Could the Baltic States have resisted to the Soviet Union?

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
User avatar
cipiao
Member
Posts: 68
Joined: 04 Dec 2004 19:31
Location: Portugal

Could the Baltic States have resisted to the Soviet Union?

Postby cipiao » 05 Jan 2005 22:44

[Edit: Ths thread contains photos of killed partisans. Some may find them disturbing]

I often have read that the Baltic States had small, but yet very good and well trained armed forces, with good officers corps. In many books and sites it's said that the armed forces were prepared to resist and that it was the politicians who had affraid the soviet Union. How could this be; I know that the armed forces of the 3 States were small, and none of them could mobilise more then 100 000 men. They have almost no navies and the air forces were small and with outdated equipement, so how could be reportede that they could fight, and that was the politicians cowardess that made them to surrender? What chance do they have? Could they repeat the brave events of Filand a few moths earlear?
Last edited by cipiao on 09 Jan 2005 13:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PPoS
Member
Posts: 845
Joined: 22 Sep 2004 12:35
Location: Sweden

Postby PPoS » 06 Jan 2005 00:29

No I don't believe they could.. Maybe with much luck. They could not repeat what the finns had done. But sure, with LUCK .. yes.

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 6284
Joined: 11 Nov 2004 12:53
Location: Wienhausen / Deutschland

Postby Jan-Hendrik » 06 Jan 2005 00:59

Not really , outnumbered by Red Army 30:1 they could had fougth and died with honor , but after a few weeks their countries would have ended as burned-out ruins ....


Jan-Hendrik

User avatar
red devil
Financial supporter
Posts: 612
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 02:11
Location: Sutton Coldfield England

Postby red devil » 06 Jan 2005 06:22

Only if the Red Army never turned up!

User avatar
Lit.
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 14:43
Location: Lithuania

Re: Could the baltic States have resisted to the Soviet Unio

Postby Lit. » 07 Jan 2005 17:23

Actually they did resisted. But a bit later. Lithuania was freed not by German Army (who actually occupied it), but by National Uprising in June of 1941. Then 4000 of Freedom Fighters felt and 8000 wounded. German troops entered in free Lithuania with it's own Government and all other components of free state, including armed forces.

After Germany lost it's war to USSR, Lithuania continued it's own during 1944-1965, waiting for the support of Free Democracies.

There are few sites about Lithuanian war versus Soviet Russia:

http://www.elnet.lt/vartiklis/voruta/kr ... ronicl.htm
http://www.lithuanian.net/memory/bloody/povilas.htm
in German: http://www.muenster.org/litauen/html/partizanai.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/heavy_me ... index.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/heavy_me ... isans.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... ryoflithua
http://www.silviafoti.com/pdf/portfolio_grandfather.pdf

We've lost KIA - 20.000-23.000 Freedom Fighters, but Red Army lost much more.
Usually in the first stage of this war (there were 3 stages) when most fierce battles with Soviet NKVD troops took place in Lithuania, the result was 5:1 - 10:1 in casualties. This is why we Lithuanians have no such problems with so called Russian speaking "minorities" like Latvia or Estonia have today. Russians colonists were simply afraid to invade Lithuania because of partisan war that was going on for more then 10 years long.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Lit. on 08 Jan 2005 19:39, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
cipiao
Member
Posts: 68
Joined: 04 Dec 2004 19:31
Location: Portugal

Postby cipiao » 07 Jan 2005 20:50

Lit, thanks for the information and the sites adresses. It is amazing what the will of freedom from a people can do. Can you tell me more about the national revolt of June of 1941, and how did the Germans administred your country; did they deal with the national leaders of the revolt, or put them way and administred the country directilly?

User avatar
Lit.
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 14:43
Location: Lithuania

Postby Lit. » 08 Jan 2005 13:58

cipiao wrote:Lit, thanks for the information and the sites adresses. It is amazing what the will of freedom from a people can do. Can you tell me more about the national revolt of June of 1941, and how did the Germans administred your country; did they deal with the national leaders of the revolt, or put them way and administred the country directilly?


Dear "cipiao", I'll try to find you answers, but in the meanwhile, could you please edit the name of your topic and put capital "B" in word "BALTIC". :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Lit. on 08 Jan 2005 19:37, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Sotka
Member
Posts: 423
Joined: 24 May 2003 16:48
Location: Turku (Турку), Finland

Postby Sotka » 08 Jan 2005 17:25

Thank you, Lit.! Interesting pictures.

