~ Warriors of Eastern Europe in XIII-XIV centuries ~

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BIGpanzer
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#256

Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2006, 20:59

Hi, Lithuanian!
Glad to hear from you again!

As for the helmet types - unfortunately, I don't have the description appendix for them :cry: as those images were taken from the book about Battle of Kalka river (1223, Mongols vs Russians) without any descriptions in the web.
As I understand those pictures describe all main types of helmets, were in use in East Europe in XIII-XIV c.c., including Rus principalities. Of course, some of them were of Mongol origin.
AFAIK helmets No. 6 (1st picture) and No. 2-3 (2nd picture) you are asking for represent the so called Balkan/Byzantium type, used in Balkan countries, also such design was common in West Rus principalities and Lithuania.

The usual Rus helmets of the describing period should look like this I guess:
Image
Some of them didn't have nose protectors, also many types of Rus helmets were not so pointed.
Image is from http://www.shpora.org.ua/forums/uploads ... 270540.jpg

About pavises. Askold supposed their Italian origin because of the name in some of his old letter. I know that Germans and Italians used such types of shields quite widely in XIV-XV c.c.. They were called tartschen on German. Hungarian knights also used them - there were special Hungarian types of small pavises for cavalry. But as for the origin of such shields - I don't have 100% true information. The influence of Italian military traditions was in some degree sufficient on West Rus principalities and Lithuania in XIV c. (some types of Italian shields and helmets were transported through West Europe and Crimea) - many historians mention that.
very probably wooden pavises were used by Prussians and Lithuanians before, seems you are right. And then such design spreaded all over the Europe as pavise shields for crossbowmen. Many German sources say about German origin of such shields, but this is possible true for small knight hand pavises. As for large pavises for the defense of infantryman - Prussians and Lithuanians could use them earlier as their armies included a large part of infantry. I need to check my literature sources more thoroughly.

Lithuanian pavises were in use also in West Rus principalities but only in XIV-XV c., not in XIII c.

Any additional info is very welcome. Lets make this question more clear!

West European pavises for crossbowmen:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... riere1.jpg
http://198.144.2.125/Armour/Full/Pavise.jpg
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 19 Apr 2006, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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#257

Post by Lithuanian » 19 Apr 2006, 12:50

Hello BIGpanzer!

Had a nice Easter?

Firstly about helmets. Particularly I am interesting in peklhube type helmet, which is quite similar to some which I pointed earlier. By some scholars peklhube is Lithuanian origin, personally I do not have many info about it and I cant make any judgment about Lithuanian origin. Maybe you, BP, have some info about it?

Now about pavises :) . When you posted those pictures I understand your reference to western sates.
Are these pavises are from XIV c. ? Besides I believe that they are crossbowmen pavises.
Yes pavises had been used across the Europe, and I do not doubt that influence from the west to Lithuania and parts of Grand Duchy of Lithuania was sufficient.

I talk about this tape of pavises and refer them as Lithuanian origin pavises:

This is early stamp of Duke Kęstutis (later he became Grand Duke)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... 781379.jpg


Stamps by tradition were individualized and represented the lineament which was common to particular region or ruler.

This stamp is very interesting, firstly note the short sword (archeological findings confirms); second a pavise, note a scale of the pavise – it is not big like crossbowmens`.

Second very interesting item is from Malbork:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... 51548g.jpg

Authentic view; very interesting too, from armour type to shields.
Note the (right side) pavise usage – you can see an very interesting fact - so called “inactive” position of pavise, this means that pavise is on left shoulder, despite that pavise is not “active” (in hand) it still protects the left side of soldier. Also note the “active” pavise in hand of other warrior. Teutonic soldiers have different identification.
It would be very strange that the craftsman , who made these scenes, identify Teutons not with characteristic items to Teutons but differently – if pavises was common to these type of teutonic soldiers why scene craftsman not showed pavises in Teuton hands but placed them to pagan ones! :)
So we can say – during this period pagans were identified with this type of pavises. Later Teutonic order took this type of pavises and became using them to their deeds too.

