Panzers/Vehicles in Kursk

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Harawigr
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Panzers/Vehicles in Kursk

#1

Post by Harawigr » 16 Mar 2005, 01:06

If somone could give the numbers as well as what ever used...

any/all Vehicles used... armoured cars/panzers/trucks/Sd.Kfz's...

the numbers seperated in the divisons... if posible... if not then just IN ALL.

and if posible which areas were they mainly seen... and any pictures with it.

Thank you.
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Christoph Awender
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#2

Post by Christoph Awender » 16 Mar 2005, 01:31

As I tolad you already in other threads - PLEASE use the search function of the forum. There are many threads about Kursk and there is also a site named GOOGLE.COM which will help you as well.
Don´t let others do the work that you can easily do yourself.

Here a start:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=40317

\Christoph
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Harawigr
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#3

Post by Harawigr » 16 Mar 2005, 02:46

first off...
the reason i started new, was because i just needed the info together of what i asked because i need it for somthing ASAP...

now i have checked and yes, found afew info here and there... but then also the link you gave does have helpful info but its not fully what i was asking...

thats why, like i just said, started new, just for more persice and just of what i asked...

and about google, which i do use for this, but i havent yet because of what im dealing with about this... i leave a MSG on here for help, because im looking into the other stuff i need to about it... as i said, i needed it ASAP... that is why...
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Harawigr
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#4

Post by Harawigr » 16 Mar 2005, 02:57

I forget who on this forum runs this web, its good so far that i have seen... and is helping in my search on Kursk stuff...
but if anyone can give me a hand on the numbers of the units used...

im glad i have WHAT units used... but... need a number of each and how many in WHAT division...
here is the site http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenu ... gerafv.htm
Thank you to the owner... good site it is... helpful...

so as i said, if anyone can give me a hand on the numbers of units used... and THIS IS NOT JUST FOR ME TO ASK, i like if we can get talking about it... so THIS ISENT! just a request... its a "building" so we can discuss it more deeper on which areas of Kursk, and so on...




-
and to Chris, if you get pissed off that im again posting about asking... PLEASE SEE! that this is different...
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Christoph Awender
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#5

Post by Christoph Awender » 16 Mar 2005, 09:31

well.... you say
...so as i said, if anyone can give me a hand on the numbers of units used....
Do you mean how many units were used or which units used how many of which type of tank?

First you ask for a lot of information. It would be a monumental research mission to find all the reports for all the softskin vehicles and SPW you want to know if the reports still exist at all.
Anyway I can give you the numbers of tanks per unit on 1.July 1943. There were some minor changes until the battle but I have no time to look them up so you would have to go with these numbers.

2.Panzerdivision
12 PzII 8 PzIII(kz) 12 PzIII(lg) 20 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 59 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

3.Panzerdivision
7 PzII 8 PzIII(kz) 34 PzIII(lg) 17 PzIII(75) 2 PzIV(kz) 21 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

4.Panzerdivision
15 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 79 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

5.Panzerdivision
17 PzIII(75) 76 PzIV(lg) 9 PzBef

6.Panzerdivision
13 PzII 34 PzIII(lg) 18 PzIII(75) 32 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef 14 Flammpz.

7.Panzerdivision
12 PzII 43 PzIII(lg) 12 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 37 PzIV(lg) 7 PzBef

8.Panzerdivision
14 PzII 3 Pz38t 25 PzIII(kz) 30 PzIII(lg) 4 PzIII(75) 8 PzIV(kz) 14 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

9.Panzerdivision
1 PzII 8 PzIII(kz) 30 PzIII(lg) 8 PzIV(kz) 30 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

11.Panzerdivision
8 PzII 11 PzIII(kz) 51 PzIII(lg) 1 PzIV(kz) 25 PzIV(lg) 4 PzBef 13 Flammpz.

12.Panzerdivision
6 PzII 15 PzIII(kz) 6 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 36 PzIV(lg) 4 PzBef

13.Panzerdivision
5 PzII 4 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 50 PzIV(lg) 2 PzBef

17.Panzerdivision
4 PzII 1 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 50 PzIV(lg) 2 PzBef

18.Panzerdivision
5 PzII 10 PzIII(kz) 20 PzIII(75) 5 PzIV(kz) 29 PzIV(lg) 3 PzBef

19.Panzerdivision
2 PzII 5 PzIII(kz) 22 PzIII(lg) 11 PzIII(75) 2 PzIV(kz) 36 PzIV(lg) 3 PzBef

20.Panzerdivision
9 Pz38t 2 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 5 PzIII(75) 5 PzIV(kz) 40 PzIV(lg) 7 PzBef

23.Panzerdivision
1 PzII 7 PzIII(kz) 17 PzIII(lg) 3 PzIII(75) 30 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

16.Panzergrenadierdivision
4 PzII 32 PzIII(lg) 5 PzIII(75) 11 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

Panzergrenadierdivision "GD"
4 PzII 1 PzIII(kz) 20 PzIII(lg) 2 PzIII(75) 5 PzIV(kz) 63 PzIV(lg) 15 PzVI 8 PzBef 14 Flammpz.