Regards,

Tuomo A.

User avatar
cipiao
Member
Posts: 68
Joined: 04 Dec 2004 19:31
Location: Portugal

Postby cipiao » 09 Jan 2005 13:37

Lit. wrote:
cipiao wrote:Lit, thanks for the information and the sites adresses. It is amazing what the will of freedom from a people can do. Can you tell me more about the national revolt of June of 1941, and how did the Germans administred your country; did they deal with the national leaders of the revolt, or put them way and administred the country directilly?


Dear "cipiao", I'll try to find you answers, but in the meanwhile, could you please edit the name of your topic and put capital "B" in word "BALTIC". :)
Done; it has a capital B, as should have had since the beggining.

User avatar
Topspeed
Member
Posts: 4236
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 15:19
Location: Finland

Postby Topspeed » 09 Jan 2005 15:41

Ehem..from 1922 USSR treated the baltic states and Finland as a "borderblock". Finland and Estonia had some common defence strategies. Estonia possessed some of the largest coastal gun batteries...unfortunately Estonias back was not covered and those mighty guns never had a change to defend Estonia.

User avatar
cyberdaemon
Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 11 Mar 2004 22:04
Location: estonia

Postby cyberdaemon » 09 Jan 2005 16:50

baltic states would fought and fall in first few weeks , but most important!like it happened in iraq , it would happen in
balticum - baltic partisans would cause the soviets a hig losses.

User avatar
Lit.
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 14:43
Location: Lithuania

Postby Lit. » 09 Jan 2005 17:39

Thanks for correcting name Baltic. Here is some more pictures.

One of most outstanding figures in WW2, that in Lithuania ended only after 1993.08.31 (when the last soldier of Russian occupation forces had left the country) was architect Juozas Luksa - "Daumantas", "Skirmantas" (1921.08.10 - 1951.09.04).

He joined armed fight in the Spring of 1945. 1947 became a commander of "Birute" brigade, "Tauras" district (south of Lithuania). In the May of 1947 together with J.Kriksciunas - "Rimvydas" he crossed Iron Curtain (border) for Poland to restore contacts with Lithuanian political leaders in exile. Returned back and after some time crossed border (during the fighting with NKVD border units) again in 15th of October 1947. From Poland he reached the West - visited and made great number of contacts with Lithuanian leaders and unofficial with the officials from secret services of US, UK and France in W. Germany, France, Sweden - seeking for any political and military support from Western Democracies. Unfortunately, the only support he get - was a treason by NKVD-KGB agents infiltrated in UK MI, and US CIA.

Juozas Luksa get married in France with Lithuanian girl, both knowing, that he is going to return back soon, to continue his fight to the end. She died few years ago, still as a widow of Juozas Luksa.
During his short stay in the Free countries he wrote the book about what was really going on in Lithuania (the bestseller) "Freedom Fighters: Lithuanian Partisans Versus the U.S.S.R, 1944-1947":

The book was translated in many languages. Here is in English:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... ryoflithua

In 1950.10.03 he was paratrooped with other two Lithuanian Freedom Fighters, (all armed and well trained in special secret service schools in France and W.Germany - Klemensas Sirvys - "Sakalas" (1926-2003) and Benediktas Trumpys - "Rytis" (1919-1951). During this landing in Zemaitija, they have lost some of the equipment, because of the traitors in UK MI. NKVD were well informed and waiting for them! But all 3 managed to reach the active Partisans in the South of Lithuania, "Tauras" military district. B.Trumpys - "Rytis" KIA in 1951.05.20 in his bunker, near Zapyskis (close to Kaunas), but K.Sirvys - "Sakalas", from 1951.07.20 commander of "Zalgiris" brigade, in 1952.07.24 was not killed in action, but unfortunately only wounded. After NKVD treatment, he became a traitor of MGB and during 2 years was used for provocation and other purposes. After that he was sentenced 25 years in Communist Labor camp plus 5 years in exile. After that he in the 1970 returned to occupied Lithuania. Died in 2003.

