Murder methods in "Aktion Reinhardt" camps

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White Rose
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Murder methods in "Aktion Reinhardt" camps

#1

Post by White Rose » 21 Nov 2004, 07:25

[This thread was split off the "Question for our readers" thread at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=62767 -- DT]

Hi David,

I'm looking for a pointer as much as for a document here.

This is often cited on denier sites:
OSS document No. 67231, dated April 13, 1944. National Archives
(Washington, DC), Military Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records),
Jewish inmates at Treblinka "were in general killed by steam and not by
gas as had been at first suspected."
I've done a brief search on the National Archives site, but I couldn't locate anything useful there. I'm sure that this little tidbit is either out of context or otherwise explainable, as Treblinka was a camp that utilized CO, not steam for killing.

However, without having the document, there is no way to know. Any ideas on how to source this?

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#2

Post by David Thompson » 21 Nov 2004, 08:09

White Rose -- You asked:
However, without having the document, there is no way to know. Any ideas on how to source this?
To answer your question, you need to get the document from NARA and have a look at it. You can ask them directly about it by e-mail.

You also said:
This is often cited on denier sites:
OSS document No. 67231, dated April 13, 1944. National Archives
(Washington, DC), Military Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records),
Jewish inmates at Treblinka "were in general killed by steam and not by
gas as had been at first suspected."
I am not pressed by this reference, and my reaction to the citation is: "so what?"

While the rumor was current in 1944, I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe it was true, or had any basis in reality other than a misunderstanding of how folks were killed in gas chambers.

No doubt the OSS received a number of other reports on a variety of subjects in 1944 which were false, exaggerated, unverifiable, or the result of mistake. OK. What is the significance of this? That's what military intelligence is all about -- collecting information and then analyzing it. Some of is good, and some of it isn't. If there is some false or erroneous information about the V-2 program received by the OSS in 1944, what conclusions, if any, should subsequent historians draw about the V-2 program?

Where does that leave us about this claim? Nowhere, which brings us back to the "So what?" question.


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Sergey Romanov
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#3

Post by Sergey Romanov » 21 Nov 2004, 13:24

WR, Mattogno gives some large excerpts from several documents describing the alleged use of steam in his book about Treblinka.

White Rose
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#4

Post by White Rose » 21 Nov 2004, 19:09

Mr. Romanov,
Sergey Romanov wrote:WR, Mattogno gives some large excerpts from several documents describing the alleged use of steam in his book about Treblinka.
Do you have a link for this book (if it's available online)?

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#5

Post by David Thompson » 21 Nov 2004, 19:48

Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?
http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/

The steam allegations can be found here:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/3.html

White Rose
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#6

Post by White Rose » 21 Nov 2004, 22:16

Hi David,
David Thompson wrote:you need to get the document from NARA and have a look at it. You can ask them directly about it by e-mail.
I will do so. I thought you, or one of the other readers might have additional advice; it was worth a try.
David Thompson wrote:You also said:
This is often cited on denier sites:
OSS document No. 67231, dated April 13, 1944. National Archives
(Washington, DC), Military Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records),
Jewish inmates at Treblinka "were in general killed by steam and not by
gas as had been at first suspected."
I am not pressed by this reference, and my reaction to the citation is: "so what?"
It's my reaction too, but I got curious on this "steam" nonsense. However, as many of these "claims" are taken out of context, twisted, or otherwise manipulated to support an unsupportable case, it's always nice to expose one as an outright deception.
I'm quite confident that taken in context, this "quote" can either be dismissed or properly evaluated, but since we're only given a sliver of information, it is clearly an appeal to authority. (The telling bit is that the citation is longer then the actual quoted sentence).

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Use of steam

#7

Post by steve248 » 24 Nov 2004, 13:02

I believe the "steam" question is wrongly attributed to the killing process in gas chambers. It is my understanding that when the doors were opened after the killing had taken place, the gas chamber was "steamy"
from the bodies' themselves, sweat, urine etc. Steam was not introduced into the death chambers themselves.

I have also seen a Polish resistance report to the Polish Government -in-Exile in London stating that the victims were killed by electricity from the floor of the death chambers.

I believe that these reports stem from poor and wrong attribution to the method of killing.

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Sergey Romanov
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#8

Post by Sergey Romanov » 24 Nov 2004, 15:56

The interesting question is why certain witnesses claimed that steam was used first and diesel exhaust second (not to mention the vacuum chambers). It is possible that they heard different rumors from the other inmates and tried to present their "synthesis". The truth is that only Nazis and "gasmeisters" could be completely sure about the method of killing (and all of them said it was done by the engine exhaust).

