Mass murder: Communist teachers, Nazi pupils?

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michael mills
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#1

Post by michael mills » 15 Jan 2005, 00:20

Document L-53: Clearance of Prisons [translation], in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume VII: US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1947. pp. 814-815.
The recommendation, made in 1944, to kill all prisoners and Jews who could not be evacuated in time in the case of an enemy advance, was no doubt based on the example of Soviet practice in June-July 1941.

At that time the Soviet NKVD had summarily executed large numbers of inmates of prisons in Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia who could not be evacuated because of the speed of the German advance. The executed prisoners were mainly Ukrainian opponents of Soviet rule.

This was yet another example of the German Government copying the radical exterminationist methods of the Soviet Government.

For details of the events of 1941, see the book ' "Konterrevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschiessen" : Die Brutalisierung des deutsch-sowjetischen Krieges im Sommer 1941', by Bogdan Musial.

Agadanik
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#2

Post by Agadanik » 15 Jan 2005, 01:39

michael mills wrote: The recommendation, made in 1944, to kill all prisoners and Jews who could not be evacuated in time in the case of an enemy advance, was no doubt based on the example of Soviet practice in June-July 1941.
Michael,
No doubt it wasn’t. I am sure you know that prior to July 1944 Germans have indiscriminately murdered millions of innocent civilians in territories they occupied.

This is what Bogdan Musial, whose book you cite in your post, has to say on the subject (my translation):
“Under no circumstances can it be claimed that it was only the crimes committed by the Soviets which forced the Germans to prosecute that cruel a war. Even prior to June 22 1941 it was obvious to the German side that the war with the USSR will be one of annihilation, and proper preparations for such war were made”.
http://www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_910.html


michael mills
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#3

Post by michael mills » 15 Jan 2005, 06:00

I am sure you know that prior to July 1944 Germans have indiscriminately murdered millions of innocent civilians in territories they occupied.
As I wrote, the German Government copied the radical exterminationist methods of the Soviet Government.

David Thompson
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#4

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jan 2005, 06:37

As I wrote, the German Government copied the radical exterminationist methods of the Soviet Government.
Where is the Soviet version of Belzec and Sobibor?

Agadanik
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#5

Post by Agadanik » 15 Jan 2005, 22:59

michael mills wrote:As I wrote, the German Government copied the radical exterminationist methods of the Soviet Government.
And how can you substantiate that, Michael, other than by your own opinion?
-a

michael mills
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#6

Post by michael mills » 16 Jan 2005, 00:52

Where is the Soviet version of Belzec and Sobibor?
A red herring (no pun intended).

The actual method of the elimination en masse of entire unwanted populations, whether by active killing in camps or in the field, or by passive killing through mass starvation, is not the issue.

The crucial factor is the radical policy of eliminating entire unwanted population groups, whether defined by ethnicity or socio-economic status or some other criteria.

That radical policy was initiated by the Bolshevik regime in Russia soon after it came to power, and continued off and on until 1941, reaching its climax under Stalin. Bolshevik exterminationist practice was imitated by the National Socialist regime in Germany, at first only on a very minor scale, but then in full force after the commencement of the armed ideological clash between Bolshevism and National Socialism.

While there may be no exact Soviet equivalent of Belzec and Sobibor, there were certainly direct equivalents of the massacre at Babi Yar and similar mass-killings in the field perpetrated by German security forces.

Once such was a massacre by Bolshevik forces in a ravine near Saratov in the early 1920s, described in the book "Red Terror in Russia" by the Socialist exile Sergei Mel'gunov (Westport, Conn, Hyperion Press, 1975; translation of "Krasnyi Terror v Rossii", reprint of the 1926 edition published by J.M. Dent. London).

The description of the massacre is very similar to that of the massacre at Babi Yar, down to the dynamiting of the ravine walls to cover the bodies and the wounded who managed to dig their way out and return to their homes, giving everyone an awful fright.

It appears that rather than set up extermination camps, the Soviet security forces preferred to do their mass killing in the field, at a wide number of killing fields, a modus operandi which the German security forces copied when they invaded the Soviet Union.

One of those killing fields was at Kuropaty, near Minsk. Many tens of thousands of victims were killed there by NKVD executioners, the executions continuing until just before the arrival of German forces.

