IMT - GG/ Protectorate testimony of Kurt von Burgsdorff

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IMT - GG/ Protectorate testimony of Kurt von Burgsdorff

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Post by David Thompson » 15 Feb 2005, 03:46

Here is the IMT testimony of Dr. Kurt von Burgsdorff, Governor of Krakow in Nazi-occupied Poland and Under Secretary of State for Administration in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, given to the International Military Tribunal (IMT) on 18 April 1946. It is available on-line through the Avalon Project at the Yale University Law School, IMT Proceedings vol. 12, pp. 53-63.
DR. SEIDL: With the permission of the Tribunal, I call as the next witness the former Governor of Krakow, Dr. Kurt von Burgsdorff.
[The witness Von Burgsdorff took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

KURT VON BURGSDORFF (Witness): Kurt von Burgsdorff

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me:
"I swear by God -- the Almighty and Omniscient -- that I will speak the pure truth -- and will withhold and add nothing."
[The witness repeated the oath.]

DR. SEIDL: Witness, the Government General was divided into five districts at the head of each of which there was a governor; is that correct?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: From 1 December 1943 until the occupation of your district by Soviet troops you were governor of the district Krakow?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes. To use the correct official term, I was . . .

GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Mr. President, the defense counsel has put the question of the "occupation" of this region by Soviet troops. I energetically protest against such terminology and consider it a hostile move.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have just been told that perhaps a mistake in the translation has crept in. All I intended to say was that, in the course of the year 1944, the area of which this witness was governor was occupied by the Soviet troops in the course of military action. I do not know what the Soviet prosecutor is protesting against; it is at any rate far from my intention to make any hostile statement here.

THE PRESIDENT: I think the point was, it was not an occupation, it was a liberation by the Russian Army.

DR. SEIDL: Of course; I did not want to say any more than that the German troops were driven out of this area by the Soviet troops.

Witness, will you please continue with your answer?

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VON BURGSDORFF: I was entrusted with exercising the duties of a governor -- that is the correct official expression. Until a few months ago I was still an officer of the Wehrmacht, and during my entire activity in Krakow I remained an officer of the Wehrmacht.

DR. SEIDL: Witness, according to your observations, what basically was the attitude of the Governor General toward the Polish and Ukrainian people?

VON BURGSDORFF: I want to emphasize that I can answer only for the year 1944. At that time the attitude of the Governor General was that he wished to live in peace with the people.

DR. SEIDL: Is it correct that already in 1942 the Governor General had given the governors the opportunity of setting up administrative committees, comprised of Poles and Ukrainians, attached to the district chiefs?

VON BURGSDORFF: There was a governmental decree to this effect. Whether that was in 1942 or not I do not know.

DR. SEIDL: Did you yourself make use of the authorization contained therein, and did you establish such administrative committees?

VON BURGSDORFF: In the district of Krakow I had such a committee established at once for every district chief.

DR. SEIDL: Witness, according to your observations what was the food situation like in the Government General, and particularly in your district?

VON BURGSDORFF: It was not unsatisfactory; but I must add that the reason for that was that, in addition to the rations, the Polish population had an extensive black market.

DR. SEIDL: According to your observations what was the attitude of the Governor General on the question of the mobilization of labor?

VON BURGSDORFF: He did not wish any workers sent outside the Government General, because he was interested in retaining the necessary manpower within the country.

DR. SEIDL: Was the Church persecuted by the Governor General in the Government General; and what basically was the attitude of the Governor General to this question, according to your observations?

VON BURGSDORFF: Again I can answer only for my district and for the year 1944. There was no persecution of the Church; on the contrary, the relations with churches of all denominations were good in my district. On my travels I always received the clergy, and I never heard any complaint.

DR. SEIDL: Did you have any personal experience with the Governor General with regard to this question?

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VON BURGSDORFF: Yes. In the middle of January 1944 I was appointed District Standortfuehrer by the Governor General, who at the same time was the Party Leader in the Government General; that is, I was appointed to a Party, office for the district of Krakow. I pointed out to him, as I had pointed out to the Minister of the Interior, Himmler, before, that I was a convinced church-going Christian. The Governor General replied that he was in no way perturbed by that and that he knew of no provision in the Party program which prohibited it.

DR. SEIDL: What, according to your observations, were the relations like between the Governor General and the administration of the Government General on the one side, and the Security Police and the SD on the other side?

VON BURGSDORFF: Doubtlessly underneath they were bad, because the Police always ended by doing only what it wanted and did not concern itself with the administration. For that reason in he country districts also there was real friction between the administration offices and the Police.

