.

The German invaders of the Soviet Union did carry out some large-scale massacres of Soviet Jews, but the purpose was to panic those Jews who had not already fled or been evacuated by the Soviet authorities into packing their bags and fleeing over the Urals. That is precisely what Hitler meant when he said to his cronies in October 1941, "It is a good thing if we are preceded by the terror that we are going to exterminate Jewry".

Why was it a good thing if the advancing German forces were preceded by terror? Because the Jews would run away, leaving the territory "Jew-free", and thereby obviating the need to go to the trouble of ghettoising them.

If the German aim had been physical extermination of the Soviet Jews, a preceding terror that caused the Jews to flee would have been counter-productive, it would not have been a "good thing" as Hitler termed it.

However, the course of events was that Germany did not defeat the Soviet Union, and it was left with millions of Jews on its hands, Jews who were eating scarce food and occupying scarce living space. It was at that point that proposals to kill a segment of the Jewish populations of various locations, generally those that could not be used for labour, began to emerge.

The available German documentation shows that those proposals came originally from local German occupation authorities which were faced with the immediate problem of storing the "warehoused" Jews. For example, Greiser's letter to Himmler of 31 May 1942 shows that it was he who had suggested "special treatment" (A technical term meaning extra-judicial execution with the approval of the RSHA) of 100,000 Jews of Reichsgau Wartheland (about one-third of the Jewish population of that area); Greiser's request led to the establishment of the extermination centre at Kulmhof (Chelmno).

In the case of the ghettoised Jewish population of the Generalgouvernement, the Goebbels diary entry of 27 March 1942 shows that the proposal accepted by the German Government was the "liquidation" of that part of the population assessed as unusable for forced labour, estimated at 60%, and that Globocnik had been appointed to carry out that action. In other words, it was not total extermination, and only the Jews of Poland were affected by the action.

There is no causal relationship between the development of poison-gassing as a killing methodology and the various proposals to drastically reduce the number of "warehoused" Jews in the East; the construction of gas-chambers does not prove the existence of a comprehensive plan to physically exterminate the entire Jewish population under German control.

The historical fact is that the homicidal gassing methodology, both that using CO and that using HCN, were developed for purposes totally unrelated to policy regarding the surplus Jews. The CO gassing methodology was developed initially for "euthanasing" a proportion of the institutionalised population of Germany, in particular those that were unable because of mental illness or grave personality disorders to perform any work in their own support and hence represented an unbearable burden in wartime. The "gas van" using its own exhaust as the killing medium was developed to "euthanase" inmates of mental hospitals in the conquered Soviet territories. That methodology was later applied to "euthanasing" Jews unable to work, but that was an afterthought. It was also used on sick concentration-camp inmates despatched to the Euthanasia centres.

Likewise, the use of the HCN in Zyklon-B for homicidal purposes was initially developed at Auschwitz for the purpose of killing Soviet POWs who had been weeded out of the POW camps as "dangerous Communists" and had been sent to the concentration camps for "Sonderbehandlung". The methodology was then used on sick inmates of Auschwitz camp under Aktion 14f13, which then came to include masses of Jews who arrived at Auschwitz and were immediately or subsequently selected as unfit for labour.

Thus, it is entirely possible to question the existence of a definitive German Government decision for a comprehensive physical extermination of all Jews under German control, without disputing the reality of a million-fold Jewish mortality during the Second World War, including the death of many hundreds of thousands, possibly over one million, in gas-chambers.

alf
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#2

Post by alf » 08 Aug 2004, 12:01

Only a wilfully blind person would dispute that some millions of European Jews perished during the war while under German control, the majority being actively killed either by shooting (the more common methodology) or by poison-gassing. But it perfectly possible to question whether the German Government ever had a comprehensive extermination plan aimed at all Jews under its control; it is perfectly possible to explain the mass mortality of the Jews without recourse to the postulation of such a plan.


