Le Paradis

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laidler
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Le Paradis

#1

Post by laidler » 31 Jan 2005, 19:18

i am trying to find out if there are any troops still alive that where at la paradis,may 1940.i am a living relative of one of the british soldiers that was killed that day.i wish to fiind out what was going through their minds.are there any books writen by any of the soldiers.i would be gratful for any help by anybody....thank you.

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Miha Grcar
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#2

Post by Miha Grcar » 31 Jan 2005, 20:14

This is no real help but I wathched a german documentary about the Waffen SS and there were two british soldiers who survived the massacre in it. They were claimed to be the only ones who survived. The documentary was filmed in 1999 I think (although I'm not 100%). The title was probably just Waffen SS, not much, but at least you have a hope that maybe those two lads are still around. Good luck with your search!

best,
Nibelung


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laidler
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la paradis

#3

Post by laidler » 31 Jan 2005, 20:55

sorry probably didnt make myself to clear.sorry to say but in fact 5 british servicemen escaped from la paradis 3 of them when the battle was at its peak.2 more survived the massacer at the shed.what im looking for is any german soldiers that survived the war,that were at la paradis at the time.my great uncle was one of the soldiers killed there,but his sister is still alive and is still looking for answers.she was 94 in jan 05.but it still haunts her till this day.

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#4

Post by Miha Grcar » 31 Jan 2005, 21:51

Laidler, I'm sorry to say this, but I doubt that there any of those men left, even if one of them is still alive you probably will never get him to speak about it...

best,
Nibelung

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laidler
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#5

Post by laidler » 31 Jan 2005, 22:18

hi as we speak im waiting for one of the gentlemen to get in touch,hopefully it will be soon.from what i gather 3 of the 5 are still alive.one of them has spoken about it.he was captured after he escaped and spent the war as a pow.but thank you for your intrest.

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#6

Post by Panzermahn » 01 Feb 2005, 07:25

Le Paradis atrocity was commited by the Waffen SS totenkopf unit led by Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Knoechlein as a reaction to the perceived situation that the British themselves had committed war crimes by using dum-dum ammunition against the Waffen SS troops. Although this allegation is unproven, the fact that it is the most likely scenario because Knoechlein's totenkopf unit did not commit any more war crimes in France except in Le Paradis. During Knoechlein's trial, the British judge stated that the whether the British Army had been using dum-dum ammunition is irrelevant. Knoechlein was charged for war crime because even if the British forces at Paradis (the Norfolks) did used dum-dum ammunition as the judge said, proper investigation and trial procedure should be conducted and the British army should be informed before any sentence could be handed down to accused British soldiers. Due to Knoechlein's order to shoot the Norfolks men without any proper procedure as laid down by the Geneva Convention of 1929 and Hague Convention, he was automatically charged as a war criminal even if he believe that the Norfolk men was using dum-dum ammo contravening the Geneva convention.

Therefore the conclusion is, the reprisals as intended and executed by Knoechlein was not a war crime, but the war crime at Le Paradis is the lack of procedure in determining whether the British troops are guilty or not according to the Geneva Convention. Which many readers misunderstood that reprisal shootings at Le Paradis was automatically a war crime. Whether the British troops captured at Le Paradis are to be executed or not after a proper investigation and trial by German authorities is a matter of conjecture to the readers.

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#7

Post by Michael Miller » 01 Feb 2005, 07:42

Panzermahn~

I'm not very Geneva Convention savvy, so forgive me if the following are dumb questions- is the death penalty the standard punishment for captured enemy troops when it is proven that those enemy troops have used dum-dum ammunition? And is use of dum-dum ammunition in combat more of a crime than the shooting of unarmed and wounded prisoners of war?

~ Mike

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#8

Post by Panzermahn » 01 Feb 2005, 08:20

Michael Miller wrote:Panzermahn~

I'm not very Geneva Convention savvy, so forgive me if the following are dumb questions- is the death penalty the standard punishment for captured enemy troops when it is proven that those enemy troops have used dum-dum ammunition? And is use of dum-dum ammunition in combat more of a crime than the shooting of unarmed and wounded prisoners of war?