Other item. It is a stamp of Duke Vytautas:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... -1379i.jpg

This one is not so great condition, and I have doubts is this soldier have an pavise, some scholars say that it is a pavise; most interesting the line in shield, also note the size of shield.

Nevertheless the same Vytautas had and another seal (a later version), but now he is Magnus Dux.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... 841413.jpg
Very nice example. As you see sitting ruler, referred as supreme one; but most interesting is the banners.

You can see a soldier in plate armour with interesting shield:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... 584741.jpg

You see the shield of bigger size (comparing to size of soldier), which could be referred as pavise.

So that we have ? we have some pictures for sure :) you see a pavises which not referred to Teutonic Order (at least in early stages) and have different sizes in usage. These things I call Lithuanian pavises, which later drifted not only to TO but and to Rus and other lands too.

If we talk about general origin of pavises we can find rudiment of them in Roman Empire and other that time states armies, which gain its view in Medieval times.

And yes pavises (not crossbowmen type) was used by cavalry too, and Lithuanian as well as in Rus horsemen used them.


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BIGpanzer
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#258

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2006, 17:26

Hi, Lithuanian!
I had a nice Easter and I hope the same to you :wink:

About helmets - I need to read some literature to be sure in the info I would like to post. At the moment I believe that such types of the helmets you are interesting in were in wide use in Balkan countries (South-East Europe) and in Byzantia. I also found a lot of mentions that Lithuanians used very similar helmets in XIV c. The same types were used often in West Rus principalities (I believe under Lithuanian influence as the part of GDoL). May be such design was really inspired by Byzantia (I think so), may be they were similar but independent designs. For example classical pointed Rus helmets were very similar to Persian/Asian helmets of the described period.

West European pavises I've posted above are from midXIV-XV c.c. They are crossbowmen pavises for sure they are large shields. Vertical "keel" was used not only for ground spear support, but also for hand in small pavises which increased the mobility and defense in combat.
By the way - you posted excellent historical images of Lithuanian pavises/armor 8O! Thanks a lot!
Short sword from the first image is really interesting object - AFAIK Lithuanians and Slavs prefered to use swords of medium length (~1m). As for "active"/"inactive" positions of pavise (your 2nd image) - also interesting, but the same positions could be used with every type of hand shields, am I right? The type of triangle shield, which Teuton on the image had, was also used widely in East Europe since XIV c.

Classical Rus shield ( http://klamorujie.narod.ru/vasin1.jpg ) began to replace with triangular shield and pavise in West Rus principalities in XIV c.
But some "intermediate" types of shields (note the left one with "keel") also existed:
http://klamorujie.narod.ru/vasin4.jpg

Regards, BP

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#259

Post by Lithuanian » 19 Apr 2006, 20:21

I had a nice Easter and I hope the same to you
Thank you, I am had very nice Easter indeed and the pope Benedict spoke some Lithuanian words during the mass :)
About helmets - I need to read some literature to be sure in the info I would like to post.
I also found a lot of mentions that Lithuanians used very similar helmets in XIV c.
I would be very pleased if you do so. BTW what military books do hold this great information?
By the way - you posted excellent historical images of Lithuanian pavises/armor ! Thanks a lot!
No problem! Enjoy! ;)
Short sword from the first image is really interesting object - AFAIK Lithuanians and Slavs prefered to use swords of medium length (~1m).


Yes Lithuanian used and medium length swords too. In parallel (at least at the end of XIV) with short swords.
Something like this short sword:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... sDurkl.jpg
(end of XIVc.)

And mine approx. measurement: :D
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/ ... ca44-5.jpg
Quite similar to Pompeii type Roman swords, at least in length.
As for "active"/"inactive" positions of pavise (your 2nd image) - also interesting, but the same positions could be used with every type of hand shields, am I right?
For example kite form shields usually were place on the back fully (and round too). I saw that triangle shield was placed on soldiers back too. What the pavise makes so special for use on shoulder is groove in opposite side , for the groove and strap the shield could be extra stable on the shoulder.
The type of triangle shield, which Teuton on the image had, was also used widely in East Europe since XIV c.
Yes it was used.

