The Anders' (Polish) Army

[Rarog]

In 1941 the Soviets recruited and armed the Polish army of Anders (114 K), but in this crucial moment they refused to fight with the Germans and demanded to send them to Middle East, where they peacefully were guarding oil transportation system.

Why the Poles refused to fight with the Germans?

[Ogorek]

Very easy..... because we would rather fight against them

[Liluh]

LOL Ogorek

[Rarog]

It explains it all

[Rarog]

Very easy..... because we would rather fight against them

FRunny you mentioned it, considering amazing number of Poles fighting WITH the Germans AGAINST the Red Army...

60 280 captured Poles on the Eastern Front... that eans that about 100 000 Poles were fighting in the Wehrmacht, and 50 000 of Poles were killed.

[Ogorek]

Grazdanyn Rarog.....

Yes Poles fought with the WH, my relatives were conscripted from Pomorze as III Klasse Volksdeutsche, it was not their decision

I have seen and met your type before, and was glad that events made your type all the more rare.... but the world is not a perfect place.... enjoy yours.

Take a tranqualizer.... you add NOTHING constructive to this forum...

[PolAntek]

In 1941 the Soviets recruited and armed the Polish army of Anders…

Are you the Second Coming of Oleg?

Certainly in 2004 you no longer need to rely solely on pre-1990 Soviet history books for your understanding of events in WWII. Or is this still not allowed over there?

Soviets recruited Anders’ army?! More accurately the Soviets condemned the Polish POW’s to a slow death of overwork and starvation in the wastelands of the Soviet Union. It was only because Stalin and his RA were getting their asses kicked by the Germans that they decided to scramble all of the help they could get. This included freeing the Poles through an amnesty worked out through the efforts of General Sikorski.and the Lodon based exile government.

And then no effort was made by the Soviets to provide any assistance to the many thousands of emaciated, sick and overworked Poles to help them reach the gathering point. They were left to fend for themselves with no supplies to make, in many cases, journeys of thousands of kilometers. Many died on route. This is a terribly tragic chapter in the ongoing saga of Russian / Soviet oppression of the Polish nation .

Many of the soldiers that did not make it before Stalin again shut the door were given the choice of conscription into the Red Army - or to go back to banishment and a certain death.

[yerbamatt]

In 1941 the Soviets recruited and armed the Polish army of Anders (114 K), but in this crucial moment they refused to fight with the Germans and demanded to send them to Middle East, where they peacefully were guarding oil transportation system.

Why the Poles refused to fight with the Germans?

Privet Rarog, kak pozhivayete? (Hello, how are you?)

There is an interesting book " Without a Final Chapter" written by general Wladyslaw Anders (his memories of 1939-1946), published by the Gryf Publishers Ltd, London, UK, 1987 edition. I red the book in Polish ("Bez Ostatniego Rozdzialu") - it would be a real eyeopener for you.

I do not expect you to study Polish - I wonder if there is any English edition. I will obviously try to get more info for you.

Zhelayu Vam vsego nayluchshego (All the best to you), Rarog

[szopen]

In 1941 the Soviets recruited and armed the Polish army of Anders (114 K), but in this crucial moment they refused to fight with the Germans and demanded to send them to Middle East, where they peacefully were guarding oil transportation system.

Why the Poles refused to fight with the Germans?

In shoirt: after long and painfull negotiations Soviets finally agreed to allow Polish army to be created on Soviet soil. It would be recruited from Poles deported earlier from Siberia and elsewhere. It was called "amnesty" despite most of million deported have been guilty only of being Polish.

People were dying when going to Anders army. People were dying en masse in Ander's camps also later.

Stalin demanded that Anders would send the units as soon as they are formed. That would been sending this soldiers to the slaughter - most of them were untrained, almosr unequipped and sick. Anders wanted whole army acting together, after proper training and receiving equipment. Soviets were claiming they are unable to provide food and equipment, so it would be better if British would do it. After many quarrels it was decided that Polish army would be better of fighting with Germans elsewhere, where it would be used as military force, not as cannon fodder. Amnogst the reasons were also the incoming newses about fate of Polish disappearing officers.

[Rarog]

Anders wanted whole army acting together, after proper training and receiving equipment

That's in the times when virtually un-armed and un-trained Russian were slowing advancement of Panzer divisions of Wehrmacht.

Small wonder Poles lost their fartherland.

Evidently Poles did not want to be cannon fodder neither in 1941 nor in 1939...

Remember, Poles are let to live due to sacrifice and heroism of Russian soldiers.

[szopen]

Anders wanted whole army acting together, after proper training and receiving equipment

That's in the times when virtually un-armed and un-trained Russian were slowing advancement of Panzer divisions of Wehrmacht.

Let me remind you about political context of that time. Most of Ander's soldiers had very bitter consequences ith Soviets. They remembered 1939 Soviet attack. And you DO know about mortality ratios in transports to Siberia, don't you?

Anders have every reason to suspect that Soviets want to destroy Polish army, making cheap political gesture. Polish units fighting separately, in force of batallions dispersed around the front, would be totally uselles and could as well be part of Red Army.

Sending people who are just released from camps, sick, with no training and with basic euqipment would be as good as shooting them by NKVD.

Evidently Poles did not want to be cannon fodder neither in 1941 nor in 1939...

Rarog, are you trying to enrage us especially or is that only a charm of yours?