Here is a similar case for Sobibor.

Graf in his book wrote:
One of the eyewitnesses, a Soviet Jew named Alexander Pechersky, described the mass murders as follows (9):

"At first glance, as one entered, it like a normal shower: hot and cold taps for running water, wash basins... as soon as everyone was inside, the doors slammed shut with a loud noise. Out of holes in the ceiling, a heavy, blackish substance poured down in spiral shapes..."

To drown out the pitiful cries of the victims, the Germans at Sobibor kept a flock of geese [!] which were made to quack (or whatever noise it is that is made by geese), very loudly, whenever the blackish substance was introduced (10).

...

9) Alexander Pechersky, La rivolta di Sobibor, in Yuri Suhl, Ed essi si ribellarono, Milan, 1969, p. 31.
10) ibid.

http://www.ety.com/HRP/booksonline/graf/chap12.htm
It turns out that Graf took the quote out of context, as is usual for these neo-Nazi liars. Pechersky did not claim to know the method first-hand. He heard about it from someone else; from someone, who also did not witness it first-hand. This info I got from Mr. Harry Mazal:
I have scoured through my books and found many references to Pechersky (Raseke, Novitch Cohen, Arad , Blatt and Temchin - to name but a few). It was not until I looked in:

They Fought Back
Edited by Yuri Suhl
c. 1967, Crown Publishers (New York)
Library Of Congress Catalog Card No. 66-26175

that I came across the essay entitled:

"Revolt in Sobibor" by Alexander Pechersky

Not surprisingly, Graf has quoted the article from an
obscure Italian source not obtainable by anyone. He
has further quoted Pechersky completely out of
context.

Looking at the version in English that I have quoted it
is a simple matter to see that Pechersky did not originate
the statements that are attributed to him by Graf, but are
merely bits of hearsay that he quotes:

"On the evening of the fifth day we arrived at a small
deserted station. A white sign in big gothic letters read SOBIBOR.

[...]

"...Oberscharf?hrer Gomerski, a former Berlin boxer ...
planted himself in fornt of us, scrutinized us and
called out:

'Carpenters and cabinetmakers without families -- forward!'

"About eighty men, most of them prisoners of war, stepped forward. I was among them. We were forced into a yard fenced off by a barbed wire. From there we were led to a
barracks with barren bunks and ordered to take our places.
All the others in the transport remained on the other side of the fence and we never saw them again.

[...]

"A short, stocky Jew sat down near us. He was about forty
years old. He had just returned from work in another yard. 'Where are you from?' he asked me in Yiddish.

[...]

"The air was full of the sharp smell of something smoldering.
'What's burning there?' I asked.

"'Don't look in that direction' the Jew replied, 'your comrades
bodies are burning there...'

[...]

"He was an old-time inmate who worked at sorting out the clothing of those who were killed. He was well informed. From him we learned where our comrades had disappeared and how the whole thing operated. [...]

" 'As soon as you were separated from them, ' he said, 'they
were taken to a second yard where everyone, without exception must gather. [...] ...the bareheaded women. wearing only their undergowns, and the children go first. About a hundred steps behind them go the men, completely naked. All are heavily guarded. There is the 'bath' he pointed with one hand, 'not far from where you see the smoke. Two buildings are standing there, one for women and children, the other for men. I MYSELF HAVE NOT SEEN WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE INSIDE (emphasis mine - HWM) but people who know have described it.'

"At first glance, as one entered, it like a normal shower: hot and cold taps for running water, wash basins... as soon as everyone was inside, the doors slammed shut with a loud noise. Out of holes in the ceiling, a heavy, blackish substance poured down in spiral shapes..."

(etc.)

Note how Graf attempts to attribute the statement to
Pechersky, rather than clearly identifying it as hearsay repeated by him. It is this sort of peculiar behavior that separates mendacious people like Graf from true historians.
And Mr. Toivi Blatt, also a former Sobibor inmate, wrote:
Dear Mr. Romanov.
I read all of Pechersky's writing and also twice personally interviewed him. He never claims to see inside the gas chambers. Yuri Suhl book is plain literature and the author had the freedom of imagination. No Jew who was once inside the gas chamber in operation come out alive. The information about the gassing installation came from the accused Nazi testimonies in the court proceedings. Second hand stories are many times deceitful. I myself find my story completely rewritten and unrecognizable in Miriam Novich book about Sobibor.
BTW, maybe we could start a new thread called "Murder methods in Aktion Reinhardt camps"?

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