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#260

Post by Thracian » 12 May 2006, 19:06

Hello to everyone on the forums! :D

I've made some research on medieval bulgarian armors, arms and eqiupment for a strategy-game mod (aside from my knowledge from books and museums), if anyone is interested I can post some info and pics. :roll:

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BIGpanzer
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#261

Post by BIGpanzer » 12 May 2006, 19:09

Hello, Thracian!
Welcome to our discussion and please post your info! :)

There is some short info about Bulgarian (South Slavs) warriors here, but not a lot very unfortunately. In addition I've posted here some short info about famous battles of the describing period, in which Bulgarians took place.

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#262

Post by Thracian » 15 May 2006, 12:30

Sorry about the picture-heavy post! :|
Since the topic is about XIII-XIVth centuries, I'll limit my info to that era:

Infantry-
Bulgarian XIIIth century infantry wore chain mail armor, usually reaching to the waist or hips and with either short (more common) and long sleeves.
Image
Bulgarian chain mail
Image

More heavily armored infantrymen wore a hard leather corselet and scale/lamellar armor in addition to the chain mail. Additional armor protection was provided by bracelets and elbow guards.
Helmets were a variety of traditional conehelmets, modified European bascinets and Byzantine style helmets, with the first being the most common. Some may have wored chain mail helmets.
Bulgarian conehelms lacked nose guards and had an aventail. The helmet were sometimes decorated with a feather.
Image
XIth century helmets, History museum Kasanluk
Image

The most popular shield was the round, but by the XIIIth century Bulgarians had also adopted the kite shields which were preferred over the triangular Byzantine ones.
Weapons of choice were usually swords, but also included axes and maces. Bulgar infantrymen also carried a dagger in battle. An interesting fact is that at the Battle of Adrianopole in 1205 the Bulgarians used hooks to take down the heavily armored crusaders from their horses.
A typical heavy armored bulgar infantryman carried a spear, shield, sword/mace/flail/axe and a dagger.

Image
Bulgarian warriors defending Turnovgrad, 1393

Image
Bulgar infantry at the Battle of Adrianopole, 1205

Cavalry-
The heavy Bulgar cavalrymen usually wore a chain mail with either short or long sleeves, on top of which lamellar/scale armor. Another option was a hard leather breastplate with steel or iron plates tied in. By the XIIIth century Bulgarian cavalry armor could possibly have included elbow guards and knee-pads made from iron, bronze or steel.
Helmets were usually the traditional Bulgarian type of the conehelm which featured an aventail. Though not so common, versions resembling the sallet were used, as well as chain mail masks.
The shields used remained mostly of the large round. Bulgar shields were made from iron or steel, with hard leather underneath. Sometimes there was a spike on the shield, allowing it to be used as a weapon.
Image
X-XIIth century light cavalryman

The horses of the heavy cavalry had a decorative plate protecting their head and their neck was protected by a “belt” of hard leather or mail. Sometimes the area around the saddle was protected by chain mail and/or leather veil. Still, protection for the horses was usually limited to the head and neck.
Weapons of the heavy cavalry included a sword, composite bow (with a quiver of arrows) and a long spear. The traditional flag- the horsetail on the spear- was almost entirely replaced by Christian flags. Another traditional weapon, the sabers, though not uncommon was largely replaced by the sword. The spears and arrows featured different types of points.

Image
XIIIth century chain mail mask and mace, National History Museum

Light Bulgarian cavalry was very similar to the heavy in overall appearance. The armor of the horsemen was lighter, comprised of scale or chain mail reaching to the waist/hips and helmet. Light cavalrymen carried a long wooden spear, sword/saber and a bow. Horses lacked protection.

Later Bulgarian auxiliary horsemen (c.XIVth century) wore a long gown over their armor.
The clothes, traditional Balkan, consisted of strong long leather boots, linen/wool shirt (sometimes with a skirt) with long sleeves and leather pants.



