SS-Christians

[panzermannss]

Were there any SS Christians or were they all Christians, and if they were not Christians, what were they? Thanks!!!

[HaEn]

Were there any SS Christians or were they all Christians, and if they were not Christians, what were they? Thanks!!!

One could be and even would alowed to go to church if it happened to fit with the schedule. Most were listed as: "Gottesgelaubich" ( God believing) HN.

[panzermannss]

Ok thanks!!!

[Kephra]

From: "The Secret King: Karl Maria Wiligut - Himmler's Lord of the Runes. The Real Documents of Nazi Occultism (Translated by Stephen E. Flowers, Ph.D.; edited by Michael Moynihan)
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INTRODUCTION

I. The Wiligut Mystery


The written works of Karl Maria Wiligut - also known as Lobesam, Jarl Widar, and Karl Maria Weisthor - are mysterious documents. It would be extremely difficult to understand them without a few words of introduction to provide some context for the often ineffable contents of his work. Wiligut is in some ways unique as an esoteric writer. For example, he wrote relatively little (in comparison to his predecessor Guido von List) and published even less (much of his work remains in archives). A good deal of his published material is in the form of rhyming lines of lore, frequently illustrated or demonstrated with ideograms or runes. He also bears a distinction as the best known esotericist to have had an official rank in the SS and to have produced esoteric work for Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. Wiligut's work is thus the closest thing we have to primary and objective data for any of the often highly mythologized notions of "Nazi occultism."

With all of these distinguishing factors, Wiligut was also largely a product of the Zeitgeist governing his time and the influences that preceded him. The purpose of this introduction is to provide a general biography of Wiligut along with a systematic discussion of his esoteric ideology, its legacy, and possible influences on his tradition as a whole.

Wiligut is an eternally obscure man. He was a shadowy figure in early 20th century Austria, published his ideas only in little-known journals in the 1930s, and became a member of Himmler's SS in 1933 where he produced what amounted to private reports for his chief. His exact place in - and impact upon - the occult culture of early 20th century Germany is therefore difficult to assess.

[...]

Release and Service in the SS (1927-1939)

[...]



In the spring of that year [1935; Anm. Kephra], Wiligut was moved from Munich to Berlin, set up in his own villa at Kaspar Theyss Str.33, and made a part of Himmler's personal staff. Although "Weisthor's" work was in some respects similar to that of the Ahnenerbe (the SS department concerned with research into ancient Germanic ancestral/cultural history, established in the summer of 1935), his work was essentially seperate from that office. Wiligut worked for Himmler personally, whereas the Ahnenerbe was part of a larger structure subject to more objective academic standards.

Important areas in which Wiligut worked for Himmler included his conceptualization of the Wewelsburg castle as the "center of the world"; the design of the SS-ring; creation of various rituals and design of ritual objects to be used in SS ceremonies; and a steady stream of reports on esoteric matters of theology, history and cosmology issued for the most part privately to Himmler.



The Wewelsburg castle is a 17th century structure located near Büren in Westphalia. Himmlers first viewed the castle in 1933 while on a campaign trip of the Party. It is uncertain as to whether Wiligut accompanied him on this trip; however, it is certain that the colonel influenced him greatly on the conceptualization of the castle as a world-wide headquarters for an order of knights - the SS. (Hülser 1982: 33, 40) Shortly after the Wewelsburg was transferred to the SS, it became the headquarters of the Gesellschaft zur Förderung und Pflege deutscher Kulturdenkmäler (Society for the Promotion and Care of German Cultural Monuments) and was subsequently transformed into a "Nordic academy" for the ideological education - or initiation - of SS leaders. It was increasingly conceptualized as an Order-Castle (Ordensburg) and was remodeled to become the ritual space for ceremonies particular to Himmler's elite circle within the SS.

Central to this cult was the northern tower of the castle. The lowest space in this tower, the vault, came to be referred to as the "Walhalla" - the Hall of the Slain.



Above this vault is the colonnade chamber, on the floor of which is emblazoned the most distinctive single symbol of the Wewelsburg:



The colonnade hall was to become the central ritual chamber of the order of SS knights which Himmler and Wiligut envisioned. This castle was to be the ultimate command center for cultural as well as military campaigns for the spread of a new Aryan empire, and, in the conception of Himmler and Wiligut, a bulwark against the invading "subhumans" from the east - the Bolsheviks.

The Wewelsburg became a great repository for all kinds of SS traditions, rituals and objects. At the end of the war, as American troops approached the region, the castle was blown up on 31 March 1945 by SS-men acting on orders from Himmler. Three days later American troops moved in and secured the site. As to what happened to much of the material and documents originally housed in the Ordensburg, there are three answers: some must have been removed before the detonation of the building; some of it was looted by locals of the nearby village in the three days between the detonation and the arrival of the Americans; and the rest was looted by American soldiers.

The most important cult-object of the SS is the "death's head ring" [Totenkopfring]. Wiligut is widely credited with its design. (Hunger 1985: 164)





The text of a document which was presented the SS-men with the ring reads:
_____________________________________________________________

I bestow upon you the Totenkopfring-SS.

It is:

A sign of our loyalty to the Führer, our unwavering obedience to our superiors and our unshakable solidarity and comradery.

The death's head is an admonition to be prepared at any time to risk our own individual lives for the life of the collective whole.