I'd love to hear the definitive explanation, I notice it never ever is actually stated. As to where did all the missing people go, I note that Michael did agree millions died but turned it around subtely to possibly million below, (where is the proof to dispute the 5-6million? )
Thus, it is entirely possible to question the existence of a definitive German Government decision for a comprehensive physical extermination of all Jews under German control, without disputing the reality of a million-fold Jewish mortality during the Second World War, including the death of many hundreds of thousands, possibly over one million, in gas-chambers
Simply put, starting as the basic point. Was the subjection imposed on the Jew in Germany from 1933 justifed? Anyone? Where are the revisionists speaking about violation of human rights instigated then? Note the word human.

The German Governement? You mean Hitler and his inner circle, strange that the Nazis controlled every aspect of German life, but on the Holocaust, well like Sgt Schultz from Hogan Heroe's we hear bleated "I know nothing". As a source I would recommend Karl Wollf's interview on The World at War Series, to hear first rate bleating from one of the "inner circle" The classic, "I was tricked into joining the SS" , "I didnt know i had to witness a massacre with Himmler" iy goes on and on.

As always I look in vain for sources and proof (something I thought the Forum had rules on) and as always I never see them. What I do see repeatedly, is antiseminitism masquerading as psuedo scholarship.

I don't disagree that docmentation is thin but that is because it was deliberately destroyed by the Nazis, not that it never existed as Michael postulates. All the thousands of German and Nazi witness prove beyond reasonable doubt what actually happened.

Sites such as the IHR, VHO Zundel, CODOH, Irvings etc all share a common bond, they are all virulantly antisemitic. I have read Michael's posts on many of them so I am sure there is no trouble in providing proof for all the claims.

Michael needs to provide verifable proofs for his claims ranging from the unfortunate soviets gassed on 3 September 1941 (how were the carefully selected?) , through to Madagascar climate to that only 1,000,000 million Jews were murdered. How more were murdered by the Einzgruppen than by gassing, etc etc.

Over to you Michael, I hope to see a long list of internet links addressing each claim you raised substantiating your points. That way debate can flourish.

Somehow I suspect none will be produced, like the Acton Reinhardt arguement, when pushed to provide proof, the classic denier arguemnt was dragged out. falling back on secret inner poltical backfighting Nazi's, the Hindmarsh bridge is very big isnt it?


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WalterS
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#3

Post by WalterS » 08 Aug 2004, 15:41

Mr Michael Mills wrote

Thus, it is entirely possible to question the existence of a definitive German Government decision for a comprehensive physical extermination of all Jews under German control, without disputing the reality of a million-fold Jewish mortality during the Second World War, including the death of many hundreds of thousands, possibly over one million, in gas-chambers.
This of course, begs the question: if the German govt didn't intend to exterminate the Jewish population, then how did the gas chambers get built, by whom and who paid for them? It is nonsense to imply that they just sort of popped up because some local commandant decided to carry things a bit far. The very existence of the gas chambers shows intent and planning. That's why the non-denial deniers so viciously attack them. Take away the chambers, you take away the plan. Take away the plan, you take away the intent. Take away the intent and the Nazi regime was really no worse than everybody else. That is the whole point of the denial argument: to rehabilitate National Socialism.

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Hans Kloss
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#4

Post by Hans Kloss » 08 Aug 2004, 20:32

Surely plans for extermination would logically be a large scale,pre-planned operation with massive logistic back up with authorisation coming from the highest Reich's authority - Herr Hitler himself.And somehow I can't believe order (s) of such importance would be give as oral command.Yes,I have read all about coded words,Hilberg's "incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy." but I hardly find it convincing.
That is the whole point of the denial argument: to rehabilitate National Socialism.
I wonder what reason would someone like Paul Rassinier had in whitewashing Nazis who put him in concentration camp.

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#5

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2004, 01:34

WalterS writes that the construction of gas-chambers shows intent and planning.

