Italian casualties

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
Weyler
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Italian casualties

#1

Post by Weyler » 19 Aug 2002, 17:08

I know lot of things about russian front but sincerely I don´t know too much about italian participation in Russian Front. I know Italian army fought (like the german one) in lot of places: North and East Africa, West Europe, its homeland, Balkan and Russia, from Tunez and France to Stalingrad. I think italian total casualties in the world were about 300.000 kia (other book about 60.000). Does anybody know how was the italian casualties by front? How much the italian expeditionary army casualties in Russia? thanks a lot if somebody know.

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Lupo Solitario
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italian dead

#2

Post by Lupo Solitario » 19 Aug 2002, 18:51

there's not a definitive answer cause many documents had been destroyed in war but i think those numbers could be taken as quite indicative:

italian deads in WWII

1940-43

french front 1000
greek campaign 30000
east africa 8000
north africa 20000
russia 80000 (including dead in soviet prisony)
balkan occupation 10000
on sea and skies 30000
civilians 25000

1943-45

fighting against germans and relative slaughters sept-oct 1943 20000
in german prisony 50000 (including dead in traslation)
in allied prisony 10000 (russian counted elsewhere)
balkans 10000
royal regular armed forces 3000
partisans 40000 (fighting and executed)
civilians in german reprisals 10000
civilians in bombings 40000
civilians in lagers (including jews) 15000
RSI 15000
There should be added the number of dead in partisan stormings in april-may 1945 and the executed in Yugo ethnical cleanings around Trieste but those numbers are largely debated, a number of 10000 is extremely indicative

bye
Lupo


Weyler
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#3

Post by Weyler » 19 Aug 2002, 23:00

Thank you very much, grazia mile,
I has always been interesting in italian army in WWII.

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Andy H
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#4

Post by Andy H » 20 Aug 2002, 21:16

As Lupo has stated there is no exact correct figures and the one's listed below are slightly different from Lupo's

North Africa 21,000
At Sea 24,000
Russia 30,000 wounded with 85,000 killed or missing
Greece & Albania 27,000 killed & missing
Yugoslavia 11,000
Fighting with the partisans in Yugoslavia 12,000

:D Andy from the Shire

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Italy's Total Losses

#5

Post by JLEES » 20 Aug 2002, 21:46

What would Italy's total losses be for the war?
James

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Andy H
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#6

Post by Andy H » 20 Aug 2002, 22:03

I have a figure of around 275,000 killed or missing only.

:D Andy from the Shire

Luca
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Re: italian dead

#7

Post by Luca » 21 Aug 2002, 12:15

Lupo Solitario wrote: RSI 15000
....the executed in Yugo ethnical cleanings around Trieste but those numbers are largely debated, a number of 10000 is extremely indicative
Dear Lupo,
can i know where ve You take these numbers?
Thank You
Luca

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#8

Post by Weyler » 21 Aug 2002, 17:13

thanks Mr Cheshire Yeomanry
Really your numbers are different than lupus´ones.. At any case by front aren´t very different about Desert and Russia.. What I wanted to prove is that greater casualties were between 1943 to 1945.. when the most of the information about italian battles I´ve read It´s between 1940 to 1943 and the greater casualties were in Russia and Dessert, but whilst I have plenty of news about italian army in Desert, I have almost nothing about italians operation at Russia.
About italians in Russia only this link: http://digilander.libero.it/secondaguerra/ritirata.html... But it is in Italian and for me is not so easy language!

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Lupo Solitario
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an explanation....

#9

Post by Lupo Solitario » 21 Aug 2002, 18:23

ok, I think I have to give some explanation about my data.....the original question was about how many italians died in WWII so I didn't consider wounded, etc...there's always a large trouble about MIAs but in war quite all MIA are dead without a body.
My data are simply averages between disposable sources, employing largely a good article of G. Rochat "Le perdite italiane nella seconda guerra mondiale" mixed with some other source. An oscillation of + or - 5000 is quite usual from a source to another. So I think that my data and Andy's ones largely coincide.
Quite all italian losses in Russia happened during the terrible battles and retreat of Dec 1942/ Jan 1943. Italian army registered in this period the "lack" of 90000 personnel. Of those only 10000 came back home at the end of war. Keeping records during retreat was absurd, italian and russian historians largely agree that about half of "lackings" died in battle or during retreat (ie about 45000) while other (ie about 35000) died when in russian hands. No consideration about wounded, whoever couldn't retreat on his legs was lost.
Similar troubles for greek front: italian army official data talk of 13000 KIAs and 25000 MIAs but the retreat of NOV-Dec 1940 happened in conditions comparable with Russia and there are no data about how many of those had been captured by Greeks. The number of 30000 dead is consequently only an estimate.
For what concerns Luca's question, the number of RSI deads is taken by Rochat but coincides with other sources I 've seen as Ilari. I made a little typo...itwas not clear that I count 10000 deads for Trieste and 10000 for the rest of italy in spring 1945, I follow number given by G. Oliva in "La resa dei conti" as most probable after having seen different sources...the real trouble is that many deads can be counted in more than one list overall in liberation days chaos. I repeat all data are indicative but we can keep that more or less 200000 italians died before September 8th, 1943 and 200000 after....

