Truth about alleged Germans vs Ukrainians soccer matches 194

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michael mills
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Truth about alleged Germans vs Ukrainians soccer matches 194

#1

Post by michael mills » 18 Mar 2005, 01:11

Back in 2003, two forum members with an apparent nostalgia for the Soviet era started a thread here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... r&start=15

on which they claimed that a number of Ukrainian soccer players were executed by the German occupiers for daring to defeat a German team at a public match in August 1942.

At the time I wrote that the episode sounded like an urban myth, and now at last I have found what is most likely to be the truth.

That likely truth is found in the book "Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule", by Karel C Berkhoff, published in 2004 by the Belknap Press of Harvard University Press.

Berkhoff's book is neither pro-German nor pro-Soviet, and obviously the Harvard University Press would not publish an apologia for the German occupation.

Here is the relevant passage in the book, in the chapter "Popular Culture" (pp. 202-203):
Sports played a small role in people's lives. Initially, Melnykites [ = supporters of one of the two factions into which the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists was split] in Kiev created the Sich, a sporting organisation that was used to stimulate Ukrainian nationalism. The German authorities quickly suppressed it. As for individual sports, some boxing matches are known to have taken place in Kiev in July and August 1942, but swimming in the Dnieper River in Kiev was banned from September 4, 1942. The only sport that received permission to undergo some organisaed development was football. In one Left Bank district, there were regular football games between Ukrainians and Germa soldiers even though the district commissar [= the local representative of the German civilian administration] told the local [Wehrmacht] commander angrily that German-Ukrainian sporting events were not allowed.

In 1942, several football teams competed in the Zenit stadium at 24 Kerosynna Street in Kiev. The team called Rukh was apparently the successor to the Sich and perhaps included Schuma [= members of the Ukrainian auxiliary police recruited by the German occupiers]. Start and Almaz, two other teams, were made up of players who worked at the bread and the jewelry factories. From June 1942, Start played four matches against German teams (antiaircraft gunners, pilots and railroad employees) and three against Hungarian teams, thereby attracting German, Hungarian and Kievan spectators. Natives and Hungarians paid five karbovantsi for each occasion. Start played its ninth and final match on Sunday, August 16, when it routed Rukh eight to zero. Two days ater, the [German] Security Police arrrested eight Start players and accused them of being NKVD agents. The charge was not entirely groundless, for many Start players had been in Soviet Ukraine's leading soccer team, Dynamo Kiev, which Ukraine's NKVD had sponsored (other People's Commissariats sponsored other teams): and during the German invasion, at least one of the players had worked for the NKVD as a car mechanic. Twenty-four days later, all but one of the arrested were sent to Syrets concentration camp near Babi Yar, where four of them eventually were shot. The other three Start players escaped, two thanks to police guards at a shoe factory where they were working, who deliberately looked the other way.

Berkhoof's quoted sources:

1. NDB (= Naukovo-dovidkova bibloioteka tsentral'nykh derzhavnykh arkhiviv Ukrainy = Scholarly Reference Library of the Central State Archives of Ukraine, Kiev), collection "Afishy ta plakaty okupatsiinoho periodu", 297-298sa, 300-301sa, 303-306sa, 729-732sa;

2. Nove Ukrains'ke Slovo (= the Reichskommissariat's one daily newspaper, originally published by Melnykites in Zhytomyr, later taken over by the German occupation authorities ), August 18,1942, 4;

3. TsDAHOU (= Tsentral'nyi derzhavnyi arkhiv hromads'kykh ob''iednan' Ukrainy = Central State Archives of Civic Organisations of Ukraine, Kiev), f. 166 (Komisiia z pytan' istorii velykoi vitchyznianoi viiny pry akademii nauk URSR. Obshchaia chast'), op. 3, 246/9-14: Sviridovskii;

4. D M Malakov, ed., Kyiv 1941-1943; Fotoal'bom (Kiev, 2000), 173;

5. Oleksander Skotsen', Z futbolom u svit: Spomyny (Toronto, 1985), 258, 277-280.
So it would appear that the urban legend of heroic Soviet soccer-players defying the Gestapo was born out of a number of facts that were grotesquely distorted for propaganda purposes.