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "LSSAH"
3 PzI 4 PzII 3 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 67 PzIV(lg) 13 PzVI 9 PzBef 35 StuG 40, 21 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe, 12 Bison

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "Das Reich"
1 Pz. I, 70 Pz. III, 33 Pz. IV, 14 Pz. VI and 34 StuG 40, 26 T-34 12 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe, 12 Bison.

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "T"
63 Pz. III, 52 Pz. IV, 15 Pz. VI and 35 StuG 40, 8 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe.

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "W"
4 PzII 1 PzIII(kz) 14 PzIII(lg) 8 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 16 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

Pz.Rgt.39 200 PzV
PzAbt(Fkl)301 7 PzIII(lg) 3 PzIII(75) 17 StuG
PzKp.221 15 PzIII(kz)
St.Pz.Abt.216 45 Sturmpz.
Pz.Abt.505 8 PzIII(kz) 7 PzIII(lg) 31 PzVI
Pz.Abt.503 45 PzVI
1./Pz.Abt.502 3 PzIII(lg) 1 PzIII(75) 14 PzVI

\Christoph
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emeny
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#6

Post by emeny » 16 Mar 2005, 12:36

What about the Luchs?

Didn't 4 and 9 Panzer Div. each have a Luchs Coy at this stage of the conflict?
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#7

Post by Christoph Awender » 16 Mar 2005, 16:57

emeny wrote:What about the Luchs?

Didn't 4 and 9 Panzer Div. each have a Luchs Coy at this stage of the conflict?
As I said at the begining of my post these numbers just include "Panzerkampfwagen" (except the three SS units) and did not list the Luchs. 2./Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 4 received the Luchs in September 1943.

\Christoph
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#8

Post by Harawigr » 16 Mar 2005, 22:03

---ADDED---
Just afew questions on behalf of Chris's post...
75/kz/lg... what do they meen?

and... why does the Panzergrenadier have Panzers...? i thot... they were just the infantry that would acompany the Panzer(reg/brig etc)

Thank you who ever can reply.


-----ORIG-----
Thank you Chris,
that is what i was needing... because i have pretty much all else...

do you know any number of APC/Armour cars units?

Thank you, alot.
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HerrGray
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#9

Post by HerrGray » 17 Mar 2005, 09:25

Hi,

75=7,5 cm or 75mm cannon
Kz=kurz, kurz is german, =short
Lg=Lang, lang is german, = long

Mk III's carried 3,7 cm, 5cm, or 7,5 cm (only short) cannons.... (the 5cm was either short or long)
Mk IV's carried 7,5 cm cannons (either short or long)


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emeny
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#10

Post by emeny » 17 Mar 2005, 10:53

Reliable sources (ie. Jentz) state that 4 and 9 panzer received luchs in May/June '43.
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#11

Post by Christoph Awender » 17 Mar 2005, 11:45

emeny wrote:Reliable sources (ie. Jentz) state that 4 and 9 panzer received luchs in May/June '43.
Sorry, he is right I saw the deliveries in September but they were not the first one.

Harawigr, there were Panzergrenadier-Regimenter IN a Panzerdivision and there were seperate Panzergrenadierdivisionen which had either a Panzer-Regiment or Abteilung.
Have a look on the Axishistory site for the OoB of a Pz.Gren.Div.

\Christoph
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#12

Post by Harawigr » 18 Mar 2005, 21:50

Yes, like i said in my reply... i know what a Panzergrenadier division is... im not new...

but what i dident understand was when you said the Panzergenadier had Panzers... which is why i asked i thot only PzGrndr were the Infatry of the panzers... which then they would be covering the Panzer Regiment as you said, and so did i...

if somone can still anser that for me please...


And thank you for the (75) etc input...
and also if like i asked, anyone knows the numbers of the armoured cars, (sp/non sp) Artilliery... etc...

Thank you for the help.
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#13

Post by Christoph Awender » 18 Mar 2005, 21:59

Harawigr wrote:Yes, like i said in my reply... i know what a Panzergrenadier division is... im not new...

but what i dident understand was when you said the Panzergenadier had Panzers... which is why i asked i thot only PzGrndr were the Infatry of the panzers... which then they would be covering the Panzer Regiment as you said, and so did i...

if somone can still anser that for me please...


And thank you for the (75) etc input...
and also if like i asked, anyone knows the numbers of the armoured cars, (sp/non sp) Artilliery... etc...

Thank you for the help.
Panzergrenadiere are motorized (trucks) or mechanized (halftracks) transported infantry. I don´t know what is not understandable about the fact that there were Panzergrenadierdivisionen which consisted of Pz.Gren.Rgts. and a small tank element?

As I already said above you will not get the numbers of soft skin vehicles, artillery and SPW for all the involved division. This information is simply not available no matter how many times you ask for.

