Stalins purges: Responsible for 20 million deaths.

[rappcom]

Although Josef Stalin was mass murderer # 1, (aside from Hitler), you hear more about Hitlers Holocaust of 12 million deaths more than you do about Stalins record of being responsible for roughly 20 million deaths( of his own people). No Holocaust is good of course, and no mass murdering or genocide should be taken lightly in any way, but why is this popularity obvious between Hilters mass murdering of roughly 12 million, compared to Stalins roughly 20 million ?

Media and film is always keeping Hitlers Holocaust fresh in our minds and memories, but rarely do you hear much reference to Stalins purges with much higher estimates. Both were sadistic leaders who condemned millions, Hitler along with his famous concentration camp system operating all over occupied Europe, and Stalins banishment of his own people to the hellish Gulags of Siberia (and the extreme northeast lands) are both horrible, unforgivable men who committed unspeakable beastial acts of cruelty, but for some reason Stalins record of 20 million always seems to be over-shadowed by Hitlers record of 12 million. Can anyone help shed light on this particular topic for me ? I have a hard time understanding why this is looked at so differently by the world.

[Satish]

Couple of reasons in my opinion why Hitler's mass-murders draw more attention and intrigue. First it was the way Mass Murder process was mastered into Industry. Ruthlessly efficient and beaurocratic. Whereas in Gulags people died of cold; in death camps they were hauled 4 to 7 thousands at a time into small chambers (packed with childeren thrown on top of people) and then gassed for few minutes and dead bodies burned. So much hate handled with this much coolness. 6 million people killed in under 3 years. Not sure what the death rate was in Siberia. Besides Death camps also became Medical experiment centers. How did highly qualified scientists, doctors, industrialists join in the in-humane drama.

Second Hitler's victims were largely Jews. Stalin did not focus on a particular race or reason. He was a paranoid and killed whoever he though was a threat.

Hitler's focus hatered of Jews and systematic nature of their extermination I beleive makes him different.

[David Thompson]

We don't ordinarily permit opinion threads in this section of the forum, but this one may actually be productive and hasn't been frequently discussed, so I'll give it a chance.

Here are some factors which contributed to the emphasis on Hitler's murders rather than those of Stalin:

(1) Hitler's mass murders were committed in a very short period of time -- less than six years -- while Stalin's murders were spread out over a much longer period.

(2) Many records relating to Hitler's mass murders were seized and published, while the records relating to Stalin's murders are still being discovered and analyzed. For example, I can easily find and post source documents from the Nazi period, but it is very difficult for me to find translated source documents from the Stalinist period. I'd do it if I could find them, since I think Stalin deserves a little more from the spotlight of history, but all I can turn to are a handful of personal accounts, and the now questionable works of Conquest.

(3) There were many witnesses to Hitler's murders who spoke out after 1945, and many of the perpetrators of those murders were caught and put on trial for their crimes. The news articles and the court records tend to preserve the public's memory of what happened. Only a few witnesses to Stalinist crimes spoke out, and as far as I know, even fewer perpetrators of Stalinist terror were ever charged with crimes or put on trial (with the exeception of the 1936-1939 "show trials" and similar proceedings up until Stalin's death in 1952).

The gist of these remarks is that there is a lot more information about Hitler's murders which is accessible to educated persons than there is about Stalin's crimes. And, as Satish pointed out, Hitler's industrialization of mass murder has a shocking and lurid quality that's missing from accounts of slow deaths from malnutrition in Stalin's famines, and construction or POW camps. If there were more investigations into Katyn-type massacres, that might change

Finally, the history of Russia presents the reader with a cavalcade of cruel and despotic rulers and a long-suffering population over a period of hundreds of years. I think there's a tendency, fair or unfair, for western readers to accept that sort of horror as part of Russian history. German history, by way of contrast, has only one Hitler.

[Sergey Romanov]

Stalins record of being responsible for roughly 20 million deaths( of his own people).

Really? How about evidence?

[rappcom]

Thanks for the great replies. You sure have put all of that in a much better perspective for me now. Considering all of the different issues and angles involved, it makes the broad range of it much clearer to comprehend and understand.

Oh, and sorry I don`t have evidence, I`m here trying to learn and find out facts for myself on all of these types of things, so until I`m presented with nothing to learn and nothing else to understand, then I won`t need to ask questions and throw out scenario`s like these.

Thanks very much for the replies.

[rappcom]

All of the replies are very clear and make total sense in reference to my popularity question of the difference between Hitlers and Stalins mass murdering, but another point is: regardless of how quick and efficiently Hitler carried out his version of it ...... In the end, Stalin was responsible for (almost) twice as many deaths. So no matter the times tables involved, STALIN KILLED MORE PEOPLE. The families of Stalins victims don`t think that there loved ones deaths should be considered as less tragic just because it took longer. So, in the end after thinking it over completely, Stalin still holds #1 on that list.

As I said though, the replies concerning the explanation of the popularity between the two, do make complete sense in regard to the differences in public awareness.

[tonyh]

One other thing. The Kulaks and Kalmyks and other victims of Stalin don't have the voice that the Jews are privvy to in Western Culture, especially in popular media. In fact, most Westerners haven't a clue what a Kalmyk is.

Advertising goes a long way and the holocaust is 'advertised' to such a large degree since the end of the 70's that it tends to drown out the other suffering that other Nations have endured throughout history, not just of contempory times.

Many people today actually believe that Hitler's war was against the Jews and that he killed Jews alone, forgetting the mulitude of other peoples that suffered under nazi Germany's political rule.

Thus the Jewish holocaust has become THE holocaust, while the rest have been drowned in the mists of time.

