Ships sunk by Italy

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
Fredrik
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Ships sunk by Italy

#1

Post by Fredrik » 08 Sep 2002, 13:10

How many and which British/American warships did Italy manage to sink during WWII? I'm particularly interested in ship to ship action.

/Fredrik

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Andy H
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#2

Post by Andy H » 08 Sep 2002, 19:16

I have some figures regarding Italian submarines during WW2.

From June'40 to Sept'43 Italian boats completed 1,553 patrols, made 173 attacks; fired 427 torpedoes; fought 33 gun actions; sank 23,960GRT of warships ( 4 Light Cruisers, 2 Destroyers, 1 Sub, 3 minor vessels and 1 Auxillary unit) and sank 69,960 GRT of merchant shipping.

:D Andy from the Shire


Fredrik
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#3

Post by Fredrik » 08 Sep 2002, 19:30

Thank you Andy!

Regards,
Fredrik

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Andy H
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#4

Post by Andy H » 08 Sep 2002, 20:39

Some more detail of the British Warship losses by Italian submarines

Cruiser Calypso sunk by the Bagnolini in June’40
Destroyer Khartoum sunk by the Torricelli (Which also sank) in an epic gun engagement
Cruiser Bonadventure sunk by both the Ambra & Dagabur in March’41
Cruiser Galatea sunk by the Dagabur & U557 in December’41
Cruiser Cairo & Nigeria sunk by the Axum in August’42
Submarine(s) Rainbow & Perseus both sunk by Toti in Oct’40 & Dec’41 respectively.

This further detail seems somewhat at odds with my first posting regarding Cruiser and Sub losses, not sure why the difference?

:D Andy from the Shire

gabriel pagliarani
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Ships sunk

#5

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 10 Sep 2002, 19:34

Sir Fredrik,
I can suggest you to visit the non official site of the Italian Royal Navy, as far different from the official site of the actual MMI (Marina Militare Italiana). In my opinion it is historically precise and it has a comfortable english applet for foreigners:

http://www.regiamarina.net/index_it.htm

Ships, men, battles, victories and defeats are there listed much better than I can do.
Best regards.

Gabriel Pagliarani

Joseph J. Cacciotti
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Ships Sunk by Italy

#6

Post by Joseph J. Cacciotti » 20 Sep 2002, 20:39

Fredrik:

If my memory hasn't failed me, two British battleships were sunk while at anchor in the harbor of Alexandria, Egypt by an Italian two-man submarine. Again, if memory still serves, one of these battleships was HMS Barham.

I am new here, so please overlook any mistakes.
Gump

gabriel pagliarani
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X-MAS

#7

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 21 Sep 2002, 00:32

Sir Joseph (..or Signor Giuseppe, as you prefer..)Cacciotti,
77 years after the sacrifice of the Confederate Ship H.L. Hunley, an incredible small submarine used by Southerns during American Civil War, that bloody lesson gave its fruits to the Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy). On Dec. 18, 1941 six "gamma men", scuba intruders of the Regia Marina trained for a "X-MAS" called operation left the "Scirè" submarine in the depths just out of Alexandria Harbour. Their weapons were 3 assault vehicles called SLC(Siluro Lenta Corsa= low speed torpedo), or "maiali". Each of them carried a 600kg charge to be left under the keels of the battleships of the Mediterranean Fleet of Royal Navy. The action was little less than a suicide: but the Regia Marina was desperately fighting against the Royal Navy in the whole Mediterranean Sea without any success and sustaining terrible losses: half fleet was damaged 10 days after the declaration of war in Taranto Harbour and the following 2 battles between the opposite fleets were lost consecutively by the Regia. After 18 months of war only a great percentage of italian families living close to the sea had lost a son or an husband or a relative in such a sea-struggle. "X-MAS" was an extreme attempt to change the desperate situation of Regia Marina. X-MAS had 3 real meanings: the 1st was "10Th Motoscafi Assaltatori Siluranti"because the submarine intruders called also "gamma men" came out this assault unit that during WW1 sunk the flagships "Viribus Unitis" and "Szent Istvan" by mean of small motor boats and torpedoes. But X-MAS had 2 other cryptic meanings: the date of the assault sheduled for the night of Dec 24, 1941 but it was advanced of a week by mean of the black moon and good weather. The 3rd meaning of X-MAS was from latin " X(morituri)-Memento Audere Semper." This motto was given to the assault group by Gabriele D'Annunzio during WW1.(To all men dying: remember to dare for ever) The mission never looked at the rescue of the six assaulters: if they had only a minimal chance to survive they will be kept as POWs till the end of the war. The ships sunk were the HMS flagship "Queen Elizabeth"and the battle ship HMS "Valiant". The 3 rd target scored was a petrol-carrier but the real target had to be or another battleship or a carrier, fortunately not in the harbour that night. All 6 men survived as POWs.

