Life in Occupied Russia

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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ToddGreer
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Life in Occupied Russia

#1

Post by ToddGreer » 14 Nov 2004, 03:18

I have yet to be able to find an account of what it was like for the Russians when the German's came. I would love to know what happened at first, then what happened once they saw the Germans weren't too nice, and then what happened at the end. Is there a book that offers a narrative of Russian occupation, or an account of it by someone who withstood it?

I've always thought that the sight of invaders coming into your lands, wearing crosses (swastika) emblazoned against a red arm band, coming in and shooting people and trying to establish a racist utopia where they were the "uberman" and you were nothing but a slave....that it must have been as scary and apocalyptic as anything could be. Yet I've never seen a book about it. The entire occupation of Russia is basically a mystery to me. Other than the fact that the Russians were dealt with harshly and that some were deported for labor, I dont' know much about it. Can anyone help with this?

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WalterS
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#2

Post by WalterS » 14 Nov 2004, 08:32

Well, if you want to know what the Germans planned for the occupied territories in the USSR check out this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 54&start=0


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ToddGreer
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#3

Post by ToddGreer » 14 Nov 2004, 09:30

I'm more interested in what ACTUALLY happened.

Larry D.
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#4

Post by Larry D. » 14 Nov 2004, 15:28

You have posed a very interesting and valid question, but I think it is so enormous and complex in scope that you will ultimately need to go to a good university library and do some research. There are about a dozen historical works on the subject in English and several dozen articles in obscure scholarly journals that serve the academic community. It has also been the subject of more than several Ph.D. dissertations. If you have a degree you will know how to search for these resources; if not, then a good reference librarian can help you. In the meantime, here is a standard work on this topic that is still a good place to start even though it was published 44 years ago.

Reitlinger, Gerald. The House Built on Sand: The Conflicts of German Policy in Russia 1939-1945. New York: The Viking Press, 1960. Hb. 459p. Maps. Notes. Bibliography. Appendices. Index.

You could obtain it through interlibrary loan or buy it on either the ABA or Bookfinder websites.

--Larry

Roger Griffiths
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#5

Post by Roger Griffiths » 14 Nov 2004, 17:40

This is a vast subject and I'm not aware of a single book that addresses the question. The intention was to incorporate European Russia, ie West of the Urals, into the Reich. The population was to be reduced through starvation to a size which could be no threat and a source of menial labour for the master race. Education was to be limited to primary education and respect for their German Masters.

Almost from Day 1 the thing went wrong. The Army found they were greeted as liberator's and passed back reports. Hitler, if nothing else, had integrity. He did not want Russian Allies, in his eyes they were sub-human. However, realities forced him to accept, albeit with a very bad grace, the need to employ Russians in all sorts of areas including armed units. I use the term 'Russian's' but that means many of the ethnic groups that populated the USSR.

The subject does come up anecdotally in many memoirs by German veterans. Henry Mettelmann (22PD) relates contact with Russian civilians, he even fell in love with a Russian woman. From what he says, the civilians he mixed with were untouched by the larger plans made for them

Might be worth doing a 'Google' on life in USSR 1941-45 and see what comes up.

Roger

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Dora
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#6

Post by Dora » 15 Nov 2004, 04:32

ToddGreer,
One source for an answer to your question is "Harvest of Despair, Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule" by Karel C. Berkhoff, The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Cambridge, 2004.
Dora

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ToddGreer
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#7

Post by ToddGreer » 15 Nov 2004, 05:25

Thank all of you so much for the information. I will check these sources out. I'm a History and Political Science graduate and the idea of a single comprehensive book on this is very appealing to me. Someone should write it.

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magnum357
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#8

Post by magnum357 » 26 Nov 2004, 08:36

Hi to everyone!

I come from Kazakhstan, the country now independent, that used to be one of the 15 former Soviet Republics. The kazakh population fought in WW II together with Russians, and the rate of losses for Kazakhs was tremendous, even though Kazakhstan was never occupied by Germans.

I've been interested in the history of WW II since I was a kid, and I did hear some stories from those who survived in that war. But those memories cannot be taken as factual, unless we interview the whole population of survivors and then do some sociological research...

So I personally think we need to refer to what we have: documented facts, historical researches and statistics.

For now I'd like to present only one statistical fact: the losses of civillian population in USSR because of the occupation (starvation, diseases, murdering, etc.) made 13 million 684 thousand 692 persons, whereas the Soviet Army lost 11 million 273 thousand 026 enlisted persons.

Normally, the losses of civillian population do not exceed the losses of the army, but the case with the nazi occupation in USSR shows opposite.