One must also remember that the Soviet Union was Nation shrouded in mystery for many years after the war, right up until the early 90's. Research into Stalin's crimes of tales of suvivors were simply not available to the West.

Tony

[rappcom]

"YES" Tony, it seems as though you have summed it up very well with your reply. I agree with "ALL" of your points. You obviously have a good grasp on the depth of the total scope of things that occured.

I learned of the Kalmyks and others about 3 years ago, and was shocked and outraged by their documented suffering under the dictatorship of Stalin during his reign of terror.

Also, I have always known of the roughly 6 million others (aside) from the 6 million Jews who suffered under Hitler during that Holocaust, and more people in the world should be aware and acknowledge their sacrifices in life as well. They often do get over-shadowed by the Jewish aspect of it. I`m not meaning to take respect away from the suffering of the Jews, I`m only stating that it is an obvious over-sight and ignorance by many to the extent of others who suffered along with them as well.

[boobazzz]

Advertising goes a long way and the holocaust is 'advertised' to such a large degree since the end of the 70's that it tends to drown out the other suffering that other Nations have endured throughout history, not just of contempory times.

Many people today actually believe that Hitler's war was against the Jews and that he killed Jews alone, forgetting the mulitude of other peoples that suffered under nazi Germany's political rule.

Thus the Jewish holocaust has become THE holocaust, while the rest have been drowned in the mists of time.

.

Tony

I just can't believe what I read here.... atrocities competition?
Jews have a full right to mourn their people in any way they wish, which is also strenghtened by the fact that they were the very first victims of Hitlers ideology of planned nations extermination. Due to that no other nation was so close to biological extinction as they were. And all af us should also be simphatetic for other humans being killed for the very fact of existing.

TonyH, besdies, you yourself called one posters names when he wrote on his own nation's suffering form Germans. seems like a selective apporach to me.

As to Stalin's victims - I am affraid today it is quite immpossible to state exact numbers. Soviets were not so much scrupulous in records as Germans were, so the exact numbers of Gulag inmates will probable never uncovered. Though considering the scale of deportations (Poles, Chechens, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, and so on, not to mention Russians being murdered in 1937 for example) within the USSR, it is far beyond the the numbers of nazis victims.
Though the quesion who was worse is sensless to me. Hilter and Stalin were all the same.

cheers.
b.

[Apocalypse_Now]

I can't believe this is going to turn into another who is worse thread.

They both were self-serving tyrannical rulers who were responsible for countless deaths and unimaginable cruelty. The bestial barbarity inflicted by both men upon their subjects, with the means of a modern state, is reprehensible by any stretch of the mind.

To paint either man with such simplistic comments like: "who is worse" or "murderer #1" lacks the understanding of the actions of both men, IMO.

[David Thompson]

Apocalypse_Now -- You said:

I can't believe this is going to turn into another who is worse thread.

You seem to have missed something. This isn't a "who was worse" thread. It is a "why don't people talk more about Stalin's murders" thread. We already have a number of "who was worse" threads which are still active in this section of the forum. People who want to continue the "who was worse" arguments can post there. If this was another "who was worse" thread it would have a padlock on it.

[Doggowitz]

Its also a matter what you call a victim. Is the normal American, Britisch, Polish, Russian Boy who dies in the war Hitler started, as an SOLDIER, also counted as victim (and I do), than Hitler has an WAY Higher toll than Stalins 20 Mio.

You cant call one geno- or another democide worser than others. ALL are worse and tragic, but when you just look on the facts, statistics, TIME and HOW(!) they managed and excuted it, than the unbeatable number one is Hitler.
The difference to Stalin is:

-That Nazism was stopped early enough.
-Nazi-Ideology is BASED on Genocide, Communism is NOT.
-With Stalins death the masskillings ended, would they have ended when
Hitler was dead? No, they would just went on under every Nazi-
Government.
-Stalin ruled and had his killings in the BIG and (no offense) in many parts anachronistic Soviet-Empire while Hitler had his rign of Terror in the high-modern Centre of Europe.
-Hitlers Genocide was PERFECT Planned and executed with an Skill never seen before. It was an bearucratic organisized Extermination of entire Peoples.
-And last but not at least Hitler did the bulk of masskillings in the Years 1941-44/45. THATS A SHORT Time to do the "work".

P.S. When you just count the numbers, Mao is even before Stalin, and not to forget ol' insane Pol Pot.

[David Thompson]

tonyh said:

Advertising goes a long way and the holocaust is 'advertised' to such a large degree since the end of the 70's that it tends to drown out the other suffering that other Nations have endured throughout history, not just of contempory times.

Many people today actually believe that Hitler's war was against the Jews and that he killed Jews alone, forgetting the mulitude of other peoples that suffered under nazi Germany's political rule.

Thus the Jewish holocaust has become THE holocaust, while the rest have been drowned in the mists of time.

Of the 23 threads listed on the index page of this section of the forum, only 5 deal with exclusively Jewish victims. We welcome your contributions on the subject of other holocaust victims here, to keep them from being "drowned in the mists of time."

[rappcom]

I agree, Apocalypse has completely missed something. "Go figure".....

[Apocalypse_Now]

I agree, Apocalypse has completely missed something. "Go figure".....

:roll: :roll:

I have missed nothing. Your question was answered early on, this thread will drag on to a "who is worse" thread and be locked. "Go Figure"


It is a simple answer regarding your initial question, Stalin was the victor, Hitler the loser, there is a tendency in this world to dilute focus on the actions of the victor, as opposed to that of the vanquished. Not to mention the litany of reasons previously stated by others. :roll:


Now, I will taking bets on how quickly this thread will be locked due straying from the main topic.