Something for the hangman

[David Thompson]

From http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 380#576380

SS Economic Administrative Head Office Department Group D
Concentration Camps

Oranienburg, 27 June 1942.

DI/File: 14 f I/L./Ot.
Secret journal No. 428/42
Concerns: Carrying out of executions by prisoners
Reference: RSHA., B.No. IV240/42 Secret Rs. of 25 June 1942.
Enclosures:-/-

15 Copies
Secret Reich Matter.

To the Camp Commandants of the Concentration Camps. DA., SAH., BU., MAU., FLO., NEU., AU., GR.-RO., NATZ., NIE., STU., ARB., RAV., Prisoners of War Camp, Lublin.

The Reich Leader of SS Troops and Chief of the German Police, in modification of his previous instruction, has ordered that Polish or Soviet-Russian prisoners in concentration camps, who have to carry out executions of their fellow countrymen, are no longer to receive 5 Reichsmark, as formerly, but only 3 cigarettes.

In future, the above order of the Reich Fuehrer is to be followed.

Signature.
SS Major-General and Major-General of Arms.

[john h]

a very intresting document david would you know if the wages for killing were paid to kapos and sonderkommandos

[David Thompson]

john h -- You asked:

would you know if the wages for killing were paid to kapos and sonderkommandos

At the moment, I don't know. The documents contained at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 380#576380

just have (my emphasis in the quotations) the Army directive of 29 Dec 1941:

Should a death sentence against a Soviet Russian prisoner of war have to be carried out by hanging, the Commandant of the prisoner of war camp concerned should select from among the Soviet prisoners of his camp a person suitable for carrying out the sentence, who will be compensated in some way (money, food etc.) for his trouble.

If nobody is to be found among the prisoners who is willing to do this, the condemned man is to be handed over to the nearest office of the Secret State Police (Gestapo), as they are likely to be in a position to have the sentence fulfilled by foreign prisoners.

Members of the German armed forces will not be called upon to carry out the sentence.

and in response, the Sipo/SD directive of 18 Feb 1942:

In order to exclude all doubt I decree that:

1. The carrying out of death sentences passed by Army Courts Martial on Soviet Russian Prisoners of War must in no case be effected by the members of the Security Police or the Security Service.

2. Soviet Russian prisoners of war handed over by the Army in such cases are to be hanged by other prisoners of foreign nationality, in agreement with the Camp Commandant either at the camp of origin or at the nearest adjacent camp. The Commandant of the camp in question is to be given instructions to this effect if occasion should arise. The result is to be reported briefly to me.

I request that the leaders of all operational Commands be instructed to this effect, and send you the enclosed additional copies to be passed on to them for daily use.

From this, it looks like the choice of prisoner/executioner was discretionary with the camp commandant. No correspondence which I have seen so far refers to either kapos or sonderkommandos in this context.

[john h]

thanks again david those are really intresting documents it actually opens a can of worms in all the trials i have researched i have only come across kapos being involved in voluntory murder not fellow prisoners killing for the sake of a few cigarettes

[Topspeed]

This can only happen when the inmates and guards are nearly at a same level in food and cigarette wise. In other words in the level of an animal or perhaps lower.

[David Thompson]

This can only happen when the inmates and guards are nearly at a same level in food and cigarette wise. In other words in the level of an animal or perhaps lower.

I think the first sentence is doubtful, given the refusal of the German armed forces and the Sipo u. SD to participate in the executions. The second sentence is apt.

Note that the order originated with Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler and was not a local phenomenon. The distribution list shows the following camps (and through them, their subcamps):

DA. (Dachau), SAH. (Sachsenhausen), BU. (Buchenwald), MAU. (Mauthausen), FLO. (Flossenbuerg), NEU. (Neuengamme), AU. (Auschwitz), GR.-RO. (Gross-Rosen), NATZ. (Natzweiler), NIE., STU. (Stutthof), ARB., RAV. (Ravensbrueck), Prisoners of War Camp, Lublin (Majdanek).

Against the proposition that "the inmates and guards are nearly at a same level in food and cigarette wise," see the mortality rates (not including homicidal gassings) for concentration camp prisoners in Jun 1942, when the SS-WVHA circulated the Reichsfuehrer SS's order. Certainly no such mortality rates are reported for the guards:

Documents on Nazi Concentration Camp Mortality Rates
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63730

Furthermore, there's no reason for thinking that the concentration camp guards would have to go hungry in Jun 1942, before the large-scale bombing of the Reich and given the German policy of seizing foodstuffs from the occupied countries. See the minutes of this conference, held just five weeks after the order of the Reichsfuehrer SS:

Goering's food conference 6 Aug 1942
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66248

[Topspeed]

This can only happen when the inmates and guards are nearly at a same level in food and cigarette wise. In other words in the level of an animal or perhaps lower.

I think the first sentence is doubtful, given the refusal of the German armed forces and the Sipo u. SD to participate in the executions. The second sentence is apt.

Ok I understand this can be viewed in different perspective as what I was intenting to.

Prison in Solovetsk in USSR in 1928 was a hell hole where inmates were laying side by side and fed like dogs. Female fresh prisoners were raped by guards. Can you imagine this going on for years. Are the guards better than the convicted prisoners ? Sentences in USSR were given on false premises so any inmate could have been virtually innocent.

[David Thompson]

Thanks for the clarification, Topspeed. The reference to parity in food and cigarettes threw me off. As for the moral level, I think the administrators and guards are more blameworthy than the prisoners. The prisoners have the degenerate, corrupt camp regime imposed upon them by armed officials wearing the uniform and carrying the authority of the state. Once that happens, the only option for the prisoners is to live or die in the hellhole -- and of course, some live or die worse than others.

[szuwar]

thanks again david those are really intresting documents it actually opens a can of worms in all the trials i have researched i have only come across kapos being involved in voluntory murder not fellow prisoners killing for the sake of a few cigarettes

Stanislaw Grzesiuk writes in his book on Gusen/Mauthausen that on one occasion a prisoner failed to show up at the Appel. An escape was suspected, as a standard practice prisoners remained standing for hours at the Appelplatz. The missing prisoner was later found sleeping somewhere in the camp. It was decided that instead of SS guard administered punishment the prisoners would exercise "justice". Some then proceed to beat the offender but soon thereafter others fought to save his life. I don't have the account in front of me but I believe that according to Grzesiuk the prisoner in question survived the beating.

[Sean_Lamb]

The Reich Leader of SS Troops and Chief of the German Police, in modification of his previous instruction, has ordered that Polish or Soviet-Russian prisoners in concentration camps, who have to carry out executions of their fellow countrymen, are no longer to receive 5 Reichsmark, as formerly, but only 3 cigarettes.

Muhahahahaha, what a crazy letter. To think that anyone would have thought the Germans would bother sending letters to each other like that!

Its so surreal, to think how much we laugh at those medievalists who would have debates on how many angels could dance in the head of a pin.

And here we have debates about how the Germans had regulations that 3 cigarettes and 3 cigarrettes only would be provided for excutioners.

Simply surreal.