It certainly does. But what intent? And what plan?

As I have shown, the development of homicidal gas-chambers had no connection whatever with any intent or plan to physically exterminate the Jewish population in its entirety.

CO gas-chambers were developed to kill a proportion of the inmate population of German mental hospitals. Then it was used to kill concentration-camp prisoners who had become too sick or weak to work.

The mobile gas-chambers using engine exhaust were developed to kill the inmates of Soviet mental hospitals.

HCN gas-chambers were developed at Auschwitz initially to kill fanatically Communist Soviet POWs, and then used to kill camp inmates who had become too sick and weak to work.

The only instance of the homicidal methodology being applied specifically to Jews was the culling of 60% of the Jewish population of the Generalgouvernement unable to be used for forced labour, carried out at the three Globocnik camps. That represented an adaptation of the CO gas-chmabers used in the Euthanasia program in Germany, coupled with the engine-exhaust methodology developed for a similar euthanasia program in the occupied Soviet Union.

There is no hard evidence that the gas-chambers constructed in the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex were specifically part of a Jew-extermination program. They were built for the purpose of culling camp inmates who had become to sick and debilitated to work, under the 14f13 program. As Jews came to constitute the majority of prisoners sent to Auschwitz, from march 1942 onward, they also came to constitute the great majority of victims selected for killing in the gas-chambers.

In summary, the design, construction and use of gas-chambers does indicate an intention by the German Government to kill particular categories of people seen as surplus and burdensome, of which Jews unable to be used for labour in the service of the German war effort were one. But their existence does not prove a German Government intention to exterminate the entire Jewish population in particular.

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#6

Post by David Thompson » 09 Aug 2004, 08:23

Michael -- What about all those statements by Himmler and Heydrich (not to mention Hitler's bloodthirsty threats)?

Himmer, Heydrich and the Fuehrer Order
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24139

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Mostowka
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#7

Post by Mostowka » 09 Aug 2004, 10:56

Michael Mills wrote:
Thus, if Britain had agreed to make peace with Germany in 1940, the Madagascar Plan would have been implemented, and the Jews of the part of Europe dominated by Germany (ie west of the Soviet border) would have been resettled on the highlands of Madagascar, an area as pleasant as the highlands of Kenya.
You keep saying that as if it was the absolute truth "if", followed by "then then would have happened", - how can you be so sure of that ? Can you provide any substantial body of evidence that prves that Madagascar was anything more that just fantasy picked up from the Polish pre-war goverment ? This claim is frankly absurd and it will not become more real if you keep repeating it.

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Mostowka
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#8

Post by Mostowka » 09 Aug 2004, 11:02

Hans Kloss:
wonder what reason would someone like Paul Rassinier had in whitewashing Nazis who put him in concentration camp.
Not all of course, but quite a few - it is a motive well concealed and is most often obvious when NS parties start using holocaust denial like it´s awlays been there. In Sweden the NS party changed it´s attitude towards the holocaust during the 1990´s and adopted the "standard" holocaust denier stance.

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Hans Kloss
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#9

Post by Hans Kloss » 09 Aug 2004, 11:46

Madagascar plan was more then a fantasy and there is enough documentary evidence to prove such a plan was being seriously considered.

On 3 July 1940 Franz Rademacher, responsible for Jewish affairs at the Foreign Affairs Ministry, drew up a report titled: "The Jewish Question in the Peace Treaty" which opens with the following declaration:
The imminent victory gives Germany the possibility and, in my opinion, also the duty, to resolve the Jewish question in Europe. The desirable solution is: all the Jews out of Europe.