In 1939 Polish units fought bravely and effectively. The tempo of Blitzkrieg in 1939 Poland was lower than In Russia 1941. Poland was attacked by Germany, Russia and Slovakia.

However Polish military doctrine, as doctrine of every civilised country, was not about using of soldiers as cannon fodder. Soldiers should fight as long as they have chances, and then gave up. It's natural civilised behaviour, when facing civilised opponent. In 1939 Poles were believing that they are facing civilised opponents. That's why most units were not fighting to the last men, but to the point where their situation was hopeless, and then the commanders take the decision of giving up to save the soldiers' life. Respect for soldiers' life may be a novum for you, but it's normal in western communities. Western military doctrine is to not waste soldier's lifes were they can be of better use in future.

Remember, Poles are let to live due to sacrifice and heroism of Russian soldiers.

And Polish ones too. 225.000 Polish soldiers in the West, close to half million in the east, and some 400.000 underground soldiers from AK, NSZ and AL.

Wonder how much do you know about civil war in Poland after 1945 about how AK soldiers were treated and what use was made by Russians from Majdanek concentration camp.

[Grom]

That's in the times when virtually un-armed and un-trained Russian were slowing advancement of Panzer divisions of Wehrmacht.
Small wonder Poles lost their fartherland.
Evidently Poles did not want to be cannon fodder neither in 1941 nor in 1939...
Remember, Poles are let to live due to sacrifice and heroism of Russian soldiers.

What sources of Your opinion are ?? Soviet or might comunistic propaganda books ?? Or its just small russian post-communistic overall opinion without any proofs about our grandfathers ?? Or your memory is to short for remember Ribbentrop-Molotov pact against Poland ?? Oups Did Russians participate again in military invasion on Poland in'39 ?? Looks like yes. But did You know what are prisoners rights ?? I dont think so. Your grandfathers killed almost all of captured polish soldiers in 1939. Cant You remember what Your principal Stalin answered on question waht about 200 000 Polish soldiers captured in 1939 ??

Polish citizens were sent deep into the russian eastern lands, where those peopole were slowly exterminated. Thats why when opportunity came, Anders brougth as many as he could Poles in yer CCCP wonderland & escaped from "ally".

What about your heroism ?? You were loosing everywhere in combat with Germans. Eastern front was moving deep into the russian land as quick as driven truck on the highway. Then help from west have come. A rquested help by northern seas. Even there Poles were, wonted russian med help (never know what Ivan has beside white medical clothes). You didnt have even crane there to lift cargo from supply ships. Many of supplies were lost by stupidity of workers. Destroy, destroy everything evewhere this is primary of Your egzist, You know best how to do it.

Your heroism stimulated by NKWD guns ?? Is that what You mean about russina soldiers fighting with heroism ?? Ofcourse, if they had choice die with honor in fight or die killed by NKWD, & whole familly exterminated after ?? Then your russian soldeirs fought bravely, suicidly i would say.

[Rarog]

Sending people who are just released from camps, sick, with no training and with basic euqipment would be as good as shooting them by NKVD.

You're trying to preent it like that the Polish army of Anders was unarmed and the soldiers couldn't move. I think it is NOT true.

With the other hand, plenty of totally unarmed and physically invalid Russians died defending their fartherland...

May I remind you of the heroism of exausted Russian civialians, who were digging anti-tank ditches? About defenders of Leningrad?

Poles evidently did not want to fight... oh no, noble Polish warriors did not want to be "cannoin fodder".

In 1939 Polish units fought bravely and effectively.

And on the 5th day the Polish government run away...

The tempo of Blitzkrieg in 1939 Poland was lower than In Russia 1941. Poland was attacked by Germany, Russia and Slovakia.

Are you sure it actually wasn't Poland who won the war of 1939?

However Polish military doctrine, as doctrine of every civilised country, was not about using of soldiers as cannon fodder. Soldiers should fight as long as they have chances, and then gave up. It's natural civilised behaviour, when facing civilised opponent. In 1939 Poles were believing that they are facing civilised opponents. That's why most units were not fighting to the last men, but to the point where their situation was hopeless, and then the commanders take the decision of giving up to save the soldiers' life. Respect for soldiers' life may be a novum for you, but it's normal in western communities. Western military doctrine is to not waste soldier's lifes were they can be of better use in future.

Sorry I don't buy that BS. Poles were illiterate morons and didn't read Mein Kampf? They knew nothing about Lebensraum? Nazi hatred towards Slavs? C'mon, give me a break!

[Grom]

Sorry I don't buy that BS. Poles were illiterate morons and didn't read Mein Kampf? They knew nothing about Lebensraum?

Did Your principale Stalin know about ?? Finally who wrote down pact with Main Kampf writer before the war & acted 17.09.39?? Or might Stalin & Molotow were polish ??

Are you sure it actually wasn't Poland who won the war of 1939?

Without Your agression ?? Who knows ??

noble Polish

Is that what You hate most in us ??

[Rarog]

Did Your principale Stalin know about ?? Finally who wrote down pact with Main Kampf writer before the war & acted 17.09.39?? Or might Stalin & Molotow were polish ??

How it's related to the fact that Poles didn't fight against the Germans as they thought that Germans were "civilized"?

Without Your agression ?? Who knows ??

Maybe only the Polish government,which run away on the 5th day of war...

Is that what You hate most in us ??

it's laughable...