\Christoph
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#14

Post by Christoph Awender » 18 Mar 2005, 22:11

Found a report for 4.Pz.Div. 1.Juli 1943

Numbers are Soll/operational/in repair within 3 weeks

SPW,PzSpWg,PzBWg 204/197/6
Sfl.Pak 27/25/-
s.mot.Pak 25/20/1
Art.Gesch. 43/41
l.IG -/13/-
s.IG -/3/-
8cm GrW -/43/-
M.G. 953/820/38
Kräder 1110/293/71
gel.Pkw 701/231/35
Pkw 152/188/15
gel.Lkw 814/382/49
Lkw 774/689/54
Zgm. 179/93/12

\Christoph
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#15

Post by Karl234 » 18 Mar 2005, 23:26

Christoph Awender wrote:well.... you say
...so as i said, if anyone can give me a hand on the numbers of units used....
Do you mean how many units were used or which units used how many of which type of tank?

First you ask for a lot of information. It would be a monumental research mission to find all the reports for all the softskin vehicles and SPW you want to know if the reports still exist at all.
Anyway I can give you the numbers of tanks per unit on 1.July 1943. There were some minor changes until the battle but I have no time to look them up so you would have to go with these numbers.

2.Panzerdivision
12 PzII 8 PzIII(kz) 12 PzIII(lg) 20 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 59 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

3.Panzerdivision
7 PzII 8 PzIII(kz) 34 PzIII(lg) 17 PzIII(75) 2 PzIV(kz) 21 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

4.Panzerdivision
15 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 79 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

5.Panzerdivision
17 PzIII(75) 76 PzIV(lg) 9 PzBef

6.Panzerdivision
13 PzII 34 PzIII(lg) 18 PzIII(75) 32 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef 14 Flammpz.

7.Panzerdivision
12 PzII 43 PzIII(lg) 12 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 37 PzIV(lg) 7 PzBef

8.Panzerdivision
14 PzII 3 Pz38t 25 PzIII(kz) 30 PzIII(lg) 4 PzIII(75) 8 PzIV(kz) 14 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

9.Panzerdivision
1 PzII 8 PzIII(kz) 30 PzIII(lg) 8 PzIV(kz) 30 PzIV(lg) 6 PzBef

11.Panzerdivision
8 PzII 11 PzIII(kz) 51 PzIII(lg) 1 PzIV(kz) 25 PzIV(lg) 4 PzBef 13 Flammpz.

12.Panzerdivision
6 PzII 15 PzIII(kz) 6 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 36 PzIV(lg) 4 PzBef

13.Panzerdivision
5 PzII 4 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 50 PzIV(lg) 2 PzBef

17.Panzerdivision
4 PzII 1 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 50 PzIV(lg) 2 PzBef

18.Panzerdivision
5 PzII 10 PzIII(kz) 20 PzIII(75) 5 PzIV(kz) 29 PzIV(lg) 3 PzBef

19.Panzerdivision
2 PzII 5 PzIII(kz) 22 PzIII(lg) 11 PzIII(75) 2 PzIV(kz) 36 PzIV(lg) 3 PzBef

20.Panzerdivision
9 Pz38t 2 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 5 PzIII(75) 5 PzIV(kz) 40 PzIV(lg) 7 PzBef

23.Panzerdivision
1 PzII 7 PzIII(kz) 17 PzIII(lg) 3 PzIII(75) 30 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

16.Panzergrenadierdivision
4 PzII 32 PzIII(lg) 5 PzIII(75) 11 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

Panzergrenadierdivision "GD"
4 PzII 1 PzIII(kz) 20 PzIII(lg) 2 PzIII(75) 5 PzIV(kz) 63 PzIV(lg) 15 PzVI 8 PzBef 14 Flammpz.

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "LSSAH"
3 PzI 4 PzII 3 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 67 PzIV(lg) 13 PzVI 9 PzBef 35 StuG 40, 21 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe, 12 Bison

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "Das Reich"
1 Pz. I, 70 Pz. III, 33 Pz. IV, 14 Pz. VI and 34 StuG 40, 26 T-34 12 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe, 12 Bison.

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "T"
63 Pz. III, 52 Pz. IV, 15 Pz. VI and 35 StuG 40, 8 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe.

SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "W"
4 PzII 1 PzIII(kz) 14 PzIII(lg) 8 PzIII(75) 1 PzIV(kz) 16 PzIV(lg) 1 PzBef

Pz.Rgt.39 200 PzV
PzAbt(Fkl)301 7 PzIII(lg) 3 PzIII(75) 17 StuG
PzKp.221 15 PzIII(kz)
St.Pz.Abt.216 45 Sturmpz.
Pz.Abt.505 8 PzIII(kz) 7 PzIII(lg) 31 PzVI
Pz.Abt.503 45 PzVI
1./Pz.Abt.502 3 PzIII(lg) 1 PzIII(75) 14 PzVI

\Christoph
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