The runes opposite the death's head are holy signs from our past, with which we have been newly reconnected through the philosophy of National Socialism.

The two Sig-Runes symbolize the name of our protection-squad [Schutzstaffel].

The Swastika and Hagall-Rune are to keep our attention on our unshakable faith in the victory of our philosophy.

The ring is crowned all around with oak-leaves, the leaves of the old German tree.

This ring may not be sold, and is not allowed to be transferred to others.

Upon your withdrawl from the SS or from life, this ring is to be returned to the Reichsführer-SS.

Copies and imitations are punishable by law and you are to protect it from same.

Wear the ring with honor!

Heinrich Himmler

_____________________________________________________________

According to Hüser (1982: 66-67), the rings of the SS-men who died in battle were stored in a special place in the Walhalla; those of SS-men who departed under other circumstances were generally melted down. Hüser also reports that the store of "hundreds" of rings, which had resisted the explosion and fire, as well as local efforts to loot the castle, was eventually looted by American soldiers.





It also seems that Wiligut was instrumental in creating SS-rituals and designing ceremonial objects to be used in the performance of such rituals. A complete transcript has been uncovered in SS archives for a name-giving rite that Wiligut conducted for the newborn son of SS officer Karl Wolff, and at which Himmler himself was also present. [see http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... ht=wiligut - Anm. Kephra]

[...]



Much of the ritual design seems to have centered on marriage ceremonies for SS-men and their brides. There was a eugenic aspect to these ceremonies in that leading SS-men and their brides had to demonstrate their Aryan heritage by tracing it back at least to 1750.

One of the most important, and mysterious, aspects of Wiligut's operative "magical" work came in form of the [...] enigmatic Halgarita-Sprüche (Halgarita-Sayings), which were mantras from the Wiligut-tradition intended to enhance ancestral memory and facilitate the reemergence of the Irminist faith.

[...]

Throughout the years 1933-1939, Wiligut produced a number of reports for Himmler on a variety of topics relevant to esoteric religion, theology, history, and even political policy. One document outlines Wiligut's ideas on the necessity of re-confiscating properties appropriated by the Church from indigenous followers of the ancient faith. (Hüser 1982: 205)

During these years of high activity, Wiligut was already an elderly man in his late sixties and early seventies. His health and general level of energy was apparently not wellsuited to the hectic pace at the center of the German National Socialist bureaucracy, so he was "treated" with drugs by SS physicians. It seems that these drugs had the effect of causing certain personality changes, including the colonel's increasing dependance on tobacco and alcohol.

[...]


III. Wiligut's Ideology

Exept in the broades outlines it is difficult to determine the exact contents of the Wiligut-tradition beyond what he himself wrote. Key elements in the structure of Wiligut's teachings are his ideas on theology (e.g., the Gôt / Gotos conceptions he explores in his poetry) and history, and the position of his family tradition in that history, as well as a specific way to understand the Runes. It is clear, however, that he was either developing these ideas over time, or he only chose to reveal them gradually.

The Secret Theology

Although there was no sign of this in the early writings of Wiligut, other than perhaps his use of what appeared to be orthodox Christianity sentiment in his poetry, Wiligut was eventually to reveal that the original religion of the Germanic peoples was not "Wotanism" but something he identified as "Irmin-Kristianity." In the structure of this he is following an idea expressed by Guido von List who saw "Armanism" (cognate to Irminism) as the esoteric predecessor and background to the more exoteric "Wuotanism". The difference is that List saw Armanism and Woutanism as working cooperatively in history as developmental models, where Wiligut saw an ancestral feud and discord between "Irminist-Kristianity" and "Wotanism" embodied all those heathen theological and mythological aspects from the Edda and other Old Norse sources which seemed "foreign" or "disgusting" to him. These sentiments are made clear in "Whispering of Gotos - Rune Knowledge". Although the contrast between Wotanism and Irminism had been expressed before, it had never been put in quite such antagonistic terms. The effort to re-mythologize Christianity as an "Aryan religion" enjoyed a good reception among many National Socialists of Wiligut's day.

[...]

The Secret History

[...]

Many of the events in this secret history are drawn from Icelandic sagas and German history; however, the dates ascribed to these events are projected back in time to staggering proportions. This kind of esoteric chronology owes at least something to the Theosophical techings of H.P. Blavatsky especially as published in Vol.II of her Secret Doctrine.

Dominant themes in the Wiligut-tradition of esoteric history include the development of branches of humanity from the "children of light" (Kymris) and the "children of stone"; the conflict between the Irmin-Kristians (of the Asa-Uana-clan) and the Wotanists; the importance of Goslar and the Harz mountain region to the meta-history, and the key role played by a culture hero named Teut, whom Mund compares to the Greek Hermes and the Egyptian Thoth.

This meta-history, which still awaits a final synthesis and exposition, is most likely to interpreted in a useful way as a mythic allegory for the development of consciousness in humanity over time.

[...]

Wiligut's Runology

[...]

Wiligut's own most eleborate and comprehensive treatment of his personal runology comes in the "Whispering of Gotos -- Rune-Knowlege" (1934). Clearly Wiligut is not interested in runological data gleaned from Old Norse and Old English sources - these are, for him, decadent forms. His runology is based on an underlying central concept of the cosmic circulation of Spirit-Energy-Matter. In this Wiligut sees the cosmos as dynamic but unchanging. It continuously follows the same laws. Change is the apperance of the world to humans who are at different stages of their development and who therefore see the world as if it were in constant flux. So for Wiligut runology was primarily the study of this esoteric system of cosmic circulation, which Runic shapes encoded.