After having set forth the responsibilities of the Foreign Affairs Ministry relative to that solution, Rademacher goes on "Section D II proposes as a solution to the Jewish question in the peace treaty France should make Madagascar available for the solution of the Jewish question and transfer and indemnify the 25,000 French who live there. The island will come under German mandate."
Rademacher's report was approved by Ribbentrop and transmitted to the Reich Central Security Department, which "elaborated a detailed plan for the evacuation of the Jews to Madagascar and for their settlement there; this plan was approved by the Reichsführer-SS "

On 12 July 1940, upon returning from Berlin, where he had been received by Hitler, Hans Frank, governor of Poland, made a speech in which he declared:
"From the viewpoint of general policy, I would like to add that it was decided to deport all the Jewish communities of Germany, of the General Government [Poland], and of the Protectorate [Bohemia-Moravia] to an African or an American colony as soon as possible after having made peace: Madagascar, which France would have to abandon to that end, has been suggested.."
On 29 July Frank repeated that Hitler had decided that the Jews would be completely evacuated as soon as overseas transport permitted.

In October 1940 Alfred Rosenberg wrote an article titled: "Jews to Madagascar." As far back as 1927, he recalled, at the anti-Jewish congress in Budapest:
... the question of a future evacuation of Jews from Europe was taken up, and on that occasion appeared for the first time the proposal to promote precisely Madagascar as the future domicile of the Jews...
Goebbels according to the testimony of Morit von Schirmeister, a former Propaganda Ministry official, spoke publicly and repeatedly of the Madagascar project.
Dr. Fritz: Where were the Jews to be evacuated to according to the declarations of Dr. Goebbels?

Von Schirmeister: Up until the first year, including the Russian campaign, Dr. Goebbels mentioned several times the Madagascar plan at conferences at which he presided. Afterwards, he changed his mind and said it was necessary to set up a new Jewish state in the east, to which the Jews then would be sent.


Ribbentrop :
Führer then proposed the evacuation of the European Jews to North Africa -- but Madagascar also came up. He ordered me to make contact with the various governments to induce emigration of Jews, and their exclusion from important organizations as far as possible. That order was then directed by me to the Foreign Affairs Ministry and. as far as I can remember, contacts were made repeatedly with several governments on the subject of emigration of Jews to North Africa, which was anticipated


Madagascar project was then provisionally abandoned soon after Wannsee conference. An informative letter of 10 February 1942 by Rademacher gives the reason for this:
In August 1940, I sent you, for your files, the plan for the final solution of the Jewish question [zur Endlösung der Judenfrage] formulated by my office, according to which in the peace treaty the island of Madagascar was to be required of France but the practical execution of that task was to be entrusted to the Reich Central Security Agency. In conformance with that plan, GruppenFührer Heydrich has been charged by the Führer with solving the Jewish question in Europe.

Meanwhile, the war against the Soviet Union has put more territory for the final solution [für die Endlösung] at our disposal. Consequently, the Führer has decided to expel the Jews not to Madagascar, but to the east. Therefore it is no longer necessary to look to Madagascar for the final solution. [Madagaskar braucht mithin nicht mehr für die Endlösung vorgesehen zu werden].


I have not read yet book I have received in the post few weeks about Nazi's plans to create Jewish state in Lublin area.I had quick look at it appears to be very interesting although written in Polish.Edward Gigilewicz
“Lublinland – państwo żydowskie w planach Trzeciej Rzeszy“
(Lublinland –Jewish state in 3rd Reich’s plans)
Michael -- What about all those statements by Himmler and Heydrich (not to mention Hitler's bloodthirsty threats)?
Statements like that remind me to certain point various threats made against Western World by communist leaders.Like these of Khurschev who did promised to destroy USA or Ilya Ehrenburg's, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second World War who incited Soviet soldiers to treat Germans as sub-human:
The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another -- there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill.
Does this hate-fuelled statement indicates existence of pre-planned Soviet genocide policy against Germans? perhaps there are similarities between this rant and various anti-Semitic statements made by Nazis calling for Jewish blood etc.Countless atrocities were no doubt committed because of that sort of propaganda.