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addition to list

#8

Post by varjag » 21 Sep 2002, 12:33

I believe the British heavy cruiser H.M.S. York was sunk in Suda Bay on Crete, or at least so heavily damaged that she was abandoned. The attack was first claimed to have been by Italian MTB's - but later reports seems to indicate that the Italians used explosive motor-launches that were guided to a O-Point, where the operator decamped - but the launch carried on to impact. Another feat of the Decima MAS?

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Andy H
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#9

Post by Andy H » 21 Sep 2002, 15:15

Though not wishing to underestimate the great feat undertaken by the Italians, the Battleships wern't sunk but severly damaged as both were later repaired.

In relation to HMS Barham she was sunk by U331 with the loss of 862men and it one of the most vivid images played around the world when the ship is seen rolling with men visable on it's hull before the magazines explode.

:D Andy from the Shire

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Lupo Solitario
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#10

Post by Lupo Solitario » 21 Sep 2002, 15:26

the question, Andy, is that a ship sunk in harbor is quite always recoverable if you want to spend (and have) sufficent money in. To make a confrontation, of the three italian battleship hit by brits at taranto in November 1940, the Littorio and the Duilio turned back in service in few time while Cavour didn't only for lack of resources....Recovering a battleship requires months and in war they could be just the months you need

bye

Lupo

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Andy H
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#11

Post by Andy H » 21 Sep 2002, 15:33

Lupo

I'm just stating that the two British ships wern't sunk and yes I'm aware of the annology with Taranto. I don't count the Italian ships as being sunk, and most historical narratives about the Taranto raid mention how the ships were "Put out of action, for a period of time".
The Royal Navy didn't for one minute believe that the Italian ships had been sunk, but they were out of action, just like the British ships.