[...]

Essential to the understanding of Wiligut's runology is the concept of two different types of circulation - a vertical one and a horizontal one - which intersect at a central point. The horizontal circulation is the Material one, which provides the impulse toward form and toward life. This is also called the tel-Rune and is seen as being feminine and belonging to the Earth Mother. The vertical circulation is a Spiritual one, and provides the creative principle.

Where these two kinds of circulation intersect there arises consciousness, form and life, and there is an inception of a Material Being of the Spirit, or germination of unity, reperesented by the Rune Not. This sign indicates a turning of Need.

The so-called "Irmin-cross" used by Wiligut illustrates, in the form of a four-poled model, the process in another way:


..........SPIRIT
.................I
.................I
MATTER--+--ENERGY
.................I
.................I
.......TURNING

The key lies in the ability of the downward circulation along the vertical pole to be reversed (wended) so that it can be made to rise up again.

Wiligut's chief ideological contribution lies in his forceful and tradition-bound presentation of concepts surrounding a hidden history and his conception of the Runes as descriptions of circulations of various kinds of energy. His ideas seem all the more compelling to some because of the degree to which so many of his contemporaries seem to have been influenced by what he said, or how he said it. The enigma which was Wiligut is probably so closely linked to his personal presence that we may never be able to understand his ideas fully through the written word alone.

[...]

V. Conclusion

A final and comprehensive assessment of an individual such as Karl Maria Wiligut is difficult. This difficulty arises from the tension between the myth of the man and his "objective reality". But this very formulation implies a dichotomy which may have no legitimacy. We can look at the importance of the individual, and we can look at the meaning of his ideas as a way to understand his place in history.

As an individual, Wiligut is a compelling study in the importance of esotericists in the National Socialist state. Much has been made over the past thirty or more years about the "occult roots of Nazism". Such studies can perhaps show how similar ideas were held by National Socialist leaders and pre- and non-National Socialist "occultists". But these similarities can and should generally be ascribed to the fact that National Socialist leaders and the so called "occultists" of the day shared a common cultural matrix and were part of the same Zeitgeist. Wiligut is the most compelling link between the sometimes shadowy world of early 20th century esoteric circles in Germany and Austria and the National Socialist state. Wiligut can be counted as being a member of the esoteric-nationalist milieu from the beginning of the century, although his role appears to have been a minor one until the early 1920s. But in Wiligut we see one of these "shadowy" individuals enter directly into an official position of power in the National Socialist regime. He played an important role in conceptualizing and designing certain esoteric aims and practices of Himmler's elite circle within the SS, and this factor alone makes Wiligut a fascinating and unique study.

Wiligut's ideas are known to us from three separate sources:

1) His own writings
2) The writing of his students
3) Oral reports of his students

[...]

Wiligut's tradition seems to rest on three features: his view of esoteric history; an esoteric linguistic code; and the "Runic key" based on the flow of Matter-Energy-Spirit described by the Drehauge ("Rotating Eye"). His tradition's view of history indicates that the original Germans were monotheistic Irmin-Kristians and the sources for Germanic religion relied upon academic science were later decadent documents influenced by southern, non-Germanic, Christianity. What seems most likely here is that Wiligut was recultant to give up many of the sentiments of orthodox Christianity and he refused to acknowledge what he saw as the "barbarism" of his ancestors. Wiligut's esoteric linguistic code is identical in spirit with that of Guido von List, and it seems an inescapable conclusion that Wiligut derived much of his ideology regarding sacred sounds and syllables from the writings List. More original appears to be his theory about the interactions of Matter-Energy-Spirit in the production of consciousness. This model is, even according to his students, the key to Wiligut's conceptual world.

[...]

But perhaps the most remarkable thing about Wiligut is the way his tradition was able to influence others around him in the virtual absence of a great edifice of written material. His largely oral method for the transmission of his tradition to a small body of students, who for the most part remained fanatically loyal to him and his teachings, is the root of a great mystery about the person of Karl Maria Wiligut. The fact that he - an elderly veteran of World War I - was also able to count among his students and devotees one of the most powerful and ruthless individuals of the 20th century - Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler - again must be taken into account when reckoning the measure of this particular man.
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Greetings!
Kephra

[M*A*S*H]

Very interesting info Kephra. I will have to read it again, to make sure I haven't missed anything. Thanks

[Romulus]

panzermannss, Seems like 500 years ago now... wonder if he still reads these boards.

[Kephra]

Were there any SS Christians or were they all Christians, and if they were not Christians, what were they? Confused Thanks!!!

In the appendix of the book - from which I quoted above - is this interesting article from the Grandmaster of the Armanenorden, which practices germanic völkish-neopagan/heathen rituals in the line of teachings going back to Guido von List. It was written 1982.

To give you an idea, how these people look like:


Sommersonnnenwende 1983 Scharzfeld Steinkirche
http://www.rabenclan.de/ariosophiepr_ge ... emenyi.htm

This photo is from 1983. The two guys in black suit are wearing the ritual clothing of the Armanen.