In comparing the actual extermination methodologies employed by the Soviet Union and Germany, one must take into account the difference in their geographical situation.

If the Soviet Government wanted to eliminate a particular population group, it could simply deport it to the distant Arctic wastes and leave it there to disappear through cold and starvation.

That possibility was not open to the German Government, which had to resort to extermination camps and active killing by mechanical means.

As a matter of fact, at one point the German Government was considering a direct imitation of Soviet practice by deporting Jews to the White Sea area, where the Bolshevik regime had extablished its first concentration camps. But that plan fell through because of the German failure to capture those regions.

Agadanik
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#7

Post by Agadanik » 16 Jan 2005, 02:53

michael mills wrote:As a matter of fact, at one point the German Government was considering a direct imitation of Soviet practice [...]
Michael, once again: where is the proof that the Germans learned the art and practice of extermination from the Soviets?

David Thompson
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#8

Post by David Thompson » 16 Jan 2005, 05:12

Michael -- You said:
The actual method of the elimination en masse of entire unwanted populations, whether by active killing in camps or in the field, or by passive killing through mass starvation, is not the issue.

The crucial factor is the radical policy of eliminating entire unwanted population groups, whether defined by ethnicity or socio-economic status or some other criteria.
What entire unwanted population groups did the Soviets eliminate?

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WalterS
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#9

Post by WalterS » 16 Jan 2005, 08:21

michael mills wrote: The recommendation, made in 1944, to kill all prisoners and Jews who could not be evacuated in time in the case of an enemy advance, was no doubt based on the example of Soviet practice in June-July 1941.

This is almost too funny. Now we have Mr Mills blaming the Russians for German crimes. Of course, this is no surprise because Mr Mills has blamed the Lithuanians for mass murders committed by the Einsatzgruppen.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 68&start=0

What Mr Mills doesn't point out is that by 1944 the Germans needed no one to teach them about mass murder.

This latest from Mr Mills is an interesting variation. Previously, Mr. Mills has told us that the accelerated murdering of Jews was because the Germans were running short on food.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 39&start=0


Now he tells us that the Germans merely emulated what the Russians did. I had no idea that the Germans held the Russians in such high esteem that they would go to such lengths to imitate them.

Let's also not forget that Mr Mills justified German "State terrorism" [a lovely euphemism for mass murder] against the Poles by blaming the Poles.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 333#611333


The one constant theme that appears in Mr Mills's posts is that the Germans never did anything wrong, and if they did, it was someone else's fault.

michael mills
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#10

Post by michael mills » 17 Jan 2005, 02:54

What entire unwanted population groups did the Soviets eliminate?
The Soviet Government did not concentrate its exterminatory activity against any one ethnic group.

Rather, it exterminated particular socio-economic sub-groups within a large number of the ethnic groups comprising the Soviet population.

When a particular group was targeted, the members comprising it were killed, either actively or passively, simply by virtue of being members of that group, and not as individuals who had done something (although particular members of the group may have been involved in "anti-Soviet activity".

Examples of such sub-groups that were the targets of Soviet eliminationist violence:

Inhabitants of various peasant villages in the Tambov and other regions, exterminated during the war on the anti-Bolshevik peasantry in the period 1918-21, a war waged by the Red Army under the leadership of General Tukhachevskii, using poison gas among other methods.

The "Raskazachivanie" of 1920-21, during which parts of the Don Cossack population classified as anti-Soviet were deported and destroyed.

The "Raskulachivanie" from 1929 onward, during which groups of peasants arbitrarily classified as the most dangerous group of Kulaks were killed en masse, while other groups were deported with a high death rate.

The selection of ethnic Poles as one of the three groups targeted in the Great Terror of 1937-38 (the other two being former "Whites" and "oppositionist" Party members).

The political and leading economic class of the ethnic Polish minority in the Polish territories seized and annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939.

There were many other groups defined partially ethnically and partially socially or politically that were destroyed as groups.

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Benoit Douville
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#11

Post by Benoit Douville » 17 Jan 2005, 04:09

It is rare, but this time I agree with Mr Mills that the Soviet NKVD summarily executed large numbers of inmates of prisons in Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia who could not be evacuated because of the speed of the German advance. They did the same in the Baltics State.