Those facts are:

- There was a soccer team called "Start", containing many former members of the team "Dynamo Kiev".

- The team "Start" did play a series of matches against teams consisting of German and Hungarian personnel.

- At the last match played by "Start", on 16 August 1942, it convincingly defeated the opposing team.

- Eight members of "Start" were arrested by the German Security Police two days after that last match, and taken to Syrets concentration camp.

- Four of those arrested were eventually shot.

The elements of falsification are:

- The last match played by "Start", which it won 8-0, was against a German team. In fact, it was against another Ukrainian team, "Rukh".

(It may well be that "Start" was linked in the public mind with the Soviet system, given that many of its players were from the NKVD-sponsored "Dynamo Kiev", while "Rukh" was linked with the anti-Soviet Ukrainian nationalists, so that the match was interpreted as a victory of Communism over Ukranian nationalism, and that that "victory" was transmuted in Soviet propaganda into a victory over the German occupiers).

- The eight members of "Start" were arrested because they won the last match. In fact they were arrested for being NKVD agents, a charge that may have been true given the NKVD sponsorship of "Dynamo Kiev".

It is to be hoped that the facts outlined in the book by Berkhoff will put an end to the fable of the heroic Dynamo soccer-players.

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Re: Truth about alleged Germans vs Ukrainians soccer matches

#2

Post by Panzermahn » 18 Mar 2005, 09:44

michael mills wrote:Back in 2003, two forum members with an apparent nostalgia for the Soviet era started a thread here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... r&start=15

on which they claimed that a number of Ukrainian soccer players were executed by the German occupiers for daring to defeat a German team at a public match in August 1942.

At the time I wrote that the episode sounded like an urban myth, and now at last I have found what is most likely to be the truth.

That likely truth is found in the book "Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule", by Karel C Berkhoff, published in 2004 by the Belknap Press of Harvard University Press.

Berkhoff's book is neither pro-German nor pro-Soviet, and obviously the Harvard University Press would not publish an apologia for the German occupation.

Here is the relevant passage in the book, in the chapter "Popular Culture" (pp. 202-203):
Sports played a small role in people's lives. Initially, Melnykites [ = supporters of one of the two factions into which the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists was split] in Kiev created the Sich, a sporting organisation that was used to stimulate Ukrainian nationalism. The German authorities quickly suppressed it. As for individual sports, some boxing matches are known to have taken place in Kiev in July and August 1942, but swimming in the Dnieper River in Kiev was banned from September 4, 1942. The only sport that received permission to undergo some organisaed development was football. In one Left Bank district, there were regular football games between Ukrainians and Germa soldiers even though the district commissar [= the local representative of the German civilian administration] told the local [Wehrmacht] commander angrily that German-Ukrainian sporting events were not allowed.

In 1942, several football teams competed in the Zenit stadium at 24 Kerosynna Street in Kiev. The team called Rukh was apparently the successor to the Sich and perhaps included Schuma [= members of the Ukrainian auxiliary police recruited by the German occupiers]. Start and Almaz, two other teams, were made up of players who worked at the bread and the jewelry factories. From June 1942, Start played four matches against German teams (antiaircraft gunners, pilots and railroad employees) and three against Hungarian teams, thereby attracting German, Hungarian and Kievan spectators. Natives and Hungarians paid five karbovantsi for each occasion. Start played its ninth and final match on Sunday, August 16, when it routed Rukh eight to zero. Two days ater, the [German] Security Police arrrested eight Start players and accused them of being NKVD agents. The charge was not entirely groundless, for many Start players had been in Soviet Ukraine's leading soccer team, Dynamo Kiev, which Ukraine's NKVD had sponsored (other People's Commissariats sponsored other teams): and during the German invasion, at least one of the players had worked for the NKVD as a car mechanic. Twenty-four days later, all but one of the arrested were sent to Syrets concentration camp near Babi Yar, where four of them eventually were shot. The other three Start players escaped, two thanks to police guards at a shoe factory where they were working, who deliberately looked the other way.