DR. SEIDL: Is it correct that when you took office, or shortly after, the Governor General issued several instructions referring to the Police? I quote from the diary of the Defendant Dr. Frank, the entry of 4 January 1944:

"The Governor General then gave some instructions to Dr. Von Burgsdorff with
reference to his new activities. His task will be to inform himself, as a matter
of principle, of all decisive factors in the district. Above all the Governor should direct his efforts to opposing energetically any encroachments by the Police."

VON BURGSDORFF: Today I no longer remember that conversation of 4 January 1944, but it may have taken place. However, I do remember that after I took office, at the end of November 1943, I went to see the Governor General once more and told him that I had heard that the relations with the Police were not good and were scarcely tolerable for the administration. He replied that he was doing what he could in order, as I might put it, to bring the Police to reason. It was on the basis of this statement by the Governor General that I definitely decided to remain in the Government General. I had, as is known, told the Reich Minister of the Interior that I was unwilling to go there.

DR SEIDL: In your capacity as Governor did you have any authority to issue commands to the Security Police and the SD in your district?

VON BURGSDORFF: None whatsoever.

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DR. SEIDL: Did you yourself ever see a police directive?

VON BURGSDORFF: Never. With the Police, orders are passed down vertically, that is, directly from the Higher SS and Police Leader to the SS and Police Leader respectively -- and that is probably the usual way -- from the chief of the Security Police to the unit commander of the Security Police.

DR. SEIDL: In your activity as Governor did you have anything to do with the administration of concentration camps?

VON BURGSDORFF: Never.

DR. SEIDL: Do you know who administered the concentration camps?

VON BURGSDORFF: No, not from my own experience; but I have heard that there was some central office in Berlin under the Reichsfuehrer SS.

DR. SEIDL: When did you hear for the first time of the Maidanek concentration camp?

VON BURGSDORFF: From you, about a fortnight ago.

DR. SEIDL: You want to tell the Tribunal under oath . . .

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: . . . that you, although you were Governor of Krakow In the occupied Polish territory, did not learn about that until during your captivity?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes, I am firmly convinced that I heard about this concentration camp from you for the first time.

DR. SEIDL: When did you for the first time hear of the Treblinka concentration camp?

VON BURGSDORFF: Also from you on the same occasion.

DR. SEIDL: Witness, the Governor General is accused by the Prosecution of issuing a summary court-martial decree in the year 1943. What at that time was the security situation in the Government General?

VON BURGSDORFF: Again I can judge only for the year 1944. As the German troops came back from the East, it became worse and worse, so that in my district it became increasingly difficult to carry out any kind of administration.

DR. SEIDL: According to your observations what was the economic situation like in the agricultural and industrial sectors of your district, and is the statement justified that, allowing for wartime conditions, the administration of the Government General had done everything to promote economy?

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VON BURGSDORFF: Economy in my district was at full force in 1944 both in industry and in agriculture. Some industries had been transferred from the Reich to the Government General; and, as far as agriculture was concerned, the administration imported large quantities of fertilizers and seeds and the like. Horse breeding was also greatly promoted in my district.

DR. SEIDL: The Defendant Dr. Frank is accused of not having done everything that was necessary with regard to public health and sanitary conditions. What can you say about this point?

VON BURGSDORFF: I can say that in my district -- again speaking of 1944 -- hospitals were improved and new ones installed. A great deal was done, especially in the fighting of epidemics. Typhus, dysentery, and typhoid were greatly reduced by inoculation.

DR. SEIDL: The Defendant Frank is also accused of having neglected higher education. Do you know anything about the conditions in the Government General in regard to this?

VON BURGSDORFF: When I came into the Government General there was no longer any higher education at all. On the basis of other experiences I suggested immediately that Polish universities be opened again. I contacted the president of the main department for education, who told me that the government was already entertaining such plans. In every one of my monthly reports I pointed cut the necessity for Polish universities, because within a short time, or more correctly in a few years' time, there would be a shortage of technicians, doctors, and veterinarians.

DR. SEIDL: Now, one last question. There was a so-called sphere of activity of the NSDAP in the Government General; you were the District Standortfuehrer in the Government General?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: Witness, what, according to your observations, were the relations between the Governor General and the Head of the Party Chancellery, Bormann?