Ok. Here the first part of the article about the realms "beyond Castle Wolfenstein"...

source"The Secret King: Karl Maria Wiligut - Himmler's Lord of the Runes. The Real Documents of Nazi Occultism." (Translated by Stephen E. Flowers, Ph.D.; edited by Michael Moynihan)

APPENDIX D

The Wiligut Saga

by Adolf Schleipfer

[Irminsul, No. 5, 1982]

As announced in our book listing of April 1982, we are now taking a position on the traditions of Karl Maria Wiligut in the book by R. Mund, Der Rasputin Himmlers.
The degree to which the new Heimdall-Age is in ascendancy can be clearly seen in that long forgotten wisdom and long-forgotten healing methods -- the magical knowledge of traditional peoples -- are being increasingly brought to light and are being made accessible to people today in more and more frequent publications, books, lectures and by a steadily increasing number of new adherents to this old wisdom.
Those who observe this development attentively, and who see more than just the darker side of our changing times, must recognize that an entirely new seed has been growing among the modernized exploitive and enslaving ideological systems -- a seed which will sooner or later bring these systems to an end -- without it beeing necessary to expect a world-war or some other catastrophe of great proportions in order to bring about these basic changes.
However, nature makes no leaps, and therefore it is with a "gentle violence" that the new springtime of peoples will arive.
In this context it is not at all that surprising that in the Germanic lands, which had to suffer everything that peoples have had to suffer since the beginning of written history, it would still be possible to discover traditions, the existence of which no one would have dared thought of given the endless and exceedingly thorough persecution of traditional Germanic culture by the church and other powers.
But this miracle is a fact, and so the publication of these traditions in book-form could only appear in our time -- and not any earlier for obvious cosmic reasons. This despite the fact that the traditions of Wiligut were known in small circles since the 1930s.
Of course, proof of the authenticity -- in the academic sense -- of the Wiligut-traditions will hardly be found, as this uncertainty lies in the nature of the material and so there will certainly be a tug-of-war over these traditions similar to that surrounding the Ura-Linda Chronik. {The Ura Linda Book is an alleged "ancient Friesian chronicle" which Prof. Herman Wirth published in 1933, to much controversy.}
With the publication of these long-hidden traditions of our own forebears not only are fundamental traditions placed in our hands once again -- which can be a welcome complement to what has been discovered previously -- but with these also come age-old difficulties and fateful entanglements. At least superficially these traditions had disappeared from the consciousness of white people, and therefore fulfilled the function of what is referred to in psychology as a so-called "repression". For the revelation of the traditions of Karl Maria Wiligut causes us to awaken to an awareness in which we see all the suffering we have endured in our history in a completely new light and to become aware once more of the range of these discovery.
For who is not able to recognize that for many centuries, and even millennia, the dark powers of a dubious, demonic opposing force, a force which always has a new shape, has always suppressed, enslaved, expoited, disenfranchised, and finally, slowly but surely (or immediately) imprisoned, murdered, burned or in some other way killed the best and most noble of our white people?
Who will not have noticed that right up to today, though improving over the centuries, whatever was right, natural, wholesome and best for our people was always impeded, made to appear ridiculous or condemned to stagnation and that instead of this whatever was damaging to the people, destructive, mean, insidious, gruesome -- in short, evil -- has had its way in an almost methodical fashion?
How many have, as a result of the recognition of these facts, been devasted by grief, and lost their faith in a divine power or in justice, when they saw how -- day-by-day, years, decades and centuries passed by without the truly noble forces even being able to maintain themselves much less have any authority over the flood of the minions of darkness? Who wouldn't doubt such a recognition if he didn't know the reason for it? And now suddenly in the final phase of the Twilight of the Gods, only at the new dawn of the Gods, does it become obvious what the cause of all that unbearable suffering was -- suffering the noble one always has to bear during the nearly endless ages of time encompassing his process of sacrifice.
In the secret, direct traditions of the one who bore knowledge of the Wiligut-clan, and shortly before the disappearance of these traditions along with the last of those who bore them directly, Karl Maria Wiligut, this knowledge was written down in its essential features by some of his students and so this now remains at our disposal in a few fundamental parts.
With all this, however, there arises an uncontrolled resistance, the unyielding defiance of which is clear, which had been from the most distant past ages -- according to the tradition -- plotted against the plan that had ushered in all this suffering. This resistance is the "KRISTUR-PLAN", as it is called in the Wiligut-tradition, and its adherents are the "Irminen". The defiant opponents of this plan of salvation were the "WOTANISTS", the spiritual successors of whom we Armanen feel ourselves to be.
So, listed in order, these are the things which concern us in the Wiligut Saga as the transmitter of this knowledge, Mund, presents it:
The most conspicuous things in the Wiligut-tradition for us ARMANEN are without doubt:

1) The statement that there was, from the inception of human development, some kind of "Kristianity", the purpose of which was to improve the breeding of pre-human forms (the so-called "children of stone") by means of methodically crossing them with high, still subtle bodied, children of light. Over millenia this inflicted a tremendous amount of suffering and sacrifices on those children of light. These sacrifices were supposedly made out of a kind of pre-Christian charity or altruism.

2) Against all this, and this is the more important statement, the Wotanists -- thought to be among the children of light -- defended themselves.