~ Mike
That's why i mentioned that
Whether the British troops captured at Le Paradis are to be executed or not after a proper investigation and trial by German authorities is a matter of conjecture to the readers.
But on your question regarding whether the death penalty is applicable to soldiers who used dum-dum ammunition, it depends on judgement by military laws of forces that captured the accused soldiers and also the severity of the alleged crime. What is certain is that war crimes as Le Paradis is

a) lack of proper investigation and trial procedure for the alleged British Norfolk soldiers' crime is using dum-dum ammunition before handing down the sentence

b) The Wehrmacht did not inform the British Army and the protecting power of British POWs (I believe Switzerland is the protecting power)

c) The disproportionate shooting of the Norfolk men

IF let's say, the German authorities counducted proper investigations with officials from the protecting power of British POWs and a proper procedure of informing the British Army of the German military authorities' intention to conduct court martial for the captured Norfolk troopers for the alleged war crimes in using dum-dum ammunition and subsequently, by means of a fair trial the Norfolk company was found guilty, the number of the executed British soldiers would be less than what has actually transpired at Le Paradis. In this projected situation, the Germans handed down the death sentence to the commanding officers or any senior ranked soldiers of the Norfolk company they captured for allowing their men to use dum-dum ammunition, so could the British charged the Germans for war crimes of executing captured British officers or men of the Norfolk company that has been found guilty of war crimes according to the geneva convention after a proper investigation and a fair trial has been conducted with the observation of officials of the protecting power of British POWs?


If your questions of
is the death penalty the standard punishment for captured enemy troops when it is proven that those enemy troops have used dum-dum ammunition? And is use of dum-dum ammunition in combat more of a crime than the shooting of unarmed and wounded prisoners of war?
implies the severity of the sentence in comparison with an expected sentence for war crimes such as the shooting of unarmed and wounded POWs then i would like to refer back to the case where SS commandos of Otto Skorzeny's Jagdeverbande who were executed (i believe without any trials, please correct me if i'm wrong) after they were captured by US troops wearing American uniforms during the Ardennes Offensive. So would this be less severe than the projected case i had mentioned above?

Hope it satisfies you..

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#9

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 01 Feb 2005, 14:12

Le Paradis atrocity was commited by the Waffen SS totenkopf unit led by Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Knoechlein as a reaction to the perceived situation that the British themselves had committed war crimes by using dum-dum ammunition against the Waffen SS troops.
The whole “dum dum” bullet allegation was made up by SSTK senior commander “Papa” Eicke when he had to explain the situation to RFSS Himmler. The incident had caused Himmler some embarrassment since the German Army was asking for an investigation into the crime. Eicke was trying to protect SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein from prosecution for the shooting of the unarmed British prisoners. Knöchlein’s real motivation for murdering the prisoners was probably the fact that his 14th company/III Bat./TIR 2 had suffered severe casualties that day. He was pissed off, and wanted payback.
“Although this allegation is unproven, the fact that it is the most likely scenario...”
The allegation is unproven because it is a lie. Unless you want to explain away how the 100 men of the 2nd Royal Norfolk guarding the farmhouse at Le Paradis somehow became the only formation of the 300,000+ men of the British Expeditionary Force in 1940 France armed with dum-dum bullets.
“...because Knoechlein's totenkopf unit did not commit any more war crimes in France except in Le Paradis.”
Good for Knöchlein. The SSTK was involved in at least 2 other incident of shooting unarmed, surrendered prisoners during the 1940 French campaign - on June 19 (when elements of II Bat/TIR 2 killed 30 French Moroccan attempting to surrender at L’Arbresele) and June 21 (III Bat, TIR 1 takes no “Negro” prisoners at Lentilly).
Therefore the conclusion is, the reprisals as intended and executed by Knoechlein was not a war crime, but the war crime at Le Paradis is the lack of procedure in determining whether the British troops are guilty or not according to the Geneva Convention.
PM, your opinion has no legal standing, so it’s still a war crime. BTW did you know that German XVII Panzer Corps Commander Gen. Erich Höpner had heard that the SSTK was mistreating prisoners during the campaign and on May 24 - BEFORE to the Le Paradis massacre - issued a memo to all his troops that killing prisoners as a reprisal or punishment would be considered murder by an army courts-martial
(See Charles W. Sydnor Jr’s Soldier’s of Destruction p 109)