Regards

David Thompson
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#12

Post by David Thompson » 17 Jan 2005, 04:33

Michael -- You said:
The crucial factor is the radical policy of eliminating entire unwanted population groups, whether defined by ethnicity or socio-economic status or some other criteria.
I asked:
What entire unwanted population groups did the Soviets eliminate?
You replied:
The Soviet Government did not concentrate its exterminatory activity against any one ethnic group.
Once you settle on the point you're trying to make in this post hoc, ergo prompter hoc line of reasoning ("it happened first so it must be the cause"), let us know.

As for the execution of prisoners as a "clearing" operation, here is how Hitler explained his thoughts on the subject at a dinner conversation during the evening of 7 April 1942:
"If the slightest attempt at a riot were to break out at this moment anywhere in the whole Reich, I'd take immediate measures against it. Here's what I'd do: (a) on the same day, all the leaders of the opposition, including the leaders of the Catholic party, would be arrested and executed; (b) all the occupants of the concentration camps would be shot within three days; (c) all the criminals on our lists -- and it would make little difference whether they were in prison or at liberty -- would be shot within the same period.

The extermination of these few hundreds or thousands of men would make other measures superfluous, for the riot would be aborted for lack of ringleaders and accomplices. As for the justification of these summary executions, I've only to think of the German idealists who are risking their lives in front of the enemy or showing their devotion in a war factory, whatever their job may be, and employing all their efforts for the victory of the fatherland." (Hitler's Secret Conversations 388-9)
Note that there is no reference whatsoever to Soviet practices. Hitler didn't need the example of communist executions to teach him how to kill.

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#13

Post by Konrad » 18 Jan 2005, 05:27

michael mills wrote:
Document L-53: Clearance of Prisons [translation], in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume VII: US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1947. pp. 814-815.
The recommendation, made in 1944, to kill all prisoners and Jews who could not be evacuated in time in the case of an enemy advance, was no doubt based on the example of Soviet practice in June-July 1941.
Something does not make sense here:

Prisoners and Jews who were left behind in Auschwitz and Majdanek were not killed by the SS. They were liberated by the Red Army, as far as I know.

Also, if the recommendation refers to prisoners and Jews in camps in the Soviet Union, how did the Jews get there? I thought that the Jews were all killed in the Reinhardt camps with diesel engine exhaust fumes!

Something does not jibe here.

Where could I get this book? In the library maybe? I will try it tomorrow.

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#14

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2005, 05:42

Konrad -- (1) You asked:
Where could I get this book? In the library maybe? I will try it tomorrow.
Document L-53 can be seen at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 992#620992 You can find it at the library under Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume VII, US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1947. pp. 814-815.

(2) You said:
Prisoners and Jews who were left behind in Auschwitz and Majdanek were not killed by the SS. They were liberated by the Red Army, as far as I know.

Also, if the recommendation refers to prisoners and Jews in camps in the Soviet Union, how did the Jews get there? I thought that the Jews were all killed in the Reinhardt camps with diesel engine exhaust fumes!
(a) These two paragraphs are factually incompatible. If all the Jews had been killed there would be none to rescue.

(b) As I recall, you said just 6-7 months ago:
In my opinion the concept of the Holocaust homicidal gas chambers should have been abandoned long ago. It is artificially kept alive only with the help of laws against Holocaust denial (Up to 5 years imprisonment in Germany, in Austria I think up to 20 years). This will last only a short time, until someone will certainly shout "But the emperor has no clothes on!"
And everyone will laugh.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#480688

which hardly comports with your statement above:
I thought that the Jews were all killed in the Reinhardt camps with diesel engine exhaust fumes!
From this evident contradiction and your history of posts here I conclude your statement is deliberately insincere, and you offered the clumsy falsehood only for whatever "revisionist" agitprop value you think it may have on the uninitiated readers.

(c) Furthermore, the Jews in the Action Reinhardt camps were killed with carbon monoxide gas, not, as you put it, "diesel engine exhaust fumes!" This claim has been discussed and discredited so often here I am surprised to see it raised. Here are the main threads on the subject:

What kind of diesel engines where used?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25742
Apologia for Genocide
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 264#228264
Aktion Reinhardt, Treblinka etc.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12392
Belzec UNBOUND
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=427

(d) Finally, Document L-53, by its terms, applies to Sipo and SD prisons and detention facilities. Document L-53 would not apply to concentration camps, which were operated by a different agency --the SS-WVHA. Consequently, your remarks about the liberation of a few of the prisoners held at KL Auschwitz and Majdanek are irrelevantr to this particular order.