Before even the outline of this information can be understood, one first has to know that all esoteric traditions (not just those of Wiligut, but also for example the "Secret Doctrine" transmitted from the Himalayas by H. P. Blavatsky, or the Anthroposophy of Rudolf Steiner) in no way confirm the Darwinian theory of human evolution, but rather see that mankind is gradually evolved from higher worlds of rarified material into corporeality in the current sense. This is true even if it also means that there was a physical evolution of pre-humans "from below upwards", which at some point were connected to the entities of rarified material "from above". In addition there is the Platonic doctrine (see "The Symposium") of the original twin-nature of the pre-human races, which only later split into the two sexes.
Only those who are familiar with this context can make anything of the tradition of Wiligut. Therefore this is offered by way of introduction.

Briefly summarized, it can be said of the Wiligut-tradition that one of its most important criteria is that there was --according to this tradition -- a primordial Kristendom with a plan for human elevation or evolution. (This is differentiated from Christendom, which came about millenia later, by being spelled with a "K".) The representatives of this were called the "Irmin-faithful" while those who were against this plan of cross-breeding were called "Wotanists."
A situation which, at last superficially, has not changed much right up to today! For the basic criteria of K(Ch)ristianity, with or without the "K" or "Ch", and Wotanism have remained the same. K(Ch)ristianity is a salvation-religion, i.e., a religion which seeks to shorten the path through matter or the Earthly life. In the case at hand, this is by means of shortening the natural period of evolution of the stone-people in order to they might once more ascend to the "higher plane" as quickly as possible. In contrast, Wotanism is, like all natural religions, a religion of the joy of creation, which recognized that creation, and above all our Earth, is no "veil of tears" -- nor should it be. The body is not the dungeon of the spirit, but rather is something created by divinity for its own possibilities and therefore for all our happiness and joy of existence. Therefore in this regard any "shortening of the way" in the evolution of the cosmos or humanity loses its meaning!
Wether we delve into the depths of the Wiligut-tradition or concern ourselves with the Christianity of millennia later, in both cases we are confronted by a salvation-religion, which we Wotanists, as adherents of the "joy of creation", must reject.

But let's return to Wiligut, the bearer of tradition. The fact that his pronouncements reach back into the otherwise unwritten history of our own race, and in this regard are of great importance, should not dissuade us from the realization that Wiligut himself is an "Irmine" (and therefore a Kristian). That is, his pronouncements are all made from the perspective of a Kristian, who, then as now, sees in Wotanism an opponent or enemy!
We (the leadership of the Armanen Orden) had for years already been aware of these traditions in a more extensive body of writings -- as they are given in exerpts in the Mund book -- and according to an appendix in that book are supposed to be published in a second work. {This second book was never published by Mund, who has since died.} This also includes that which is known about Herr Ernst Lauterer (described as "Tarnhari" in the writings of Guido von List), the bearer of wisdom of the Wotanist-tradition. There, for example, Herr Günter Krichhoff, who knew both Wiligut and Lauterer, writes that through intrigue Wiligut had put Herr Lauterer in a concentration camp when Wiligut accused him of being an English agent because he had family members in England. Her Mund does not mention any of this in his book, through he does quote Kirchhoff.

All this could make one uneasy once one realizes that Rudolf Hess -- according to his own story -- for his flight to England for the purpose of preventing war between England and Germany was likewise relying on noble circles in England. But he was betrayed before he could reach these circles and fell into the hands of Churchill's opposition party or his secret service, whereupon his assignment was thwarted. It is possible that there were connections between this English nobility and "Lauterer von Raidenstein", especially if one considers that it was precisely Hess who might be seen as the protector of esoteric interests in the Third Reich. After his failed flight to England, in any event, astrologers were imprisoned and the natural health movement was stifled (at the instigation of the pharmaceutical industry, which was the only earner of foreign exchange after the beginning of the war) because the one who had protected them earlier was now missing.

Watever the case might have been it is certain that Wiligut, the Kristian, and Ernst Lauterer, the Wotanist, were ancestral enemies for reasons made clear in the tradition. What we would like to maintain in all this is that when we evaluate the Wiligut-Irminic tradition we must in every instance keep in mind that the Wotanists, with whom we obviously at least feel orginally related due to shared common concepts, are seen as enemies and that their motivations and actions are only shown superficially and their ways of acting are in every case not viewed sympathetically, but are evaluated in a hostile manner.
It is also rather disturbing that according to this tradition the first-born son of the Wiliguts, of this thoroughly patriarchal clan in which the father ruled, that precisely this father could find no other name for his oldest son, the future bearer of the tradition, than "Karl Maria". This is perhaps the most Catholic association that could be. Furthermore (according to page 15 of the book) seven members of the clan were killed by Karl the Saxon-slayer. In addition to this the name of the Virgin Mary was given, which in typical Catholic circles is given by parents as a special reference to their Catholic belief! Conspicuous elements such as these are not to be recommended as "concealment" even in the contemporary enviroment.