at dispo

Lupo

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#10

Post by Luca » 21 Aug 2002, 19:42

In my mind i ve around 100.000 RSI dead. Comprensive of the fighters kill in action, the civils, the civils killed form the jugo and italian comunists in the Foibe (that was from 12000 to 20000) and the RSI fighters assassinated in the postwar.
I will search some sources that can support my bad memory,if i remember well.
Best Regards
Luca

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#11

Post by Andy H » 21 Aug 2002, 21:13

My lack of knowledge about the RSI may be to blame here but the figure of 100,000 dead seems very large given the fact that hardly any field units were involved in main line fighting/battles

:? Andy from the Shire

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#12

Post by Luca » 21 Aug 2002, 21:34

Cheshire Yeomanry wrote: any field units were involved in main line fighting/battles
8O

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Lupo Solitario
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ok...

#13

Post by Lupo Solitario » 21 Aug 2002, 21:43

..my fault, I should specify that with RSI I meaned "people serving in any RSI or german service dead before end of april 1945"or, if you prefer, wearing some uniform. If I sum all the categories you consider as RSI, my data gives a total of 75000. Also considering a possible understimate it couldn't be over 85000 in my opinion.
More:
-bombs call no political opinion, I don't think people died in bombing should be counted as RSI fallen
-many people dead in Yugo slaughters were no fascist, some were member of CLN. I don't think they liked be considered in RSI victims.
-Unfortunately, many of those categories overlap and count same people more than a time is possible
-killings of fascists after summer '45 continued but were quite occasional

my opinion
Lupo

Luca
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Re: ok...

#14

Post by Luca » 21 Aug 2002, 22:54

Lupo Solitario wrote:..my fault, I should specify that with RSI I meaned "people serving in any RSI or german service dead before end of april 1945"or, if you prefer, wearing some uniform.
RSI was the first Italian Republic,no a military formation.

"bombs call no political opinion, I don't think people died in bombing should be counted as RSI fallen


They was RSI citizen. Concern the fact that the bombs no call political opinion, i can say that 1 of the reasons because much citizens go into volunteers fighter formations was the bomb attaks of civils targets.
many people dead in Yugo slaughters were no fascist, some were member of CLN. I don't think they liked be considered in RSI victims
The same. They was RSI citizens. Is in any case correct that the great part of the victimes was only normal citizens. Concern the Fiamme Verdi killed from italian or/and Jugo comunists,i take the occasoin for ask how much is know concern the Fact that in some occasions the Fiamme Verdi partisans fight WITH the X Mas formations v the Tito invasion?
Unfortunately, many of those categories overlap and count same people more than a time is possible
Is possible. What is sure is that some time double count exist into the same categorie.
killings of fascists after summer '45 continued but were quite occasional

Assassinations of Fascists after 25 April was related with the possiblity of kill.Is in any case correct that with the time the possiblity of kill was restricted,for example during the year 1948.

my poor opinion
Luca

PS = Your
after summer '45
is maybe very sad expression.

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Alphabet soup

#15

Post by Custermen » 24 Aug 2002, 16:33

RSI was the first Italian Republic,no a military formation
some were member of CLN. I don't think they liked be considered in RSI victims ====reply===
The same. They was RSI citizens.
This is confusing me. Try these definitions.

Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale((MVSN) - "Volunteer Militia for National Security" . MVSN was Fascist Militia formed soon after Mussolini's rise to power in 1923. The primary function of the MVSN was political control and police duties. Its military function was the organization of Black Shirt battalions for service within each division of the Royal Army.

Repubblica Sociale Italiano(RSI) "Italian Social Republic" new Fascists army formed after Sept 1943. The RSI consisted of the ENR[National Republican Army or Esercito Nazionale Repubblicano] and GNR[Republican National Guard or Guardia Nazionale Republicana].

Gruppi di Azione Patriottica (GAP) {"Pariotic Action Groups"} Each of the six CLN political parties had military commands theoretically under the Military Junta.

Corpo Voluntari della Liberta (CLN). A committee to oversee the various partisan groups.

Corpo Italiano di Liberazione (CLI)- "Italian Liberation Corps". The Badoglio government formed a force of 22,000 soldiers to fight with the Allies. The CLI were equiped with Italian uniforms and material.

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