I am doing a little research about the Battle of Punta Stilo (Action off Calabria) of 9 July 1940.
I would like if anybody can provide me detailed info about the positions of the CLs of the 7th Squadron during the engagement of 15:15/15:31 with the CLs of the VIII and IV Italian Cruiser Divisions.
I know that the Neptune was the first of the line at the beginning, but was then (certainly before 15:23) surpassed by the Liverpool, that became the new first ship. Meanwhile which were the positions of the Orion and of the Sydney? And did the Liverpool and Neptune change position again?
First cruisers engagement in the Battle of Punta Stilo
In regards to the very successful operations of HMAS Sydney you can find detailed information on the Australia War Memorial web site. Type in awm on the Google search machine and it will lead you there. The AWM holds a very large and comprehensive photo and history archive not only on Australia but on all recent conflicts (1850's onwards). These are available on the net, free of course.
I suppose it depends how you define beginning.
In "The Naval War in the Mediterranean 1940-43" by J.Greene & A.Massignani they show Liverpool leading followed by Neptune, Orion & Sydney at around 15:00hrs. They then show in a later map, that the British ships turned to port (closing the distance to the Italians) at around 15:12, in which by making this manuvere the posistions are reversed, and Sydney leading the line.
Andy H
In "The Naval War in the Mediterranean 1940-43" by J.Greene & A.Massignani they show Liverpool leading followed by Neptune, Orion & Sydney at around 15:00hrs. They then show in a later map, that the British ships turned to port (closing the distance to the Italians) at around 15:12, in which by making this manuvere the posistions are reversed, and Sydney leading the line.
Andy H
As said by the Romans: "quot homines, tot sententiae" (more or less: "there are as many opinions as men"). Massignani's and Green's reconstruction is different from both the ones I have read:
- E. Cernuschi in "I sette minuti di Punta Stilo" describes as I have written in my first post.
- F. Mattesini in "La battaglia di Punta Stilo", page 70, doesn't even describe the positions of British CLs, he just tells their names, during his description of the action, in this order: Orion, Neptune, Sydney, Liverpool.
Moreover the British manouvre of 15:12 is shown, in the maps provided by both the authors, as not changing the relative positions of the CLs within their formation (see the four ships in the lower right area of the image below).
I am a bit puzzled.
- E. Cernuschi in "I sette minuti di Punta Stilo" describes as I have written in my first post.
- F. Mattesini in "La battaglia di Punta Stilo", page 70, doesn't even describe the positions of British CLs, he just tells their names, during his description of the action, in this order: Orion, Neptune, Sydney, Liverpool.
Moreover the British manouvre of 15:12 is shown, in the maps provided by both the authors, as not changing the relative positions of the CLs within their formation (see the four ships in the lower right area of the image below).
I am a bit puzzled.
- Attachments
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- Punta Stilo.jpg (28.33 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
Hi
The picture I have is different. Sorry cant post it I'm inept with my scanner
Basically it shows the 4 cruisers in line ahead (Though unmarked I'm presuming that there as was at around 15:00) then at 15:12 they turn to port, the lead ship first, then the second turns to port some small distance from where the first did and so on, so that the ships are reversed.
Andy H
The picture I have is different. Sorry cant post it I'm inept with my scanner
Basically it shows the 4 cruisers in line ahead (Though unmarked I'm presuming that there as was at around 15:00) then at 15:12 they turn to port, the lead ship first, then the second turns to port some small distance from where the first did and so on, so that the ships are reversed.
Andy H
The bottom map shown on this website is from Admiral Cunningham's book "A Sailors Odessey". That shows the ships in a different order again.
I'll get this book next week at see if there's anything within the text that might help
http://www.regiamarina.net/battles/puntastilo/maps.htm
Andy H
I'll get this book next week at see if there's anything within the text that might help
http://www.regiamarina.net/battles/puntastilo/maps.htm
Andy H
Andy H, thank you for having pointed out that map; I knew it, but I forgot to comment it.
If you look it carefully, you'll see that it shows the positions of the 7th Sq. before it closed the distances at 15:12 (and in fact the hour written near it is "3 p.m."), but the Liverpool was the second ship before 15:12 (certainly the Neptune was the first at 15:08, when it sighted the two Italian CLs of the VIII Div.: Duca degli Abruzzi and Garibaldi), and became the first only during the fighting.
Because of this facts (the difference of time, at least 15 minutes, and the inconsistency of the position of the Liverpool and Neptune) I wasn't 100% sure that the position of the Orion and Sydney was the same as shown in that map during the following action and that they kept the same position during the whole fire action.
If you look it carefully, you'll see that it shows the positions of the 7th Sq. before it closed the distances at 15:12 (and in fact the hour written near it is "3 p.m."), but the Liverpool was the second ship before 15:12 (certainly the Neptune was the first at 15:08, when it sighted the two Italian CLs of the VIII Div.: Duca degli Abruzzi and Garibaldi), and became the first only during the fighting.
Because of this facts (the difference of time, at least 15 minutes, and the inconsistency of the position of the Liverpool and Neptune) I wasn't 100% sure that the position of the Orion and Sydney was the same as shown in that map during the following action and that they kept the same position during the whole fire action.
Well Cunningham's book shed's no definative light on this through its narrative.
"Between 2.52 and 3pm the Orion & Neptune (Which tends to suggest there were at the front-My opinion) sighted enemy destroyers & cruisers"......."At 8 minutes past 3, Neptune's captain sighted the Italian heavy"......."6 minutes later Tovey's cruisers opened fire"
"Between 2.52 and 3pm the Orion & Neptune (Which tends to suggest there were at the front-My opinion) sighted enemy destroyers & cruisers"......."At 8 minutes past 3, Neptune's captain sighted the Italian heavy"......."6 minutes later Tovey's cruisers opened fire"
Thank you for your additional info. 
If the Orion and Neptune had been the first and second ships of the line the list provided by Mattesini would be correct, but the time (14:52) is well before the engagement.
The info about the sighting (by the way, I see there is the word "heavy", did it mean "heavy cruisers"? if so it would be wrong: VIII and IV Divisions had only light cruisers, armed with 152 mm guns) made by the Neptune is the same of Cernuschi's book, but doesn't tell what was Neptune's position in that moment (nor during the action).
If the Orion and Neptune had been the first and second ships of the line the list provided by Mattesini would be correct, but the time (14:52) is well before the engagement.
The info about the sighting (by the way, I see there is the word "heavy", did it mean "heavy cruisers"? if so it would be wrong: VIII and IV Divisions had only light cruisers, armed with 152 mm guns) made by the Neptune is the same of Cernuschi's book, but doesn't tell what was Neptune's position in that moment (nor during the action).
it should have read "heavy ships" because it goes on to state that the Neptune sent the signal "Enemy Battle Fleet in sight", which I think means BB's.
I'm not sure if Vice Admiral Tovey (Co 7th Cruiser Squadron) has any memoirs but I'll have a dig around. One would imagine that such details would be recounted here if no where else
Andy H
Abu El Banat
I'm not sure if Vice Admiral Tovey (Co 7th Cruiser Squadron) has any memoirs but I'll have a dig around. One would imagine that such details would be recounted here if no where else
Andy H
Abu El Banat