(3) You also said:
Also, if the recommendation refers to prisoners and Jews in camps in the Soviet Union . . .
It doesn't. Check your gazetteer for the location of Tomaschow, in the Radom District. It's southwest of Warsaw, well within the boundaries of present-day Poland.

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#15

Post by Konrad » 19 Jan 2005, 02:28

David Thompson wrote:(2) You said:
Prisoners and Jews who were left behind in Auschwitz and Majdanek were not killed by the SS. They were liberated by the Red Army, as far as I know.

Also, if the recommendation refers to prisoners and Jews in camps in the Soviet Union, how did the Jews get there? I thought that the Jews were all killed in the Reinhardt camps with diesel engine exhaust fumes!
(a) These two paragraphs are factually incompatible. If all the Jews had been killed there would be none to rescue.
I know. That is why I am confused.
(b) As I recall, you said just 6-7 months ago:
In my opinion the concept of the Holocaust homicidal gas chambers should have been abandoned long ago. It is artificially kept alive only with the help of laws against Holocaust denial (Up to 5 years imprisonment in Germany, in Austria I think up to 20 years). This will last only a short time, until someone will certainly shout "But the emperor has no clothes on!"
And everyone will laugh.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#480688
which hardly comports with your statement above:
I thought that the Jews were all killed in the Reinhardt camps with diesel engine exhaust fumes!
Mr. David, please!
What I believe concerning any homicidal gas chamber in the Holocaust story I better not bring up here anymore. That would infringe against the forum rules and would only get me into trouble.
(My problem with the alleged homicidal gas chambers is strictly on the technical and scientific (physics and chemistry) levels which is of no interest here and is off the topic of this thread anyways.)

From this evident contradiction and your history of posts here I conclude your statement is deliberately insincere, and you offered the clumsy falsehood only for whatever "revisionist" agitprop value you think it may have on the uninitiated readers.
I would consider this a personal insult, and an unbiased moderator would have erased your post.

Please refrain in the future from doing this again. Else I have to file a complaint with your provider.
Your forum may be privately owned and run, but the instant you go on the internet it becomes public.
(c) Furthermore, the Jews in the Action Reinhardt camps were killed with carbon monoxide gas, not, as you put it, "diesel engine exhaust fumes!" This claim has been discussed and discredited so often here I am surprised to see it raised. Here are the main threads on the subject:

What kind of diesel engines where used?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25742
Apologia for Genocide
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 264#228264
Aktion Reinhardt, Treblinka etc.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12392
Belzec UNBOUND
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=427
Well, if all these things have already previously been discussed then why not close the forum and just list the various links?
Anyway, I usually do not get my information about the Holocaust from the various forums.

According to the judgements of the Belzec trial in Munich in 1965 http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/just ... urteil.txt

and of the Treblinka trial in Düsseldorf in 1965 http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/just ... urteil.txt

it states several times clearly "Abgase eines Diesel Motors" (diesel engine exhaust fumes) and not a word of CO or carbon monoxide. The various posters on the links you quoted are obviously in disagreement with the findings of the German courts and therefore probably in error.
d) Finally, Document L-53, by its terms, applies to Sipo and SD prisons and detention facilities. Document L-53 would not apply to concentration camps, which were operated by a different agency --the SS-WVHA. Consequently, your remarks about the liberation of a few of the prisoners held at KL Auschwitz and Majdanek are irrelevantr to this particular order.
I have to check the book myself. Sorry. Mr. Mills uses the term "recommendation". Military people usually "order" and not "recommend".
3)
You also said:
Also, if the recommendation refers to prisoners and Jews in camps in the Soviet Union . . .
It doesn't. Check your gazetteer for the location of Tomaschow, in the Radom District. It's southwest of Warsaw, well within the boundaries of present-day Poland.
There may have been similar "recommendations" issued at an earlier time. I have to check this out in the referenced books myself.

Thanks to Mr. Mills for his hint into that direction.

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