Whatever the case with that may be, Armanen and other non-Christians (with or without K or CH) should, when studying the Wiligut Saga, take notice that Christianity, with or without K or Ch, is not simply a scion of Judaism that can be disregarded by reason of its being a foreign religion (and a forced one besides). This has been known to the AO leadership for a long time. More importantly we have already previously established that the more in-depth researcher can find another layer beneath the oriental surface, once the Christian veneer has been peeled back. However, in order to prevent as much confusion as possible we have avoided public discussion of the religious and historical facts surrounding K(Ch)ristianity. This is because -- as made obvious here -- even a Christianity founded on our "own" basis is irrelevant to our natural religion we call Wotanism. Furthermore, we must proceed from the idea that Germanic and Celtic people who have been educated in Christianity from childhood act in the best interests of their own spiritual healing -- i.e., of an open-minded evaluation of the facts -- only when they concern themselves exclusively with the non-K(Ch)ristian side of our traditions, as a way to make them spiritually and emotionally free and open-minded enough to study K(Ch)ristianity, which we, as Wotanists, reject anyway. In any case we think it makes more sense to spread our own Wotanist teachings which are comparatively -- as we see it -- more attractive, than to have to come to terms with other conceptualizations.
That does not mean that we in any way discount the Wiligut-tradition as an essential part of our development if and when it corresponds to the facts. But it does mean that they do not change the fact that we wish to make our religious way as WOTANISTS and not as IRMIN-KRISTIANS!
...

to be continued...

Grüße!
Kephra

[Kephra]

An additional word on Mund's interpretation that out old master, Guido von List, was influenced by Wiligut's teachings. These would not only relate to the Kristur-Plan, but also provide general indications concerning cosmic structures, Germanic provincial administration, etc. - all of which are certainly worthwhile even if one rejects the Kristur-Plan. In this regard it can not be excluded with certainty that List could have made use of esoteric Germanic traditions held in common with Wiligut and there would be no reason not to acknowledge these if it were the case, but it is actually the case that List never mentions Wiligut, but does acknowledge "TARNHARI", i.e., Ernst Lauterer, who made himself known to our old master, Guido von List, as the bearer of WOTANIC wisdom and as a direct descendant of the Volsungs, i.e., the clan of WODAN.
In the List biography by J. Balzil we can read on page 146 {Balzil (1917)}:

"In just this year [1911] another experience was undergone by the then already 64-year-old researcher which is probably unique in our time. For a long time he had, by reason of his findings and results of his research, suspected that today there must still exist a group of Armanen with its origin in ancient times; but he had been unable to confirm traces of them anywhere in history, no matter how often he thought he had found them. Now, however, this group of Armanen had revealed itself to him, and their princely sovereign wrote to Herr Guido von List on 11 November 1911 that it was: "...secret inherited memory which allowed him his findings. These correspond perfectly with the tribal traditions of the Volsungs (actually tribally articulated Armanendom) where-by he (i.e., the exalted Tarnhari) -- based on an ancient clanic law, which states that the clan has to reveal itself to the one who, without knowing of the existence of the clan, makes information public about Aryo-Germanic prehistory which corresponds to their tribal tradition -- made himself known to Herr Guido von List. This was the first time this had happened in more than threethousand years."

Additionally, Ernst Lauterer (Tarnhari) provided quite convincing proof of his heritage in his book Aus den Traditionen der Laf-tar-ar-Sippe (From the Traditions of the Laf-tar-ar Clan), which was at that time distriputed within a narrow circle of friends.
It is therefore much more likely that List supplemented his inherited memory though contact with Tarnhari.
But when on page 58 Mund quotes E. Gustafson in Hagal 7 (1934):

We know now that List did not envision his knowledge out of the Runes during his blindness, but rather that he honestly, and to the best of his knowledge, combined the tradition of several families into one unified form of Germanic religion, science and constitutional law in the wisest sense. We know that the majority of his work is good and faultless, but that he also represented some things in a faulty manner and that especially his Wotanic attitude is incorrect. (Our emphasis)

He certainly does this only with the intention of proving an influence on List by Wiligut, but in doing this overlooks how List is slandered in these expositions.
Whoever can even marginally form an estimation of List, or possesses any knowledge of humanity at all, can clearly see that List is not induldging in any mystification here, but that he really had a visionary inherited memory -- and most especially during his period of temporary blindness -- and from this he was able to obtain information. In [his correspondence] List himself tells us that the Tarnhari-clan only approached him because he came to this knowledge based on his own inherited memory. List died in 1919, otherwise he would certainly have had something to say to this rather frivolous Gustafson fifteen years later. If Gustafson had informed himself better it would have been clear to him that List could not have been "mistaken" especially with regard to Wotanism, because since he was actually writing about several clans which could have influenced him it would have been much more obvious that at least the Wotanist findings were confirmed by the Lauterer-clan. But Gustafson was a K(Ch?)ristian... and so it did not matter too much to slander a Wotanist, especially when one considers that salvation religion only exist because their followers can not, or do not want to, contemplate the logical conclusion of the plan of development, because if they did they would no langer be followers of a salvation-religion. Self-deception is moreover a prerequisite for membership in a salvation religion, no matter what its name might be. It's no wonder, then, that when it came to the matter of List, Gustafson didn't "think things out to their logical conclusion."
Besides it is not only stupid, but also revealing, when some later collaborator, who in the last analysis is so dependent on the results of the great teacher in such important fundamental questions, impugns an "error" to his master.
Additionally, Mund himself writes on page 68: "He (Wiligut) had ... his own runic key -- one different from that of Guido von List."

Above all what is overlooked is the fact that List establishes the DIVINE IMAGE OF WOTAN in his cosmological descriptions in his works: e.g.,

1) Das Geheimnis der Runen {The Secret of Runes, tran. S.E. Flowers (Rochester, VT: Destiny, 1988).

