I translated an article that today appeared in the online edition of the political magazine "Der Spiegel". The original article can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/6xelu
24 March 2005
Air Raids on Dresden
Historians Find Number of 25.000 Dead
Apparently the number of casualties who died in the Allied air raids on Dresden is much lower than previously assumed. A commission of historians appointed by the city of Dresden reached the preliminary verdict that 25.000 people died in Allied air raids in February 1945.
Dresden – The question how many people died in the devastating attacks has been an emotional and heavily discussed issue for many years. Since Dresden was filled with tens of thousands of refugees from the East during the time of the attacks, there were, sometimes enormous, numbers floating around. Many historians thought of a number of 35.000 dead as most likely. Neo-Nazis on the other hand liked to state a number of up to 250.000 dead.
The commission appointed by the city of Dresden now reaches a different verdict. The board presided over by Rolf-Dieter Müller (who is the director of the Museum for Military History Potsdam) went through all documents known so far and also through archived documents which were not analyzed before. As city speaker Kai Schulz announced today the experts now assume a number of 25.000 people who died in the British-American air raids on 13th and 14th February 1945 as most likely. The findings of the commission ought to be considered a “preliminary verdict” said Schulz. Although the documents analyzed so far allow no other conclusion. Documentary evidence or conclusive argumentation which would indicate a number of dead which is a multiple of 25.000 has not become known so far.
Schulz emphasized that the commission in its continuing work will nevertheless follow all indications, especially those that point at much higher numbers. This includes previously unknown documents, from which data about the number of missing, survivors and dead may be derived. The commission of historians has been appointed by chief mayor Ingolf Roßberg (FDP) and is expected to conclude its work next year.
Dresden - Historians Find Number of 25.000 Dead
Dresden - Historians Find Number of 25.000 Dead
Last edited by Kentaurus on 25 Mar 2005, 01:49, edited 2 times in total.
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David Thompson
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michael mills
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What this shows is that former surmises about a very high death-toll, based on suppositions about large numbers of unregistered refugees in the city, have been replaced by a much lower figure based on solid documentary evidence.
Of course, it was not only neo-Nazis who postulated a very high death-toll. Much of the writing about Dresden, not only by neo-Nazis, reported very high figures.
A similar process to that whereby the assumed 4 million death-toll at Auschwitz was replaced by a more reasonable one million, and continues to be revised in the light of ongoing research.
One can only hope that the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the German Government will be greeted with the same open-mindedness as the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the Soviet Government and the Governments of the Western Allies.
Of course, it was not only neo-Nazis who postulated a very high death-toll. Much of the writing about Dresden, not only by neo-Nazis, reported very high figures.
A similar process to that whereby the assumed 4 million death-toll at Auschwitz was replaced by a more reasonable one million, and continues to be revised in the light of ongoing research.
One can only hope that the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the German Government will be greeted with the same open-mindedness as the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the Soviet Government and the Governments of the Western Allies.
This controversy will not go away anytime soon. When the so called Roßberg-Commission, named after the Mayor of Dresden, was appointed sometime in February, to find out how many died, they tossed the 25 000 figure out before they started to investigate. They also claimed that it will take month, if not a year to come to a conclusion. This fast work suggests that somebody is interested in hearing a low number, now.
Just when this commission was appointed, an interview appeared in ‘Die Junge Freiheit’, with the German Historian Wolfgang Schaarschmidt. Here are some excerpts, and I am only translating roughly (if someone wants the whole article translated, let me know and I’ll do my best):
“Schaarschmidt: Die Zahl 35.000 geht zurück auf die Ermittlungen des kommunistischen Nachkriegsbürgermeisters von Dresden, Walter Weidauer. Der hat wohl etwa 45.000 bis 55.000 Tote „unterschlagen“.
(the number of 35 000 goes back to the investigation of the communist mayor of Dresden, Walter Weidauer, following the war, who probably ‘misappropriated’ 45 000 to 55 000)
Warum sollte er, Dresden war das Werk der Westalliierten, eine hohe Opferzahl hätte gut in die Kalte-Kriegs-Propaganda der SED gepaßt?
(why would he, Dresden was the work of the western Allies, a high number of victims would have fitted in with the cold war propaganda of the SED [east Germanys communist party])
Schaarschmidt: Zum Beispiel, weil man, als Weidauer seine Zahlen 1946 erhoben hat und der Kalte Krieg noch gar nicht richtig ausgebrochen war, in Nürnberg noch fürchtete, allzu hohe Zahlen könnten bei den Prozessen dort auch die Frage nach alliierten Kriegsverbrechen aufwerfen.
(for instance, because when Weidauer came up with his number in 1946, the cold war had not really started and there was the concern that too high a number would have resulted in some questions re. Allied war crimes at Nürnberg)
Das ist ein Motiv, aber noch kein Beweis.
(thats a motive but not evidence)
Schaarschmidt: Der Beweis ergibt sich aus den Ergebnissen, die der Leiter der Abteilung „Tote“ in der Vermißtennachweis-Zentrale Dresdens, Hanns Voigt, ermittelt hat und die von mehreren Lazarettärzten bestätigt worden sind. Dort ist von 80.000 bis 90.000 erfaßten und von geschätzen 150.000 Toten die Rede. Auch sowjetische Quellen sprechen von solchen oder sogar höheren Zahlen.