My personal opinion on this subject is:

Yes, nazis showed some very obvious examples of atrocities toward the population of USSR, especially the SS. But on the whole the german army just didn't care for "sub-humans", like we don't care about ants when we are walking toward our aim in the forest. This comes from their ideology, as we all know.

And some instances, when german soldiers had friendly relationships with the local population, were still the EXCEPTIONS from the rule...

And one last non-statistical fact: you can never find a USSR comedy on the WW II subject. People here still remember the horror of that war.

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Dora
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#9

Post by Dora » 26 Nov 2004, 18:17

Magnum357,
Thanks for your very perceptive comments about the war in the east. In my research I too have noticed that the people of the former U.S.S.R. still view the Second World War in very solomn and reverent terms when, by comparison almost every other combatant nation or people has had the horror fade enough for them to look at their experiences in a lighter tone. Thanks again.
Dora

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Benoit Douville
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#10

Post by Benoit Douville » 30 Nov 2004, 00:24

Magnum,

Welcome to the forum! It's great to have a member from Kazakhstan here to have a look from another perspective about the World War II conflict. I think that every Nation should look at World War II as a very serious event. This is a serious subject.

Regards

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Drobjatski Sergei
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#11

Post by Drobjatski Sergei » 30 Nov 2004, 00:44

Many became partisans or helped them, even if it was dangerous...people were afraid of germans. My grandmother survived the occupation, she lived in a vilage in present Belarus. She told, about germans, who came and were searching for men, weapons and food. They took all the food they wanted, because of that died my two aunts (her children). I know stories about soldiers rapeing women and killing young men, and ofcourse you know the story of khatyn... Let's just say: It was hard, very, very hard... :roll:

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magnum357
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#12

Post by magnum357 » 30 Nov 2004, 06:07

Dora,

No problem... and I must say your observation of the former USSR people is correct. However, new generations (especially those born after the break up of the Soviet Union) seem to be less caring about their history, and this is a very sad tendency.

Benoit Douville,

Thank you for a warm greeting.
I have a question on these particular words of yours "another perspective". Do you think we may not agree on some important subjects of the WW II? (keeping in mind we (Canada and USSR) were allies during WW II)

And another question to you: how many soldiers did Canada loose in that war?

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Dora
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#13

Post by Dora » 30 Nov 2004, 18:42

Magnum,
First, welcome to the Forum! Glad to have you join us and add to the growing body of knowledge and experience that is the great strength of our historical union.

As a Guest Teacher in my local school system I too know the lack of effort that is devoted to teaching history in the public school system. It is dooming the youth of our nation to forge ahead into the new and dangerous world of global terrorism without the benefit of understanding how history can show us examples of how to deal with this menace.

So, glad to have you aboard and also to complement you on your excellent command of English. Have you been to the United States or England? Stay in touch.
Dora

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Benoit Douville
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#14

Post by Benoit Douville » 01 Dec 2004, 04:59

Magnum,

I am sure they are some subject that we are not gona agree. Most of the members here knows my feeling about the megalomaniac Stalin and I don't know what is your view about him, but to me this Man had absolutely no respect for the human being.

About 45 000 Canadians Soldiers lost their lives during World War II and many of them were Volunteers.

Regards

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magnum357
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#15

Post by magnum357 » 01 Dec 2004, 07:17

Dora,

Yes, teaching history is a big problem, whether you are in the US or Kazakhstan... Actually, there is one absolutely correct saying on this subject: "those who forget the past, are doomed to make the same mistakes again".

Thank you for your compliments on my English. I've finished my bachelor's in English language here in Kazakhstan and then got my Master's degree in Sociology in the US.

Benoit Douville,

"Megalomaniac" - the word sounds cool for a foreign speaker (me). I liked it.

Speaking seriously: there are some stereotypes, and one of them is that a person from the former USSR has to be at least positive if not in love with the image of Stalin. Yes, certain part of the former USSR population, especially older generation, do think Stalin was a positive person. However, many more people think he was a "historical necessity" of that time. His rise and rule were a logical outcome of the thinking and social psychology of the masses of Soviet people after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution. The same logic works with the Nazi Germany. Every nation deserves its ruler.
I personally, being a Kazakh, have reasons to hate Stalin and his regime. During the rule of Staling Kazakhs lost 65% of their population due to starvation and fleeing abroad in 1930-1938. In 1939 there were only 3 million Kazakhs. And 126 thousand Kazakh soldiers died in WW II.
However, I still think the price we paid for the victory in that war cannot be too high.
And one more note: I do believe, if the USSR was not a dictatorship at that time, it would have lost the war to the Nazi dictatorship.

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