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#10

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 09 Aug 2004, 12:58

And somehow I can't believe order (s) of such importance would be give as oral command.
Actually, most of Hitler's orders were oral, as he was notorious for hating paperwork. Martin Bormann used to scribble down Hitler's rants, musings and desires, which would then be turned into "Fuhrer Orders".

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#11

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2004, 14:13

David Thompson asked:
Michael -- What about all those statements by Himmler and Heydrich (not to mention Hitler's bloodthirsty threats)?

Himmer, Heydrich and the Fuehrer Order
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24139
I have given my comments on those statements in the linked thread.

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#12

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2004, 14:20

Rob-WSSOB claimed:
Actually, most of Hitler's orders were oral, as he was notorious for hating paperwork. Martin Bormann used to scribble down Hitler's rants, musings and desires, which would then be turned into "Fuhrer Orders".
That is the sort of assertion that can be neither proved nor disproved, rather like the existence of God.

If you claim that Hitler issued oral orders that are not recorded anywhere, then there is no limit to what you can claim he ordered.

The fact is that almost all of Hitler's crucial orders relating to the killing actions are recorded in documents, either over his own signature or over that of his highest subordinates, eg the euthanasia order, his appointment of Himmler as Reichskommissar für die Festigung deutschen Volkstums with authority to take action against enemy population groups, the Commissar order.

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#13

Post by Panzermahn » 09 Aug 2004, 14:39

Rob-WSSOB claimed:

Quote:
Actually, most of Hitler's orders were oral, as he was notorious for hating paperwork. Martin Bormann used to scribble down Hitler's rants, musings and desires, which would then be turned into "Fuhrer Orders".


That is the sort of assertion that can be neither proved nor disproved, rather like the existence of God.

If you claim that Hitler issued oral orders that are not recorded anywhere, then there is no limit to what you can claim he ordered.

The fact is that almost all of Hitler's crucial orders relating to the killing actions are recorded in documents, either over his own signature or over that of his highest subordinates, eg the euthanasia order, his appointment of Himmler as Reichskommissar für die Festigung deutschen Volkstums with authority to take action against enemy population groups, the Commissar order.
Michael is right. If a secret order such as the killing of jews can be made orally by Herr Hitler himself, i find it surprising that secret orders such as the commissars order, night and fog decree were issued black & white..Why should OKW bothered to waste resources to gave Hitler's order on paper where it is known that Hitler can give oral orders and the Germans obeyed it as asserted by most of the forum members here?

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#14

Post by JariL » 09 Aug 2004, 15:08

<If a secret order such as the killing of jews can be made orally by Herr <Hitler himself, i find it surprising that secret orders such as the <commissars order, night and fog decree were issued black & <white..Why should OKW bothered to waste resources to gave Hitler's <order on paper where it is known that Hitler can give oral orders and <the Germans obeyed it as asserted by most of the forum members <here?

Nacht und Nebel -order was given to the whole army. It was an explicit instruction about the way the war should be fought -from a simple soldier to the highest ranks.

Extemination of population groups was never intended to be done by the Wehrmacht. That job was reserved to the security organs, police battalions and certain SS units. It was also an action that was not to be made public, probably not even after the war at least if we are to believe the speeches that Himmler gave to his subordinates on the matter.

Oral orders were not at all uncommon in Nazi regime. They were used from the beginning for any "unpleasant" things and the reason was also clear:they could be denied afterwards if necessary. I don't remember reading about any hard evidence existing about who gave the order for the 1934 murders of the SA-leaders and of some other people who had opposed Hitler. Still the historians seem to accept the idea that Hitler gave the order. Deductions can be made even if there is no paper trail. It becomes harder but it is not impossible.

Regards,

Jari

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#15

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2004, 15:12

Concerning the 1934 executions of the SA leaders, Hitler immediately afterwards publicly proclaimed his responsibility for them. There was no attempt to conceal them.

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