Cumans-
The early years of the Second Bulgarian Tzardom, up to the 1260’s, saw the use of many cuman mercenaries. At the time of tsar Kaloyan the cumans in the Bulgarian army reached more than 14 000. After the mongol (tatar) invasion of the territories they inhabited many cumans fled south to Bulgaria and were later assimilated in the population.
Though cumans provided a strong allied contingent to bulgarian medieval armies they were never a predominant (or even a very large) part of the bulgar army in the XIIIth cantury.

The common belief by modern western historians that bulgarian didn't resist the Ottoman invasion in the XIVth century is largely untrue. By the late 1380's after the death of tsar Ivan Alexander Bulgaria had broken up into many small tzardoms and despots, the largest of these the Turnov and Vidin Tzardoms and the Despot of Dobrudzha. Many more existed in the southern parts of Bulgaria and other areas with population with bulgarians, contested between Hungary and Serbia.
Usually these were protected by small forces of few thousand, though well equiped and trained, soldiers which were easily overrun by the ottomans.
Thousands of bulgar soldier participated in the battles of Kosovo field, the armies of Vulkshin and Uglesha, and supported the crusades in 1396 and 1443/4. Major cities and strong fortifications also resisted, usually to the last man which led to the slaughter of the resistant population.


Image
Balkan, possibly serb armor XIIIth century

In his book "Jurney overseas in 1342" B.Brokier gives the following description to the armament of the christians [this could be either serbs or bulgars]:
"And I saw that they dress in beatiful chain-mails from a lot smaller plates than ours and simillar gloves. Such can be seen in the illustrations from the time of Julius Ceaser. Their armours reach to their hips, and in their bottom end they have attached silk. On their head they wear a round helmet, made around it [the head], which has a sharp tip half a foot long and 4 plates- one in front, one in the back and two on the sides, so that they cover the face and the back [of the wearer] from a hit with a sword, just like helmets with visors which are wored in France. They [the plates] can be bended, so a hat can be placed above the helmet, a hat of those they wera, though that is rarely seen. Many of them [the christians] wear another type of covers on the hats- nets. Sometimes they [the nets] are decorated with gold, so they cost between 40 to 50 ducats. But there are other, which cost 1 or 2 ducats, and they can resist a hit from a sabre, but the others [nets] are much stronger. This is how I saw them in the field [the christians]...they wear no breastplates, no kneepads, no other such things [from plate armour]."

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#263

Post by Lithuanian » 15 May 2006, 20:44

Very nice info, Thracian! 8O

Welcome on board!! I hope you will enjoy your stay.

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#264

Post by Askold » 15 May 2006, 22:09

Hey guys, sorry for being away, I promice to get back to the discussion very soon. Just wanted to share a good news with you - Knight's tower of Halych castle (Galich) is finally rebuilt! Another castle rises from ashes.
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#265

Post by Lithuanian » 16 May 2006, 23:25

hey Askold!

It looks very nice. Did only tower was rebuit?


P.S. :cry: European Commission prevented to introduce Euro in Lithuania from 2007 :cry: official reason - too "high" inflation rate. the inflation is "soooo huge" that it is only 0.1 (LT - 2.7 EU - 2.6) bigger then convergence parameter :cry: :cry: bastards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9qrO92xDpA 8O :P

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#266

Post by GoldenLion » 05 Jun 2006, 08:09

Sorry for interrupting your discussion or joining too late.
I wanted to ask if some kind of leg protection was common in Eastern Europe.I've seen knee-pads, but nothing more.I am also interested in gauntlets.

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BIGpanzer
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#267

Post by BIGpanzer » 11 Jun 2006, 15:30

Very sorry for the late answer, had a lot of work to do.