:? Andy from the Shire

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Differencies

#12

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 22 Sep 2002, 02:15

Dear Andy and Lupo,
all the deal is about the term "sunken". Andy said correctly that a ship sunken in less than 50 ft of water is less sunken than a ship in an abyss. By the way, for military strategy, it is far better to damage a warship for more than 2 years than sinking it in an abyss. Royal Navy was obliged to spend of lot of money employing heavy skilled workers from Scapa Flow in the attempt to repair the ships in the while both complete crews were out of the war, waiting for their old ships renewal. If both ships were sunken in an abyss, the same skilled workers had the time to build new ships but non in Egypt, far from home, but at home in Scapa Flow with all comforts. The remains of both crews had to be employed on the new ships immediately. No doubt a fleet seriously damaged far from home costs more than a new fleet. This is the tactic both Navies used when possible as an expansion of "fleet in being" strategy. A seriously wounded enemy can be faced always better than the replacements of a killed enemy during an extreme modern conflict. (Ho Chi Minh)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Replying to Varjag,
probably your enquiry is about the most hazardous, bloody and unlucky feat that X-MAS never attempted before. It happened on July 25th-26th , 1941 six months before Alexandria.The feat was a failed Italian attempt to attack Malta by the 10th Light Flotilla. A group of insidious weapons, escorted by the torpedo boat Diana and by MAS 451 and 452, are discovered during their approach to Malta; Shore guns and aerial attacks bring about to the destruction of most weapons and the sinking of the two MAS. The Diana makes it to safety. After the success at Suda Bay (York), Italy’s 10th Light Flotilla directed its attention on Malta. Failure to capture these islands was undoubtedly the greatest downfall of Italian pre-war planning. Although Malta maintained a strategically unique position in the central Mediterranean, there was no initial Italian plan to occupy the islands. On the other hand, the British were considering surrendering the bastion to avoid undue miseries to its population.By spring 1941, almost one year into the war, the situation had changed. Italian air power had already demonstrated its shortcomings. The British had decided, under Winston Churchill’s pressure, to defend the islands.On the Italian side, Vittorio Moccagatta and Teseo Tesei prepared an enterprising plan of attack designed to cause great destruction to the Grand Harbor of La Valetta, Malta’s principal port.Commanders Borghese and Giobbe, the heads of the two divisions within the 10th Light Flotilla, opposed any action against the island, deeming it too dangerous. Borghese’s opposition was strong since he understood the true potential of the 10th Light Flotilla and also its weaknesses. Malta did not have in harbor any of the capital ships the 10th Light Flotilla was after, nor did it have any target of great military importance. Furthermore, the island was highly defended and, unknown to the Italians, protected by a radar installation since the beginning of the war. This radar set was capable of detecting incoming crafts several miles from the coast.Moccagatta’s and Tesei’s plan was audacious: Tesei with the human torpedo M.T.M. would destroy the outer defenses of the harbor, thus allowing for Moccagatta’s motor boats to enter the inner harbor. The attack would be proceeded by heavy bombardment from the Regia Aeronautica.The much promised massive aerial bombardment turned out to be a solitary attack made by an Italian light bomber. The British detected the incoming vessels early on and held their fire until they were able to effectively annihilate all fast motor boats. Tesei, despite having sensed defeat, continued the attack, thus perishing in a suicide attempt to destroy the outer defenses. The blast from the human torpedoes’ warhead was so powerful that one of the spans of the bridge of S. Anselmo collapsed, thus completely preventing the entrance to the harbor of the few remaining motor boats.Tesei would die in what many described as a heroic waste of life. The 10th Light Flotilla had received a terrible blow; Giobbe, Moccagatta, Falcomata, and Tesei had died. As a result of the crushing defeat and with the intention of quickly re-establishing the 10th Light Flotilla as a fighting force, Supermarina named Borghese as the interim commander. A new and much more successful period of the history of the unit had begun. In 1995, 54 years after the battle, I was in Malta for job and I can report that in all touristic maps of the Island the battle was still reported describing the Sea before LaValletta! Like a naval Balaclava...

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Andy H
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#13

Post by Andy H » 09 May 2005, 16:44

I came across a Admiralty inquest report recently concerning the sinking of HMS Khartoum in the Red Sea in June 1940.

I had always believed and thought that the internal explosion that destroyed the ship was as a result of the action with the Italian submarine Torricelli.

However the report states that a fire started at 11.50am, some 5 hours after the action with the Torricelli. Though the Khartoum was hit by gunfire from the Torricelli, none was near the later fire. The fire resulted in a Torpedo air flask exploding, with the warhead propelled through the deck house of the number 3 4.7"gun mount. The oil tank for the mount was ruptured which added to the fire, which eventually consumed the ship. The ship was beached and declared a constructive total loss.

The inquiry ruled out loss through enemy action or sabotage. The possibility of sabotage was raised because several members of the Toricelli's crew were aboard after the submarine sank earlier in the day.

The loss was more a case of very bad and inexperianced damage control than anything else.

Regards

Andy H

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JeffreyF
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#14

Post by JeffreyF » 18 Jun 2005, 19:34

Here is a thread that might be of particular interst in this conversation.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1619

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Hanski
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Re: Ships sunk by Italy

#15

Post by Hanski » 13 Nov 2010, 15:50

The bust of Teseo Tesei and the manned torpedo at the Museo Navale of the Italian Navy in La Spezia.
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