Whether the British troops captured at Le Paradis are to be executed or not after a proper investigation and trial by German authorities is a matter of conjecture to the readers.
‘BTW The German Army’s command was attempt a “proper investigation” of the incident (it even unsuccesfully tried to prevent any awards from being given to SSTK troops while the investigation was active) but with RFSS Himmler’s intervention the investigation was squashed - the first (but not the last) time German Army inquiries into W-SS war crimes were deliberately stopped.


BTW - Knöchlein neither had the authority nor the authorization to act as judge, jury and executioner against 100 unarmed British POWs. And the only “investigation” he conducted was the time it took to march the 100 POWs across the lane to the barn wall, set up 2 machineguns and fire them, then order the troops under his command to bayonet the survivors.

That’s justice?

i would like to refer back to the case where SS commandos of Otto Skorzeny's Jagdeverbande who were executed (i believe without any trials, please correct me if i'm wrong)
You’re wrong. The SS commandos captured wearing US uniforms and later executed were given court martials on Dec 21 and December 26, 1944. See Michael Schadewitz’s The Meuse First and Then Antwerp

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#10

Post by WalterS » 01 Feb 2005, 17:20

Excellent post, Rob. Thanks.

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Michael Miller
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#11

Post by Michael Miller » 01 Feb 2005, 17:22

What a friend we have in Rob. Superb analysis, as always backed up with good sources and sound, solid research.

Sincerely and respectfully,
~ Mike

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#12

Post by CHRISCHA » 01 Feb 2005, 17:34

Not only Is Rob-WSSOB's well articulated and researched, but a lot calmer than I could have been.

Panzermahn, do you think your post was necessary considering the context of the original post and the fact laidler has commented he is a relative of one of the murdered men?

Shame on you.

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laidler
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la paradis

#13

Post by laidler » 01 Feb 2005, 20:44

gentlemen...regardless or not if it is a war crime.i am a living relative of one of the 97 from la paradis.my grandmother who was 93 in jan 05 was the sister to one of the servicemen there.the british and canadian soldiers that were there, were mostly wounded troops with hardly any ammo and put up such a determined battle,that i think respect should be given to them soldiers who died.the ones that got away were lucky ones.3 of the 5 didnt even know it had happened untill after the war,as they were captured after a week on the run.there were naughty things done by both sides but one is not a means to another.all i care about is that a member of my family who was wounded we know this .fact.was brutally killed.

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#14

Post by David Thompson » 01 Feb 2005, 21:04

CHRISCHA -- Stick to refuting the argument on its merits or demerits, and avoid personal remarks in posts.

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#15

Post by TH Albright » 01 Feb 2005, 23:07

Great Post, Rob,,this should be the final word on La Paradis. I am curious about incidents committed against POWs prior to La Paradis which were of concern to Höpner. Also, SS-TK was not alone in shooting French colonial black troops; I understand several Heer units also committed similar atrocities throughout the campaign and that in some quarters, this was policy (due to the perception that these black troops had committed murders during the Rhineland occupation?? http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/cih2gm/van_gale ... ydney.html). It should be noted that Knochlein was transferred to SS-Totenkopfstandarte Oberbayern during the Polish campaign and may very well have participated in the massive shootings there of Polish civilians during Eicke's "police and security measures" campaign. The core troops of the SS-TV which made up the three Totenkopf Infantry regiments all had plenty of blood on their hands from Poland. It's surprising that more incidents did not occur due to this experience and Eicke's full bore indoctrination of the SS-TV and SS-TK division.
Last edited by TH Albright on 01 Feb 2005, 23:17, edited 1 time in total.

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