First of all I would like to thank Thracian for the extremelly interesting and detailed info about Bulgarian warriors of the describing period! 8O As only a few info about Bulgarian warriors exists in popular historical literature such info is very important especially.
No comments, just I would like to note that using hooks against heavily armored crusaders by East-European warriors was not so often (as it was inconvenient to use such hooks in close combat), the majority of infantrymen used long spears to take down the enemy cavalrymen. Nevertheless, spears with hooks as more universal weapon in comparison with hooks itself, were used by Rus warriors against Teutons and by Polish warriors also.
Bulgar shields were made from iron or steel, with hard leather underneath
Me seems that East-European round and kite shields (including Bulgarian) were quite light (designed for manoeuvrable combats) and were made from wood with thick leather covering over. Nevertheless, such shields represented good defense against bow arrows and sword blows. Sometimes shields were plated by iron/steel strips along edges.
By the late 1380's after the death of tsar Ivan Alexander Bulgaria had broken up into many small tzardoms and despots, the largest of these the Turnov and Vidin Tzardoms and the Despot of Dobrudzha.
Dobrudzha had the name Dobrotich in XIV c.
AFAIK 2nd Bulgarian Kingdom (1187-1396), formed after overthrow of Byzantium yoke, consisted from Kingdom itself and several Bulgarian principalities in addition. Bulgarian feudal lords strongly resisted the centralization attempts of Bulgarian kings. Bulgarian kings/tsars Petr, Asen (1187-1196), Kaloyan (1197-1207) were killed by feudal lords. Several more Bulgarian principalities became independent during the rule of Boril (1207-1218). But Bulgaria came to unification step by step, nevertheless. The economic status of Bulgarian cities increased as well as inner and outer trade relations, agriculture increased a lot. Also peasants wars and political successes (occupation of Thrace by Bulgarian army) leaded to the unification of Bulgarian feudal principalities. Bulgarian Kingdom became the largest and strongest Balkan state since 1230 (Ivan Asen's rule, 1218-1241), when Bulgarian won Klokotnitsa Battle and occupied Macedonia, large parts of Epirus and Thessaly.
Since 1330 the development of Bulgarian Kingdom was stopped because of unsuccessful wars with Serbia, Hungary and Ottoman Empire. After the death of Bulgarian tsar Ivan Aleksandr (1331-1371) his son and heir Ivan Stratsimir got Vidin principality, which caused split of Bulgaria into Vidin and Turnovo Tsardoms and separation of Dobrotich (Dobrudzha) region. So Bulgaria was divided into three parts at the moment of general offensive of Ottomans armies (1380-1390s).

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#268

Post by BIGpanzer » 11 Jun 2006, 15:46

Hi, GoldenLion!
As for the leg protection of East-European warriors. As I understand from my sources light infantrymen (archers, for example) could wear nothing for leg protection (only leather boots). But steel knee-pads were quite common, also heavy armored warriors wore steel plate chausses (made from one bended plate or from several vertical plates), also chain mail pants and leather chausses with small round steel plates were used often.
As for gauntlets - chain mail- and leather-made gauntlets were used, rich warriors used sometimed gilted lamellar gauntlets.
Heavy cavalrymen from slav states along the Western borders accepted heavy knight armor with full steel protection of legs and arms in the end of XIV c., but this seems to be quite rear I guess.

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#269

Post by Victor » 12 Jun 2006, 09:55

BIGpanzer wrote:Dobrudzha had the name Dobrotich in XIV c.
Dobrotich was the name of one of the despots that ruled large parts of it. A local lord, named Balica/Balik managed to grow stronger and stronger in the 1340s and created a small state in the region. His successor, Dobrotich, extended his influence over the Genoese settlements in the area and even got helped the dying Roman Empire with his fleet, earning the title of despot. All was lost by his successor, Ivanco, several years after his death.

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#270

Post by BIGpanzer » 12 Jun 2006, 15:38

Thanks, dear Victor!
I've read about this also, the problem is that some historical books (mistakenly or not) name the region to the South from Danube throat as Dobrotich. But you are completely right, Dobrotich was the name of the ruler of that region, which separated from Bulgarian Kingdom during the time of Bulgarian tsar Ivan Aleksandr (1331-1371). The son of Dobrotich, Ivanko, became the independent prince. This also "helped" Bulgaria a lot to be the split state on the eve of Ottoman invasion.

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