2) in his Religion der Ario-Germanen, and

3) in his Bilderschrift der Ario-Germanen

and its comprehensive and fundamental meaning in the Germanic cosmology and theogony. Moreover, in his more narrative or poetic works he continually demonstrates the intrinsic connection of Wodan with the Germanic worlds of soul and sendiment -- as later pointed out by Martin Ninck who sees in Wotan the original image of Germanic humanity itself. {Wodan und germanischer Schicksalsglaube.} (This psychological agreement between characteristics of Wotan with those of the Germanic people is also the most striking counter-evidence against all the "Kummer-Germanics", i.e., the followers of Bernhard Kummer et al., who are of the opinion that Wotan is a "foreign" divinity introduced into Germania at a later date.
In these works of List neither is there ever even a shadow of a doubt concerning the meaning of Wodan in the cosmic realm of Germanic religion. This certainty stands in stark contrast to the Wiligut-traditions, which see in Wotanism a form of religion which should be rejected, and one opposed to their "Irmin-faith" or Kristendom.
If List was not only schooled in these matters of the Wiligut-traditions, but was also even supposed to have made them part of the results of his own research, then it seems completely incomprehensible that List nowhere even in the slightest mentions these Wiligut-traditions, especially not the "Kristur-Plan"! Indeed, how can some sort collaboration between List and Wiligut be conceived of, when the latter was a decided opponent of Wotanism?
Though it can be seen in other writings not included in the book by Mund under discussion here, and certainly also from Wiligut's recognition of the two forms of religion, that Wiligut recognized Wotanism as a necessary, if disfavorable, part of Germanic religion, and in such a context collaboration with the Wotanist Guido von List is conceivable. But this would not explain why in his works and in his whole cosmology List completely ignored the weighty Wiligut-traditions surrounding the Kristur-Plan, especially as he was also supposed to have made use of the Wiligut-traditions. Naturally it is possible that as a Wotanist List did not much appreciate the Kristur-traditions just as Wotanism was not appreciated by those of Wiligut.

In contrast to the Wotanic cosmology which is completely self-contained and epistomologically complete as List left it to us, the Kristur-Plan works like a Trojan Horse within the enclosed walls of the Wotanic religion. This is enclosed not in the sense of an encapsulation which prevents further realization, but rather in the sense of a wholeness which requires no further augmentation. Anyway, fault is also to be found within the avilable segments of the tradition of students of Wiligut in that when it comes to reporting on Wotanic concerns this only occurs in the context of historical or temporal events and in connection with leading personalities in human history -- while the meaning of Wotan as ALLFATHER and cosmic God of Creation clearly indicated in the Listian cosmology and in commonly known Germanic mythology is not mentioned at all in the Wiligut-tradition!

After all this, a comparison of Listian discourse on Wotanism as a religious system and Wiligut's religious system indicates that there are no direct comparable correspondences, especially when it comes to cosmological and theological comparisons. An influence of Wiligut on List therefore appears questionable, at least in fundamental aspects. At least it can be said that List's conception of Wotanism is conditioned by fundamentally different knowledge from that of Wiligut's traditions, or at least those of his students.
The contradictions in the conception of the Gods and their meaning is, among other things, also indicated when, on page 150 of Mund's book, it is reported that Wiligut said: "The Germanics never had 'Gods' as they did in Rome. They knew only 'Gothari' and his realm of creation", and then again from the traditions of Wiligut, on page 161, we read: "...while the Kymris are said to have remained unified under the influence of the Wanic Goddess Freya thoughout ca. 144 000 years..." and somewhat further on "...which is traced back to the influence of the Asen." This apparent contradiction obviously requires an explanation: as every genealogist in Europe knows, even if they do not like to talk about it, the family trees of all old clans which go back before the Thirty-Years War clearly go back to "the GODS". However, as portrayed in Wiligut's tradition the Gods are the equivalent of the spiritual "Rulers" [Walter] and "Guides" [Lenker] which actually planned and conducted the history of mankind. One must not make the mistake of equating "intelligences with limited fields of activity in the cosmos", our GODS, and universal divinity. For even though all these Gods are split off from the universal divinity, they are still, in their own realms of existence, just as differentiated this divinity as each individual human being is, who is in turn a split-off from his respective God, and therefore in the final analysis he too is a small part of universal divinity! But these "divine split-offs" of Got, UR the ALLMOTHER, etc., as they might be called with reference to C.G. Jung's theory of archetypes, are actually our very own Gods, leaders of spiritual and divine hierarchy, which in the course of the condensation of spirit into matter (the basic plan of all creation in the universe) split themselves off from universal unity in order to devote themselves to separate duties in creation. These GODS are, however, also the "group souls" of various races, peoples and tribes and therefore humans descend from them. Every cult of the Gods is therefore also a cult of the ancestors. If Wiligut rejects the worship of the Gods, it is something like one were in a military hierarchy and were to refuse obedience to the lower-ranked leaders and to recognize the authority of only the highest ranking officers. So one should not be confused by such remarks.

Another apparently contradictory example of the same kind occurs when it is mentioned that Wiligut has "rejected magic". This, although all his spiritual activities -- just consider the Runic Prayer and its key -- are certainly magic of the purest sort. Such concepts are often interpreted in too much of a biased manner.

