Was there any chance for Operation Sealion to be successful?
Was there any chance for Operation Sealion to be successful?
With the blatant British superiority in naval forces, was Operation Sealion really seriously considered?
Was there any chance for the invasion of Britain be any successful?
Just wondering...
Jose
Was there any chance for the invasion of Britain be any successful?
Just wondering...
Jose
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I believe the name of the book I'm thinking of was either Operation Sealion, or Operations Seelöwe, written by an Englishman. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
Anyway, the author had been in the Army (Royal Tank Corps?) and I guess he basically gamed out the invasion, and wrote the book. I think that it was successful in the book, because most of the problems ended up resolving in favor of the Germans.
Bottom line, IIRC, was that it could have worked.
Anyway, the author had been in the Army (Royal Tank Corps?) and I guess he basically gamed out the invasion, and wrote the book. I think that it was successful in the book, because most of the problems ended up resolving in favor of the Germans.
Bottom line, IIRC, was that it could have worked.
The thread below will cover most aspects of this.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20620
Yes there's always a chance, but in trying to quantify something you must give it some perspective.
Andy H
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20620
Yes there's always a chance, but in trying to quantify something you must give it some perspective.
Andy H
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I think that there is a strong possibility that had German invasion forces gained a foothold on the English coast, then they would have successfully gained control of the country in a matter of weeks.
The Royal Navy and Airforce would of course have inflicted major casualties on the Germans but I don't believe it would have been enough to save the situation. I can't understand Hitler's indecision over this matter, as usually he would take an aggressive approach (as in Russia).
The Royal Navy and Airforce would of course have inflicted major casualties on the Germans but I don't believe it would have been enough to save the situation. I can't understand Hitler's indecision over this matter, as usually he would take an aggressive approach (as in Russia).
Re: Was there any chance for Operation Sealion to be success
In any military operation theres always a slight chance that even the craziest plan will work.JoseFrancis wrote:
Was there any chance for the invasion of Britain be any successful?
.
Jose
8)
and Operation Sealow was as crazy as they come
But I know one thing.
There is no way I would have wanted to be part of the German invasion fleet
The German forces commandeered a large number of rhine barges (rijnaken) in the Netherlands (and similar vessels in other countries) and converted them to landing crafts. Because they couldn't convert the bow, everything had to be unloaded from ramps.
After Seelöwe dissolved, the barges went back to the Netherlands. Most of the times, the original crew had to sail these ships.
Regards,
Gertjan
After Seelöwe dissolved, the barges went back to the Netherlands. Most of the times, the original crew had to sail these ships.
Regards,
Gertjan
The German forces commandeered a large number of rhine barges (rijnaken) in the Netherlands (and similar vessels in other countries) and converted them to landing crafts. Because they couldn't convert the bow, everything had to be unloaded from ramps.
After Seelöwe dissolved, the barges went back to the Netherlands. Most of the times, the original crew had to sail these ships.
Regards,
Gertjan
After Seelöwe dissolved, the barges went back to the Netherlands. Most of the times, the original crew had to sail these ships.
Regards,
Gertjan
True but the barges where named after a type on the Rhine and the North French, Belgian and Dutch waters.
Most of the barges however came from France, Germany and Belgium, they where from the favorite interbellum model called "Luxe" (because they were the first with a toilet on board and had a length of 25-30 m.
Most of the barges however came from France, Germany and Belgium, they where from the favorite interbellum model called "Luxe" (because they were the first with a toilet on board and had a length of 25-30 m.
Sealion has two components, first the landings and then the land battles.
If it came out to a land battle between the Heer and the British Army at home, both operating at their full potential, its good night Great Britian.
But to get that far the Germams not only have to sucessfuly land, but be supplied in sufficent quantity. And that I just can't see happeneing. IIRC the German forces staged ONE amphibous exercise in the preperation for Sealowe, and they lost 2 barges out of 10 to navigational/seamanship issues before they even reached the beach. That was in daylight without opposition. I'm not suggesting this is evidence that the invasion force couldn't land troops, although it doesn't look very good, but to have only one simple (battalion sized IIRC) exercise in anticipation of a cross channel invasion hardly looks like good preperation to me.
Even without the RN, the invasion would have faced great challanges in just crossing the channel, after they landed, there woiuld have been even greater difficulties in maintaing the force ashore let alone buuilding it up to a level capable of matching the British Army. And even then there is the issue of supply, with the KM responciable for landing the stores and no mechanisim to cordinate distribution the beach would have been a massive jumble untill they cleared a port (Dover), and even then they chose one that could only meet the armys needs at full stretch in peacetime...