VON BURGSDORFF: I believe I can say without exaggeration that they were extremely bad. As District Standortfuehrer I combined this office with that of District Governor and witnessed the last great struggle of the Governor General against Bormann. The Governor General held the view, and in this he was justified, that it was wrong to combine the Party office with the government office. He was afraid there would be too much interference not only by the Police but also by the Party, and he wanted to prevent that. Bormann, on the other hand, wanted to establish the predominance

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of the Party over the State in the Government General as well. That led to the most serious conflict.

DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions for the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Defense Counsel wish to ask any other questions?

DR. OTTO FREIHERR VON LUEDINGHAUSEN (Counsel for Defendant Von Neurath):

Witness, you were at one time Under State Secretary in the Government of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia? When was that?

VON BURGSDORFF: From the end of March 1939 until the middle of March 1942.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: And to whom were you directly subordinate as Under State Secretary? The State Secretary Frank or the Reich Protector?

VON BURGSDORFF: State Secretary Frank.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: How did you come to know about the activities of Von Neurath as Reich Protector?

VON BURGSDORFF: From conferences with him and personal conversations.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What kind of work did you have to do as Under State Secretary?

VON BURGSDORFF: I was in charge of the administration proper.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Were the Police and the various SS and police offices subordinate to you?

VON BURGSDORFF: No.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: To whom were they subordinate?

VON BURGSDORFF: To State Secretary Frank.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What was State Secretary Frank's attitude to Von Neurath?

VON BURGSDORFF: You mean officially?

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Officially, yes, of course.

VON BURGSDORFF: Herr Von Neurath tried at first to get on with Herr Frank; but the stronger Frank's position became, the more impossible that was. State Secretary Frank, later Minister Frank, had behind him the entire power of the SS and the Police, and finally Hitler also.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: From whom did Frank get his orders directly?

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VON BURGSDORFF: As far as I know, from Himmler; however, I saw that on one or two or three occasions he received direct orders from Hitler.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: And that happened mostly without Von Neurath being consulted?

VON BURGSDORFF: That I cannot say, but I assume so.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Was it possible for Frank to perform his political functions independently within his sphere of activity, or did he have to have the approval of Herr Von Neurath?

VON BURGSDORFF: Whether he was authorized or allowed to do so, I should not like to decide, but at any rate he did so.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Were Herr Von Neurath and Herr Frank of the same opinion concerning the policy towards the Czech people?

VON BURGSDORFF: I did not understand your question.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Did Herr Von Neurath agree with the policy toward the Czech people pursued by Frank or his superior, Himmler?

VON BURGSDORFF: No.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Could he carry through his aims?

VON BURGSDORFF: He could not do anything, confronted as he was by Himmler's and Hitler's immense power.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What was Herr Von Neurath's own policy and attitude?

VON BURGSDORFF: At the beginning I spoke very often about these things to Herr Von Neurath. On the basis of the decree of 15 March he hoped and believed he could get the Germans and Czechs in the Protectorate to live together reasonably and peacefully.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: But as Frank's position became stronger, that became more and more difficult?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you remember that in the middle of November 1939 serious disturbances broke out among the students in Prague?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you also remember that on the day after these incidents Herr Von Neurath and Frank flew to Berlin?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

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DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you remember that Frank returned from Berlin alone on the same day?

VON BURGSDORFF: I believe I can recall that Frank returned on the same day, but I do not know whether he returned alone.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: You don't know whether Herr Von Neurath returned with him?

VON BURGSDORFF: No.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything else about the incidents connected with the students' disturbances and what the consequences were?

VON BURGSDORFF: They resulted, as far as I remember, in the execution of several students and in the closing of the universities.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know whether the universities were closed on Himmler's order?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything about the attitude of Herr Von Neurath towards the Catholic and Protestant Churches?

VON BURGSDORFF: His attitude was always above reproach, and there were no difficulties with the churches during the time that I was in the Protectorate.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know that Herr Von Neurath was in contact with the Archbishop of Prague until the latter's death?

VON BURGSDORFF: No, I don't know anything about that.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything concerning whether, during the term of office of Herr Von Neurath, with his approval or upon his orders, art treasures of any kind, pictures, monuments, sculptures, libraries, or the like, belonging either to the State or to private owners, were confiscated and removed from the country?

VON BURGSDORFF: It is certain, absolutely certain, that he did not order anything of the sort. Whether he consented in any way to this I do not know, but I do not believe so. I remember one incident in the Malta Palace, where some Reich office -- I don't remember today which it was -- removed art treasures. Herr Von Neurath immediately did everything to make good this damage.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know that the customs union which had been ordered by Berlin from the very beginning between the Protectorate and Germany was not established for a long time because of Herr Von Neurath's intervention?