All in all, a rich abundance of intellectual and also spiritual material can be drawn from Mund's book, material with which at least those who are concerned with Germanic religion should be acquainted. That such previously undiscovered traditions of this kind exist at all, after all the ecclesiastic and other kinds of persecutions of the pre-Christian life of our forebears, is reason enough to be concerned with them, even if this means dealing with new difficulties. These difficulties cannot escaped without consequence -- assuming that the traditions of Wiligut are genuine.
If one follows the assertions of the Wiligut-tradition, one soon recognizes that Irmin-Kristianity and Wotanism represent polar forces within the consciousness of our ancestors. Of these one is not correct and the other wrong. Rather here we are dealing with laws and forces of human development which cannot be avoided and which therefore can only lead to a whole cosmology through their orderly opposition. But this does not concern itself, as we have outlined it, with any concepts about the things, but rather with the representation of the things themselves Regardless of this, it remains the unconditional assignment of the Wotanist in this plan of cosmic development to proceed on his own path of salvation and strive toward his goals. Of course, this process is never without contradictions and he can never wend his way "in peace" without being emotionally interfered with by the "Kristur-side".
From what we know of this state of affairs it has only recently become possible to understand the laws of mutually determined natural Necessity. This possibility is especially obvious in connection with the fact that, as regards its assignment relevant to the development of mankind, the Kristur-Plan can essentially be considered to have been accomplished, and with it the constant sacrifice by the noble and exalted for the elevation of the underdeveloped.
Of course, we will hardly find any proof of the authenticity of the traditions of Wiligut in any academic sense, as this is the nature of such things and nothing can really be expected.

Above all, however, it must be stated that the cosmic feminine element in the whole Wiligut-tradition is almost entirely lacking and this deficiency certainly makes itself felt on our earthly plane. Considering the rise of the feminine Age of the All-Mother, this deficiency will not allow K(Ch)ristian thought, of whatever sort, much latitude in the future.


Adolf Schleipfer
Grandmaster, Armanen Orden

So -

Were there any SS Christians or were they all Christians, and if they were not Christians, what were they?

Maybe we should ask what IS a Christian? But this is covered elswhere...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grüße!
Kephra

[Javier Acuña]

WOW

Thanks a lot for the info, Kephra, I bet it must have taken you quite a few minutes.

[Kephra]

I bet it must have taken you quite a few minutes.

Actually, it took me a year - just check the posting-dates. I have five CD-ROMS with orginal material scanned from Wiliguts private papers (but I don't have done it myself. It's from a guy who has published a book about 'Weisthor' in Germany. I'm not good in translating to English, so I take the texts which are already done. But I think, these quotes are the most detailed answer, concerning the question, which one can find out there. But if someone thinks he can do better... [on this board I suspect anything!!! ] -- I always want to learn more, I know no limits. This topic is really wonderful 'strange'. What would you say, if I tell you, that Wiligut saw himself also as the spiritual king of ... the Gypsies! (that's no joke!)

Grüße!
Kephra

[Javier Acuña]

I bet it must have taken you quite a few minutes.

Actually, it took me a year - just check the posting-dates. I have five CD-ROMS with orginal material scanned from Wiliguts private papers (but I don't have done it myself. It's from a guy who has published a book about 'Weisthor' in Germany. I'm not good in translating to English, so I take the texts which are already done. But I think, these quotes are the most detailed answer, concerning the question, which one can find out there. But if someone thinks he can do better... [on this board I suspect anything!!! ] -- I always want to learn more, I know no limits. This topic is really wonderful 'strange'. What would you say, if I tell you, that Wiligut saw himself also as the spiritual king of ... the Gypsies! (that's no joke!)

Grüße!
Kephra

I didn't noticed the posts' dates, I guess it gives me an idea of the amount of work it took you.
Are you specially interested on this subject (occultism)?
All those quotes, the CDs and info come from the book "The Secret King" or am I wrong?
Anyway, I always thought of Wiligut as a secondary character, obscured by Rosemberg as a Nazi ideologist. (Of course my interest is mainly the NSDAP and the SS)
Do you know if Wiligut was involved in the courses some of the SS men had to do in castles?

Anyway, have a great time in the Homeland of Göthe.

Best Regards, Javier

[Kephra]

Anyway, I always thought of Wiligut as a secondary character, obscured by Rosemberg as a Nazi ideologist.

You are right, Wiligut is not a "main" character - but what is a main charakter concerning the religious/spiritual orientation of a 'political' organization. He was kicked out of the SS in 1939, but it is said that Himmler hold him in high oppinion. Wiligut obviously had his fingerprints on the SS.

Are you specially interested on this subject (occultism)?

No, I'm not! ("Pay No Attention to that Man Behind the Curtain!")

Do you know if Wiligut was involved in the courses some of the SS men had to do in castles?

Not shure, I have to look in my books if I can find something. But naturally he had his students, which where in the SS. He also liked Otto Rahn.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23244

Greetings!
Kephra

[Max]

Were there any SS Christians or were they all Christians, and if they were not Christians, what were they?

I have posted this in another thread.
It is a more general view of christianity c.f. Nat. Soc

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[Javier Acuña]

No, I'm not! ("Pay No Attention to that Man Behind the Curtain!")

Isn't that one from the Wizard of OZ ?

[Kephra]

Isn't that one from the Wizard of OZ ?

NO, IT ISN'T ( I said, "Pay No Attention to that Man Behind the Curtain!")