Berkhoof's quoted sources:

1. NDB (= Naukovo-dovidkova bibloioteka tsentral'nykh derzhavnykh arkhiviv Ukrainy = Scholarly Reference Library of the Central State Archives of Ukraine, Kiev), collection "Afishy ta plakaty okupatsiinoho periodu", 297-298sa, 300-301sa, 303-306sa, 729-732sa;

2. Nove Ukrains'ke Slovo (= the Reichskommissariat's one daily newspaper, originally published by Melnykites in Zhytomyr, later taken over by the German occupation authorities ), August 18,1942, 4;

3. TsDAHOU (= Tsentral'nyi derzhavnyi arkhiv hromads'kykh ob''iednan' Ukrainy = Central State Archives of Civic Organisations of Ukraine, Kiev), f. 166 (Komisiia z pytan' istorii velykoi vitchyznianoi viiny pry akademii nauk URSR. Obshchaia chast'), op. 3, 246/9-14: Sviridovskii;

4. D M Malakov, ed., Kyiv 1941-1943; Fotoal'bom (Kiev, 2000), 173;

5. Oleksander Skotsen', Z futbolom u svit: Spomyny (Toronto, 1985), 258, 277-280.
So it would appear that the urban legend of heroic Soviet soccer-players defying the Gestapo was born out of a number of facts that were grotesquely distorted for propaganda purposes.

Those facts are:

- There was a soccer team called "Start", containing many former members of the team "Dynamo Kiev".

- The team "Start" did play a series of matches against teams consisting of German and Hungarian personnel.

- At the last match played by "Start", on 16 August 1942, it convincingly defeated the opposing team.

- Eight members of "Start" were arrested by the German Security Police two days after that last match, and taken to Syrets concentration camp.

- Four of those arrested were eventually shot.

The elements of falsification are:

- The last match played by "Start", which it won 8-0, was against a German team. In fact, it was against another Ukrainian team, "Rukh".

(It may well be that "Start" was linked in the public mind with the Soviet system, given that many of its players were from the NKVD-sponsored "Dynamo Kiev", while "Rukh" was linked with the anti-Soviet Ukrainian nationalists, so that the match was interpreted as a victory of Communism over Ukranian nationalism, and that that "victory" was transmuted in Soviet propaganda into a victory over the German occupiers).

- The eight members of "Start" were arrested because they won the last match. In fact they were arrested for being NKVD agents, a charge that may have been true given the NKVD sponsorship of "Dynamo Kiev".

It is to be hoped that the facts outlined in the book by Berkhoff will put an end to the fable of the heroic Dynamo soccer-players.
Michael,

thanks for the interesting post. Looks like you had successfully debunked a Soviet propagandanization on the football event at Ukraine


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Re: Truth about alleged Germans vs Ukrainians soccer matches

#3

Post by bratello » 24 May 2005, 14:03

michael mills wrote: - The eight members of "Start" were arrested (...) for being NKVD agents, a charge that may have been true given the NKVD sponsorship of "Dynamo Kiev".
Most probably the Start soccer players were NKVD employees in name only (calling them "agents" would be an exageration). They were drafted into Dinamo team for their soccer professionalism and only then were given a rank (if any). Just like being an accordeon player (or the First Balalaika, if you wish) in the in NKVD orchestra did not make one an active NKVD agent, playing for Dinamo Kiev (or Dinamo Moscow, or Dinamo Tbilisi) did not (and does not) mean that a player is also a policeman. Playing "professional" soccer did not leave much time for "agent" work and the team players were not supposed to do any.

By the way, A. Kuznetsov's "Babi Yar" (published in full in 1970) gives both versions of the event: the urban myth ("legend" as he calls it) and the researched version which is not much different from the one given by Karel C Berkhoff in "Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule"

Regards.
Last edited by bratello on 24 May 2005, 14:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Truth about alleged Germans vs Ukrainians soccer matches

#4

Post by bratello » 24 May 2005, 14:31

Panzermahn wrote:...Looks like you had successfully debunked a Soviet propagandanization on the football event at Ukraine
To put things into perspective, unlike the deeds of Z. Kosmodemyanskaya, A. Matrosov, the "28 Panfilovets", etc., the "Dinamo Kiev incident" was neither widely known nor used for propaganda purposes in the USSR (p. ex. as part of the high school history course).
Last edited by bratello on 24 May 2005, 19:38, edited 1 time in total.

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#5

Post by David Thompson » 24 May 2005, 15:26

Thanks, bratello, for bringing a more sober perspective to this contentious soccer story.

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#6

Post by mars » 24 May 2005, 17:15

That is purely rabbish,before WWII, NKVD controlled many departments inside USSR, besides the notorious secrect police, those border guard, coaster guard, internal guard and guard units, Fire fighter department and police department. So you can accursed a country Fire Fighter who never left his local town as a "NKVD agent" , and technically you were right, because yes, Fire Fighter department was part of NKVD, so stop complaining !
NKVD was very powerfull in USSR, and for one or other reasons, they sponsered many social activities, so if some one wants to justified the atrocities committed by German, DO NOT forget this excellent excuse

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#7

Post by michael mills » 25 May 2005, 01:04

A more sober perspective?

I would have thought that the more sober perspective was the one provided by Berkhoff in his book, ie that the eight members of the team "Start" were not arrested for daring to defeat a German soccer team, but on suspicion of being NKVD agents, a charge which Berkhoff thinks could have had some foundation.

The non-sober perspective was the claim by a number of pro-Soviet posters that the heroic soccer-players had disregarded a warning not to defeat a German team, and were punished for their temerity.

Is David Thompson saying that the version presented by Berkhoff was not sober? I would have thought it was. All Bratello did was to cast doubt on the charge that the eight arrested "Start" players were indeed NKVD agents. Perhaps they were, perhaps they were not, but Berkhoff thinks there may have been something in the charge, even if their work for the NKVD was only of a minor nature (such as working as a mechanic).

Is Bratello wanting to say that the real reason for the arrest of the eight "Start" members was their defeat of the Ukrainian team "Rukh"?

The fact is that a legend was made out of the incident, and that legend was peddled on this forum on at least two occasions. Whether the legend was a major factor in the old Soviet Union is not the issue; the issue is that it was presented on this forum as fact.

One wonders why Bratello did not come out and present the real story when the legend was first peddled on this forum.

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#8

Post by michael mills » 25 May 2005, 01:31

Another point to consider.

According to Berkhoff, the "Start" team consisted of workers from the bread factory, some of whom were former players for "Dinamo".

Berkhoff does not say why the German Security Police suspected eight of the members of "Start" of being NKVD agents, but it is possible that their names were found on a list of NKVD employees.

It would have been quite rational for the German Security Police to have disliked the idea of former NKVD employees working at the bread factory, where they were in position to carry out sabotage if some or all of them were still secret activists. No doubt the decision to arrest the eight players had no relationship to the fact that they were members of "Start", but rather to the fact that they worked in the bread factory and had had some sort of connection to the NKVD.

That sounds like a fairly sober perspective to me.

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#9

Post by bratello » 25 May 2005, 01:43

michael mills wrote:Is Bratello wanting to say that the real reason for the arrest of the eight "Start" members was their defeat of the Ukrainian team "Rukh"?.
All I wanted to say is what I said. However, if I was not clear, I am willing to re-phrase myself as follows:

Playing professional soccer for Dinamo team or performing in a NKVD sponsored orchestra (there was one) does not automatically make one an active functionaries of the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs performing secret police work (ie an "NKVD agent").

The "real reason" for the arrest of Start soccer palyers is not known to me.
michael mills wrote:One wonders why Bratello did not come out and present the real story when the legend was first peddled on this forum.
See poster's info in the left side column.
Last edited by bratello on 25 May 2005, 02:19, edited 1 time in total.

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#10

Post by bratello » 25 May 2005, 01:56

michael mills wrote:...it is possible that their names were found on a list of NKVD employees.
The Dinamo soccer team players could have even had NKVD ranks (p. ex. joining the Red Army soccer team automatically granted one a Red Army officer rank). It is doubtful though that NKVD left behind any of its archives considering the fact that Kiev was evacuated in a relatively organized manner.

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#11

Post by Kunikov » 25 May 2005, 02:04

You might want to read "Dynamo: Triumph and Tragedy in Nazi -Occupied Kiev" by Andy Dougan
Only one of the soccer players was an NKVD officer, the rest were simply 'NKVD only by affiliation, in the sense that it gave them the right to play for Dynamo Kiev." pg. 187, interestingly enough the NKVD officer was given up to the Germans by his sister who feared that if he was to be discovered during interrogation, the rest of the family would suffer as well. The reasons for the arrest of the start players is given as follows "The most likely scenario would have been to allow the game against Rukh to quietly bring to a close what had beeen a disastrous season for the Germans. They could then deal with the members of the Start team at their leisure. Whatever they had in mind, matters were once again brought to a head by Georgi Shvetsov, who behaved as usual like the steam engine which had given him his football nickname. Shvetsov could not bear the humiliation of the Rukh once again having been beaten so comprehensively and disdainfully by Start. As he had done after the first game he demanded that action be taken. The Start players, according to Shvetsov, were flouting the authority of military rule. They were living far too freely and their very liberty was a constant affront to the Reich. In addition, Shvetsov pointed out, every day that these men walked the streets was another propaganda victory for the communists. He, as an ardent nationalist, could see that, so they should also be able to see it. Shvetsov's argument found some supporters among the occupying authorities, but he did not offer a solution to the dilemma about what response was likely to prove emphatic and effective. It seems likely that the German authorities were planning to sanction the arrest of at least some of the Start players, probably on a pretext of theft or sabotage or some other infraction of the draconian rules. Now Shvetsov, who for all his bluster and bombast was still an influential member of the natiaonlist community, was accusing Start of effectively making fools of them. The Germans could not ignore this kind of protest at such a delicate period in the war. The order was duly given for the Start players to be arrested." pgs. 184-185

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#12

Post by David Thompson » 25 May 2005, 03:10

Michael -- Let's walk through this slowly.

Panzermahn wrote:
Michael,
thanks for the interesting post. Looks like you had successfully debunked a Soviet propagandanization on the football event at Ukraine
bratello responded:
To put things into perspective, unlike the deeds of Z. Kosmodemyanskaya, A. Matrosov, the "28 Panfilovets", etc., the "Dinamo Kiev incident" was neither widely known nor used for propaganda purposes in the USSR (p. ex. as part of the high school history course).
I remarked:
Thanks, bratello, for bringing a more sober perspective to this contentious soccer story.
You asked:
Is David Thompson saying that the version presented by Berkhoff was not sober?
No. I'm saying that characterizing the story as a Soviet propaganda legend is an exaggeration.

You also wrote:
The fact is that a legend was made out of the incident, and that legend was peddled on this forum on at least two occasions. Whether the legend was a major factor in the old Soviet Union is not the issue; the issue is that it was presented on this forum as fact.
I disagree. Extensive circulation and belief is what makes a legend out of just another story. We don't have that extensive circulation and belief in this case, so as far as I'm concerned, it's just another story.

As for the incident having been presented in the H&WC section of the forum as fact, the story (or "legend") itself is largely factual. Fact-based discussion is how readers and posters learn here, and how misconceptions (or "legends") are dissected. There are three previous threads on this subject. By reviewing the discussions, the readers can make up their own minds as to whether there was any "legend" in the first place, whether there was any "legend-peddling" going on, and whether it was the result of "an apparent nostalgia for the Soviet era". Here are the links:

Football match Kiev FC Start vs. Luftwaffe in 1942
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=31958 (last post 23 Sept 2003)
Dynamo 1942
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36359 (last post 21 Nov 2003)
Dynamo versus Germany: Soccer Match of Death
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=55651 (last post 29 Jul 2004)

Finally you remarked:
One wonders why Bratello did not come out and present the real story when the legend was first peddled on this forum.
As he has already gently pointed out ("See poster's info in the left side column"), bratello joined the forum 26 Oct 2004 -- more than a year after the first thread appeared, and nearly 3 months after the last post (29 Jul 2004) on the latest thread discussing the Kiev soccer team.

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#13

Post by bratello » 25 May 2005, 13:47

Kunikov wrote:..."Dynamo: Triumph and Tragedy in Nazi -Occupied Kiev" by Andy Dougan. Only one of the soccer players was an NKVD officer, the rest were simply 'NKVD only by affiliation, in the sense that it gave them the right to play for Dynamo Kiev." pg. 187...
Here you go.

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#14

Post by michael mills » 26 May 2005, 01:48

Bratello,

You wrote that the true, ie researched version of the story of the arrest of the eight members of the "Start" team has been known since the publication of Kuznetsov's novel "Babi Yar".

Do you know that version given by Kuznetsov? Are you able to tell us whether it accords with the version given by Dougan? You previously wrote that it largely accords with the version given by Berkhoff, which latter version accepts that the eight men were arrested as suspected NKVD agents, not as disobedient soccer-players.

It seems to me that the version given by Dougan, quoted by Kunikov, rests on a profound misunderstanding of the relationship between the German occupiers and the Ukrainian nationalists.

The German occupiers were not supporting the Ukrainian nationalists, but rather suppressing them. Eventually, in 1943, the Ukrainian nationalists rose up in rebellion against the German occupiers (although they continued to oppose Soviet rule).

As Berkhoff points out (in his thoroughly researched book, based on archival material - how well researched is Dougan's book?), the German authorities had banned the sporting club "Sich" established by Ukrainian nationalists, obviously because they did not want any independent Ukrainian organisations that could serve as a focus for Ukrainian nationalism that could become anti-German (as it in fact did).

The "Rukh" soccer team defeated by "Start" was an offshoot of "Sich", according to Berkhoff, so it is unlikely that the German authorities would have been too perturbed by one team of Ukrainians beating another team.

Furthermore, the German civilian administration seems to have opposed the sort of fraternisation inherent in Germans playing soccer with Ukrainians.

Does Dougan provide any solid evidence, apart from anecdotes or supposition, that the arrest of the eight "Start" members was a result of their defeat of the "Rukh" team?

It is most likely that there was no connection, and that the eight men were arrested on suspicion of having a connection with the NKVD through their previous membership of Dynamo Kiev. It is noteworthy that one of the arrested men was not sent to Syrets Concentration Camp; Berkhoff does not say why, but it is possible that there was an investigation and that man was found innocent and released.

Berkhoff is also silent as to why four of the men were eventually shot (when?). Perhaps they were shot as a reprisal because three of them escaped. Or perhaps they were shot as part of a general action to clean out the camp (when the Germans retreated?).

Whatever the case, the explanation that the eight members of "Start" were arrested because they were workers in a sensitive industry (the bread factory) having a suspected link to the NKVD (through their former membership of Dynamo) makes a lot more sense than the urban myth that they were arrested because they won a series of soccer matches against amateur teams.

I recommend the book by Berkhoff to all forum members. It is very informative about the situation in Ukraine during the German occupation. I would regard it as more reliable than sensationalist works of popular history.

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#15

Post by bratello » 26 May 2005, 17:38

michael mills wrote:Bratello,
You wrote that the true, ie researched version of the story of the arrest of the eight members of the "Start" team has been known since the publication of Kuznetsov's novel "Babi Yar" Do you know that version given by Kuznetsov? Are you able to tell us whether it accords with the version given by Dougan? You previously wrote that it largely accords with the version given by Berkhoff, which latter version accepts that the eight men were arrested as suspected NKVD agents, not as disobedient soccer-players.
Mr Mills, I've read the full "samizdat" version of "Babi Yar" more than 30 years ago and re-read it about 10 years back. Unfortunately, I do not have the book now and can not help you with your questions.

Nevertheless, I can vouch for the following: Kuznetsov gives 2 versions of event--a simpler "urban myth", and a more detailed one with dates, names of German and Hungarian teams which played against Start, etc. all of it illustrated by excerpts from "Novoye Ukrainskoye Slovo" newspaper which prompted me to call it "researched".

Kuznetsov's "researched" version "is not much different" from Berkhoff's one as it provides (to my recollection) similar chronology of events, same names of teams, etc. Nevertheless, Kuznetsov still implies that Start players were arrested because they upset Germans by winning all of the games. My previously posted remark (ie 'The "real reason" for the arrest of Start soccer palyers is not known to me') clearly indicates that I do not necessarily hold Kuznetsov's version of events as "true".

My comments in this thread concern only (to use your words) a) "a profound misunderstanding of the relationship" between NKVD and Dinamo soccer team and b) the fact that the story of Start players can be hardly called "a Soviet propagandanization" (unlike many other Great Patriotic War stories used in the USSR for propaganda purposes) which I know from personal experience.
Last edited by bratello on 29 May 2005, 17:46, edited 2 times in total.

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