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VON BURGSDORFF: Yes. I definitely know about that. However, in the interest of the truth, I have to add that State Secretary Frank also was against the customs union, because, like Herr Von Neurath, he believed that the economy of the Protectorate would be damaged by the stronger economy of Germany.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: While Von Neurath was Reich Protector, was there any compulsory deportation of workers?

VON BURGSDORFF: I am convinced that that did not happen. Workers were recruited, but in an entirely regular manner. That was the case while I was in the Protectorate.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know whether Von Neurath made travel in or out of the Protectorate dependent on official approval?

VON BURGSDORFF: Whether or not Von Neurath did that, I do not know.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything about the closing of the secondary schools?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What do you know about it?

VON BURGSDORFF: I remember that the closing of the secondary schools was a necessary consequence of the closing of the universities. There were too many secondary schools in the Protectorate. Not all of them were closed by any means. On the other hand technical schools were greatly expanded and new ones established. I cannot remember anything more exact about it.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything about Von Neurath's attitude towards the Germanization of Czechoslovakia as intended by Himmler?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes, I remember the memorandum which Von Neurath sent to Hitler about the whole affair. That memorandum was intended to defer Himmler's plans for forced Germanization. Von Neurath expressed the view, which he had frequently mentioned to me, that in the interest of peace in the Protectorate he did not advocate these attempts at Germanization.

DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I have no more questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?

MR. DODD: Tell us, please, when you first joined the National Socialist Party?

VON BURGSDORFF: On 1 May 1933.

MR. DODD: And did you achieve office in any of its affiliated organizations?

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VON BURGSDORFF: I was an honorary SA Gruppenfuehrer.

MR. DODD: Any other honors?

VON BURGSDORFF: Then for a few years, just as I had been during the democratic regime, I was legal advisor to the administration of Saxony.

MR. DODD: Weren't you also an Oberbannfuehrer in the HJ, the Hitler-Jugend ?

VON BURGSDORFF: I once became Oberbannfuehrer on the occasion of the Reich Youth Leader's visit to Prague. But that was purely a gesture of courtesy, which had no consequences.

I should like to mention again, since you speak of Party offices, that, as was said before, because of my post as Governor of Krakow I was District Standortfuehrer from the middle of January 1944 until the end, that is the middle of January 1945.

MR. DODD: You also received the gold badge of the Hitler Youth, did you not?

VON BURGSDORFF: No.

MR. DODD: Weren't you in some way associated with Reinhard Heydrich when you were in Prague?

VON BURGSDORFF: I was with Heydrich until the middle of 1942. Then, as is generally known, because of the course pursued by Heydrich, I left the Protectorate, and at 55 years of age I went into the army.

MR. DODD: What position did you occupy with relation to Heydrich?

VON BURGSDORFF: The same as under Herr Von Neurath; I was Under State Secretary.

MR. DODD: Let me put it to you this way: You told us that you never heard of Maidanek, the concentration camp?

VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.

MR. DODD: And you never heard of Auschwitz?

VON BURGSDORFF: Of Auschwitz, yes.

MR. DODD: Had you heard of an installation known as Lublin?

VON BURGSDORFF: Of Lublin? Not of the concentration camp but of the city of Lublin, of course.

MR. DODD: Did you know of a concentration camp by the name of Lublin?

VON BURGSDORFF: No.

MR. DODD: You did know I assume, of many other concentration camps by name?

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VON BURGSDORFF: Only of German camps, yes-of Dachau and Buchenwald.

MR. DODD: That is all.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions?

DR. SEIDL: I have no more questions for the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Who is your next witness?

DR. SEIDL: The next witness would be the former secretary of the Governor General, Fraulein Kraffczyk. However, if I understood the Tribunal correctly yesterday, this session will end at 1630 hours.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now until Tuesday morning.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 23 April 1946 at 1000 hours.]

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Michael Miller
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#2

Post by Michael Miller » 15 Feb 2005, 20:07

Thanks for posting this, David. It's of particular interest to me as von Burgsdorff (full name: Curt Ludwig Ehrenreich von Burgsdorff) was an SA-Gruppenführer and his biography will therefore appear in my/AnDie Schulz's upcoming book on SA leaders.

Best wishes,
~ Mike


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#3

Post by David Thompson » 15 Feb 2005, 21:50

You're welcome. There are a lot of these transcripts lurking out there, but it's like a scavenger hunt to find them. I'll post them as I find them; here if they're on war crimes, and in your ABR/ SS&Polizei/ NSDAP sections if they're not.

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