Juozas Luksa - "Skirmantas" died as a hero. Though NKVD-MGB-KGB made a lot of efforts to catch him alive. But failed. All the time J.Luksa was ready to use his guns, especially his Czechoslovakian submachine-gun "Samopal" - 25, 9 mm, which he brought with him after the last trip from the West. In the night of 4th of September 1951 Juozas Luksa - "Skirmantas" used his "Sapopal" for the last time, hopefully killing some reds. Here you see his betrayed body. His 2 brothers, also Lithuanian partisans were killed in actions some years before. His old unarmed father was (cold blooded) killed in his farmland also some years before. During German occupation, his family gave shelter and hide some Russian soldier (POW), that escaped from the German camp. But present Russia and it's retaired KGB staff still hiding the place, where Juozas Luksa remains are. The same is with his famous guns and other things, including private.

Nevertheless NKVD-MGB-KGB, now FSB are still very proud of shooting Juozas Luksa - "Daumantas". His gun and some of his other personal things and military equipment are still in the basement of famous "Lubyanka" (KGB Headquarters in Moscow) shown under glass in the inner museum of CK-NKVD-MGB-KGB-FSB-XXX, closed for personnel only.

This year was shown in our Cinemas a new Lithuanian Movie "Vienu Vieni" (unfortunately - not good enough to be proud of) about his life and his struggle for freedom.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Lit. on 09 Jan 2005 18:51, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Lit.
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 14:43
Location: Lithuania

Postby Lit. » 09 Jan 2005 18:35

Here is some more:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
cipiao
Member
Posts: 68
Joined: 04 Dec 2004 19:31
Location: Portugal

Postby cipiao » 09 Jan 2005 19:13

Thaks Lit, I've apreciat very much the informations and photos. i have one question: what kind of support these men and women had from the west, I mean, in logistics. from the photos they seem well equiped. I know that the majority of the weapons are from russian fabrication, probabilly captured to russian opressors, but the uniforms, the binocculars, the boots, and every thing else seams in very good shape. How is this possible? The continuos use of the equipement without a support of logistical organized services would have deteriorated all, but even in the photos of 1947 and 1948, they seem in good shape...

User avatar
Lit.
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 14:43
Location: Lithuania

Postby Lit. » 09 Jan 2005 19:46

cipiao wrote:question: what kind of support these men and women had from the west

Thanks for a very good question. The answer is simple - none. Only support that they have had from the Free world, was used by Juozas Luksa and his few brothers in arms after landing in 1950. All other equipment, uniforms and armory was what was possible to get in occupied Lithuania.

At the initial stage of armed resistance the majority of partisan uniforms consisted of uniforms belonging to the officers and ordinary soldiers of former Lithuanian Army. In the begining, elements of German uniform were common too.; they were brought along by soldiers of "Home brigade" (formed in 1944 under call of general Plechavicius) who joined the forest.

When the centralisation of partisan military structures started, the Council of LLKS by its Didective No.13 of 19th May, 1949 changed the existing rules for wearing signs of distinction and for using military ranks, and introduced the Lithuanian Army uniform as standart.

A massive variety reigned in partisans' equipment. Most often they wore Lithuanian, Russian, German, soldiers' and officers' belts, hung with various leather and cloth holsters for firearms and ammo. Most of the equipment was from Soviet Army, but sometimes one would come across fairly rare specimens. As American belts of 1936 model worn by J.Luksa and his comrades; and one partisan in "Grazina" platoon, "Kestutis" military district wore a soldiers' belt with a buckle used by the Tsarist Russian army.

They didn't get support from so called "Democracies", but they did get tremendous support from their own people. There were 30.000 armed fighters in the woods of occupied Lithuania, in 1945. But there were several times more supporters, ordinary people of Lithuania, mostly peasants, who resisted Soviet occupation in all possible ways. So the date 8th of May 1945 means at least nothing at all to Lithuania and to all Lithuanians. W.W.II for us, as I said before ended in 1993.08.31. This was the end date of W.W.II here.

The Lithuanian writing at the bottom of the first picture says: "In the deep woods of Lithuania the life is still going on... 1947.07.20."

All above and below black and white pictures are from the Photo Album "For Freedom and Fatherland" /"Už laisvę ir Tėvynę" : [fotoalbumas / sudarytojai Dalia Kuodytė, Eugenijus Peikštenis, Dalius Žygelis ; teksto autoriai Dalia Kuodytė, Jonas Vaičenonis]. - Vilnius : Valstybės žinios : Lietuvos gyventojų genocido ir rezistencijos tyrimo centras, 2004 (Vilnius : Sapnų sala). - 255, [1] p. : iliustr. - Dalis gretut. teksto liet., angl. - Tiražas 1500 egz. - ISBN 9986-18-132-1 (įr.)/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Lit. on 16 Jan 2005 16:56, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests