German 75mm HEAT rounds "Gr 38 HL" for 7,5cm KwK 3

[kfbr392]

i am interested in as much info as possible on this ammo for the "Stummel" 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24 (or K51):

HEAT Grenades:
Gr 38 HL/A penetrating 70mm at all distances
Gr 38 HL/B penetrating 75mm at all distances
Gr 38 HL/C penetrating 100mm at all distances

does anyone have pics and other info???


a+
matt

[JTV]

i am interested in as much info as possible on this ammo for the "Stummel" 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24 (or K51):

HEAT Grenades:
Gr 38 HL/A penetrating 70mm at all distances
Gr 38 HL/B penetrating 75mm at all distances
Gr 38 HL/C penetrating 100mm at all distances

does anyone have pics and other info???


a+
matt

Check this site:

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/germany.html

[kfbr392]

excellent, thanks!

for all, here the info i found at that site:

The Gr.38 Hl entered service in June 1940. The service dates of later patterns of German HEAT projectiles are unknown.

Some clues can be gleaned from Hogg in German Artillery of World War Two where he says of the original Gr.38 Hl design that “...few were used since it was soon replaced by the improved model Hl/A.” I can speculate that the late model Gr.38 Hl/C was used very late in the war because it was developed for so few weapons; nearly all German HEAT projectiles are either Gr.38 Hl/A or Gr.38 Hl/B.

Gr.38 Hl and Gr.39 Hl - Granate Hohlladung. This is the original design for German hollow charge projectiles. It had a deep conical cavity, a short ogive, and a flash tube extending from the base of the fuze to the base of the filling.
Gr.38 Hl/A and Gr.39 Hl/A - Granate Hohlladung pattern A. This is an improved design. It had a wider flash tube that did not extend beyond the liner apex and a longer ogive to give a greater stand-off distance. Both changes were to prevent interference with the formation of the plasma jet.
Gr.38 Hl/B and Gr.39 Hl/B - Granate Hohlladung pattern B. This design is externally the same as the pattern A. It had changes to the explosive filling in an attempt to produce a thicker plasma jet that would be more resistant to the spin of the projectile.
Gr.38 Hl/C and Gr.39 Hl/C - Granate Hohlladung pattern C. This design is externally the same as the pattern A and pattern B. It had an additional inverted funnel in front of the explosive in a further attempt to counter the effects of the spin of the projectile on the formation of the plasma jet.

[cbo]

excellent, thanks!

for all, here the info i found at that site:

The Gr.38 Hl entered service in June 1940. The service dates of later patterns of German HEAT projectiles are unknown.

There is a lot of conflicting evidence with regards to dates of introduction, but I've deducted the following from a wide range of sources:

Gr.38 Hl:
Introduced in June 1940. First combat use in North Africa early 1941. Apparently withdrawn from service soon after (possibly to prevent it falling into enemy hands). Possible use in the east from mid-1941.

Gr. 38 Hl/A:
Probably introduced in late 1941.

Gr. 38Hl/B:
This version is mentioned in reports dated March 1943, so it must have been in use by then.

Gr. 38 Hl/C:
Does not appear to have been in service in January 1944 but is mentioned in manuals etc. from the summer of 1944, so probably introduced in the spring of 1944.

Some sources suggest that Gr. 38 Hl. production for tank guns was all but stopped in 1943. If that is true, then there cannot have been many Gr. 38 Hl/C around.

Claus B

[Erik E]

Some sources suggest that Gr. 38 Hl. production for tank guns was all but stopped in 1943. If that is true, then there cannot have been many Gr. 38 Hl/C around.

In the "gerätliste 97/1" of July 1943, there are nio such grenades mentioned....

The following is the closest:

7,5cm Granate 38. Ausf. A Bis C, H, J, O, P
7,5cm Granate 38/42
7,5cm HlGr 43

EE

[cbo]

Some sources suggest that Gr. 38 Hl. production for tank guns was all but stopped in 1943. If that is true, then there cannot have been many Gr. 38 Hl/C around.

In the "gerätliste 97/1" of July 1943, there are nio such grenades mentioned....

The following is the closest:

7,5cm Granate 38. Ausf. A Bis C, H, J, O, P
7,5cm Granate 38/42
7,5cm HlGr 43

EE

What is a "Gerätliste 97/1" and what is its purpose?

The different Gr. 38 Hl/x are mentioned in manuals for various guns and vehicles and a lot of other sources as well, so there is no doubt that these rounds existed, were called Gr. 38 Hl/x and were used.

IIRC Granate 38 without the Hl prefix is usually high-explosive shells?

Claus B

[Erik E]

What is a "Gerätliste 97/1" and what is its purpose?

The gerätliste lists all the available equipment and its ordering key....
There are no G2 38 with the prefix Hl.
Could the name have changed in 1943?

EE

[cbo]

The gerätliste lists all the available equipment and its ordering key....
There are no G2 38 with the prefix Hl.
Could the name have changed in 1943?

I dont have acces to any original documents prior to 1943, but I've seen references to British reports from 1942 mentioning captured shells as Gr. 38 Hl/A as well as translations (from Jentz) of a May 1942 report mentioning "Gr. 38 Hl".

I've got a copy of a "Panzerbeschusstafel" for the 7,5cm PaK 40 dated January 1943 which speaks of a "7,5cm Gr. Patr. 38 Hl/B PaK 40" though.

Claus B

[Zünder]

The earliest written evidence of 7,5 cm Gr. 38 i found in a manual about 7,5 cm Kw.K. ammo, date: Oktober 19 1939.
The last evidence : june 1941

7,5 cm Gr. 38 HL/A: 30 th of mai 1942, last 16 th of Oktober 1944

7,5 cm Gr. 38 HL/B: december 1942, last: 16 of Oktober 1944

7,5 cm Gr. 38 HL/C: 25 of april 1942, last: 5th of april 1943 (but it will have been in production until the end of the war)

Sources: various original german manuals (Heeres Dienstvorschrift), as well as original projectiles.

The "38"in 7,5 cm Gr. 38 should tell us more about the year it went into service, 1938.

Not all the german shaped charge ammunitions had the prefix "HL", the best example in this diskussion being 7,5 cm Gr. 38.
Other examples: Panzerfaust, Raketenpanzergranate 4312 ("Puppchen") or Raketenpanzergranate 4322 (Panzerschreck).

7,5 cm Gr. 38/42 will have been made for the 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 (Panther), and must have had 2 driving belts.
But in 15 years of ammunitioncollecting and studying, i've seen no evidence of it, neither in drawings, nor real specimens.
If somebody has any ifo, i would be more then interested.

7,5 cm Hl.Gr. 43 is a shell for 7,5 cm rFK 43, since muzzlevelocity is quit slow for this weapon, the drivingbelt must have been quit different from the 7,5 c Gr. 38's, a lot thinner.


Zünder,


http://www.wk2ammo.com

[cbo]

Great stuff, Zünder!

The earliest written evidence of 7,5 cm Gr. 38 i found in a manual about 7,5 cm Kw.K. ammo, date: Oktober 19 1939.
The last evidence : june 1941

And this is definately a hollow-charge projectile?

7,5 cm Gr. 38 HL/A: 30 th of mai 1942, last 16 th of Oktober 1944

7,5 cm Gr. 38 HL/B: december 1942, last: 16 of Oktober 1944

7,5 cm Gr. 38 HL/C: 25 of april 1942, last: 5th of april 1943 (but it will have been in production until the end of the war)

The Hl/C dates seem odd?

The "38"in 7,5 cm Gr. 38 should tell us more about the year it went into service, 1938.

No it doesn't

It may suggest the year the design was made though. After all, the PaK 38 did not see service from 1938 nor did the PaK 40 see service in 1940.

Claus B

[Zünder]

There's nothing odd about the HL/C dates, remember, these are dates i found in manuals i have, but there's no indication that these were the up to date ones.
I do have a HL/C in my collection, but dates are no longer visible on it, unfortunanetly .

I wasn't talking about designation for Pak 38 or Pak40, i am specifically talking about ammunition.

By the way, i just found a drawing of 7,5 cm Gr. 38 dating june 1939.

Drawing of various shells can be found here:

http://213.147.167.60/blaze/viewtopic.php?t=1221


Zünder,


http://www.wk2ammo.com

[cbo]

There's nothing odd about the HL/C dates, remember, these are dates i found in manuals i have, but there's no indication that these were the up to date ones.
I do have a HL/C in my collection, but dates are no longer visible on it, unfortunanetly .

I just think the dates are odd because they predate those of the two other designs. Also, the dates suggest that the three types were almost contemporary, which does not appear to correspond with anything written about these rounds nor the combat reports relating to their use.

When something seems to contradict most other evidence otherwise in existence, I think it is fair to call it "odd", dont you?

If the basic Gr. 38 Hl was actually available in 1939 and the Hl/A, B and C were all made and available in 1942, that raises a number of questions, including why combat reports does not mention all three in 1942. As the HL/C was clearly superior and allegedly available in the spring of 1942, why are only the A and B mentioned in combat reports and why did they bother issuing these rounds when the much superior Hl/C was available? And why does combat reports speak of these rounds as "special rounds" early in 1942 and take great care to destroy them to prevent them falling into enemy hands if, indeed, they were a stock item available since 1938/9?

I wasn't talking about designation for Pak 38 or Pak40, i am specifically talking about ammunition.

Obviously, I'm just pointing out that the German designation systems are not very precise when it comes to defining the year of service. If those relating to guns are odd, chances are that those relating to ammunition are as well. After all, the 7,5cm Gr. Patr. 38/97 did not see service in 1938 or in 1897, did it

By the way, i just found a drawing of 7,5 cm Gr. 38 dating june 1939.

In what manual?

Claus B

[Zünder]

Manual is the "Geschossringbuch, Teil 1".

All dates come out of official german army manuals, or from markings on original shells.

Both are an excellent sources if you ask me...
But most of all, the manuals give an indication about when a certain shell was in use, it say's nothing about the actual production dates.

No, 7,5 cm Gr. Patr. 38/97 did not see service in 1938 nor in 1897, but the shell was a Gr. 38 which may or not have been in service in 1938 (where not certain yet), and the case saw service in 1897.


Zünder,


http://www.wk2ammo.com

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

Before the HL/A, HL/B and HL/C (HEAT shells - HL = Hohladung) there was a HL/1 which was used during tha battle of France in 1940, but it was not as good as the later ones.

Concerning the 7,5 cm Gr. Patr. 38/97 it would be the shell used for the Pak97/38(f) : a 75mm Mle1897 French gun on a Pak38 carriage and with a specific muzzle brake. The German first uses French and Polish ammo for this gun and later developped a HEAT shell for it.

They also for example developped an APCR shell for the French 47mm L/53 SA37/39 AT gun.

Regards,

David

[cbo]

All dates come out of official german army manuals, or from markings on original shells.

Both are an excellent sources if you ask me...

But most of all, the manuals give an indication about when a certain shell was in use, it say's nothing about the actual production dates.

So you would say that the following shells for the 7,5cm KwK/StuK 37

Gr. 38 (Hl) was cartainly in use in June 1939
Gr. 38 Hl/A was certainly in use in May 1942
Gr. 38 Hl/B was certainly in use in December 1942
Gr. 38 Hl/C was certainly in use in April 1942

...and possibly earlier?

David,

the Hl/1 is probably yet another term for the Gr. 38 Hl but I'd be interested in your source for its use in France in 1940. When and by whom was it used?

Claus B