When you throw the RN and RAF into the picture, at best Germany had an uphill struggle to make even odds, in all honesty I can see the Germans establishing a beachead, but not being able to expand it, and eventually being crushed. Actually I wish they had tried it, a German Dunkirk (without the rescue) would have been a great benifit for Britian IMHO.
shane
If it came out to a land battle between the Heer and the British Army at home, both operating at their full potential, its good night Great Britian.
But to get that far the Germams not only have to sucessfuly land, but be supplied in sufficent quantity. And that I just can't see happeneing. IIRC the German forces staged ONE amphibous exercise in the preperation for Sealowe, and they lost 2 barges out of 10 to navigational/seamanship issues before they even reached the beach. That was in daylight without opposition. I'm not suggesting this is evidence that the invasion force couldn't land troops, although it doesn't look very good, but to have only one simple (battalion sized IIRC) exercise in anticipation of a cross channel invasion hardly looks like good preperation to me.
Even without the RN, the invasion would have faced great challanges in just crossing the channel, after they landed, there woiuld have been even greater difficulties in maintaing the force ashore let alone buuilding it up to a level capable of matching the British Army. And even then there is the issue of supply, with the KM responciable for landing the stores and no mechanisim to cordinate distribution the beach would have been a massive jumble untill they cleared a port (Dover), and even then they chose one that could only meet the armys needs at full stretch in peacetime...
When you throw the RN and RAF into the picture, at best Germany had an uphill struggle to make even odds, in all honesty I can see the Germans establishing a beachead, but not being able to expand it, and eventually being crushed. Actually I wish they had tried it, a German Dunkirk (without the rescue) would have been a great benifit for Britian IMHO.
shane
Kenneth Macksey wrote a great book on a what-if Operation Sealion, called Invasion. But the key difference was - the invasion was set in July 1940 - not September. An early invasion, before the British had recovered from the defeat in France, might have worked.
To make this work, IMO the Germans would have to start preparing for Operation Sealion right after the defeat of Poland, in October 1939! Building landing craft, and training troops. The Norwegian campaign would have to be cancelled completely. The Germans occupy Denmark but not Norway - the British might occupy Norway instead, depending on Norwegian resistance.
The Germans would have to start the Battle of Britain in early June 1940, right after Dunkirk. Luftwaffe forces and the required infantry, panzer and paratroop forces needed for the invasion would be withdrawn from the Battle of France in preparation for Sealion. The French Army would be able to hold out for an extra two weeks in southern France as a result because the German forces attacking them after 5 June would be weaker - the French surrender would not be until 6 July 1940. (This might be in the German favour because the French would be demanding that more British troops and fighter aircraft go to southern France, where they would be destroyed much easier than in Britain.) The German Navy, not having suffered great losses and damage in the Norwegian campaign, would be much stronger than historically, although still not a match for the RN, of course.
The climax of the Battle of Britain would occur in early July 1940, and although the RAF would not be completely destroyed by any means, it would have lost local control of the air over the invasion area in daylight. That would be just enough to let the Germans establish a beachhead ashore. The British Army would not have had time to build much in the way of coastal defenses, or to rebuild its shattered armoured formations. Nor would there have been time to ship replacement weapons from America.
To make this work, IMO the Germans would have to start preparing for Operation Sealion right after the defeat of Poland, in October 1939! Building landing craft, and training troops. The Norwegian campaign would have to be cancelled completely. The Germans occupy Denmark but not Norway - the British might occupy Norway instead, depending on Norwegian resistance.
The Germans would have to start the Battle of Britain in early June 1940, right after Dunkirk. Luftwaffe forces and the required infantry, panzer and paratroop forces needed for the invasion would be withdrawn from the Battle of France in preparation for Sealion. The French Army would be able to hold out for an extra two weeks in southern France as a result because the German forces attacking them after 5 June would be weaker - the French surrender would not be until 6 July 1940. (This might be in the German favour because the French would be demanding that more British troops and fighter aircraft go to southern France, where they would be destroyed much easier than in Britain.) The German Navy, not having suffered great losses and damage in the Norwegian campaign, would be much stronger than historically, although still not a match for the RN, of course.
The climax of the Battle of Britain would occur in early July 1940, and although the RAF would not be completely destroyed by any means, it would have lost local control of the air over the invasion area in daylight. That would be just enough to let the Germans establish a beachhead ashore. The British Army would not have had time to build much in the way of coastal defenses, or to rebuild its shattered armoured formations. Nor would there have been time to ship replacement weapons from America.