(the evidence is contained in the results of the investigation by the head of the section „Death“ from the Missing-Persons tracing Centre in Dresden, Hans Voigt, which is confirmed by several doctors from the military hospitals. In it there is mention of 80 000 to 90 000 confirmed dead and 150 000 in total. Soviet sources mention this also, as well as higher numbers)
Könnte Voigt nicht geirrt oder manipuliert haben, immerhin war er NSDAP-Mitglied
(is it possible Voigt was mistaken? He was after all a member of the NSDAP)
Schaarschmidt: Weidauer hat schließlich die Staatssicherheit gebeten, Material zusammenzustellen, um Voigt, der im Sommer 1945 entlassen und später in den Westen gegangen war, zu desavouieren. Offensichtlich hat die Stasi nichts gefunden, denn Weidauers späteres Buch „Inferno Dresden“ enthält keine stichhaltigen Beweise gegen Voigt.
(Weidauer finally asked the Stasi to gather material to discredit Voigt, who was released in 1945 and moved to the BDR. They obviously didn’t find anything, because Weidauer’s later book, ‘Inferno Dresden’ contains no sound evidence against Voigt)
I apologize for the lousy translation, its late in the day.
My point being that we will probably never know how many died, too many refugees in the city who were never registered. Also, some, if not many, burned completely in the firestorm
Regards
Wilf
Just when this commission was appointed, an interview appeared in ‘Die Junge Freiheit’, with the German Historian Wolfgang Schaarschmidt. Here are some excerpts, and I am only translating roughly (if someone wants the whole article translated, let me know and I’ll do my best):
“Schaarschmidt: Die Zahl 35.000 geht zurück auf die Ermittlungen des kommunistischen Nachkriegsbürgermeisters von Dresden, Walter Weidauer. Der hat wohl etwa 45.000 bis 55.000 Tote „unterschlagen“.
(the number of 35 000 goes back to the investigation of the communist mayor of Dresden, Walter Weidauer, following the war, who probably ‘misappropriated’ 45 000 to 55 000)
Warum sollte er, Dresden war das Werk der Westalliierten, eine hohe Opferzahl hätte gut in die Kalte-Kriegs-Propaganda der SED gepaßt?
(why would he, Dresden was the work of the western Allies, a high number of victims would have fitted in with the cold war propaganda of the SED [east Germanys communist party])
Schaarschmidt: Zum Beispiel, weil man, als Weidauer seine Zahlen 1946 erhoben hat und der Kalte Krieg noch gar nicht richtig ausgebrochen war, in Nürnberg noch fürchtete, allzu hohe Zahlen könnten bei den Prozessen dort auch die Frage nach alliierten Kriegsverbrechen aufwerfen.
(for instance, because when Weidauer came up with his number in 1946, the cold war had not really started and there was the concern that too high a number would have resulted in some questions re. Allied war crimes at Nürnberg)
Das ist ein Motiv, aber noch kein Beweis.
(thats a motive but not evidence)
Schaarschmidt: Der Beweis ergibt sich aus den Ergebnissen, die der Leiter der Abteilung „Tote“ in der Vermißtennachweis-Zentrale Dresdens, Hanns Voigt, ermittelt hat und die von mehreren Lazarettärzten bestätigt worden sind. Dort ist von 80.000 bis 90.000 erfaßten und von geschätzen 150.000 Toten die Rede. Auch sowjetische Quellen sprechen von solchen oder sogar höheren Zahlen.
(the evidence is contained in the results of the investigation by the head of the section „Death“ from the Missing-Persons tracing Centre in Dresden, Hans Voigt, which is confirmed by several doctors from the military hospitals. In it there is mention of 80 000 to 90 000 confirmed dead and 150 000 in total. Soviet sources mention this also, as well as higher numbers)
Könnte Voigt nicht geirrt oder manipuliert haben, immerhin war er NSDAP-Mitglied
(is it possible Voigt was mistaken? He was after all a member of the NSDAP)
Schaarschmidt: Weidauer hat schließlich die Staatssicherheit gebeten, Material zusammenzustellen, um Voigt, der im Sommer 1945 entlassen und später in den Westen gegangen war, zu desavouieren. Offensichtlich hat die Stasi nichts gefunden, denn Weidauers späteres Buch „Inferno Dresden“ enthält keine stichhaltigen Beweise gegen Voigt.
(Weidauer finally asked the Stasi to gather material to discredit Voigt, who was released in 1945 and moved to the BDR. They obviously didn’t find anything, because Weidauer’s later book, ‘Inferno Dresden’ contains no sound evidence against Voigt)
I apologize for the lousy translation, its late in the day.
My point being that we will probably never know how many died, too many refugees in the city who were never registered. Also, some, if not many, burned completely in the firestorm
Regards
Wilf
Wow. Those crocodile tears almost seem genuine. Once again, in your effort at attempting moral equivalency you ignore that I-word again (intent) and misstate the truth. We're used to that.michael mills wrote:What this shows is that former surmises about a very high death-toll, based on suppositions about large numbers of unregistered refugees in the city, have been replaced by a much lower figure based on solid documentary evidence.
Of course, it was not only neo-Nazis who postulated a very high death-toll. Much of the writing about Dresden, not only by neo-Nazis, reported very high figures.
A similar process to that whereby the assumed 4 million death-toll at Auschwitz was replaced by a more reasonable one million, and continues to be revised in the light of ongoing research.
One can only hope that the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the German Government will be greeted with the same open-mindedness as the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the Soviet Government and the Governments of the Western Allies.
In 1955 the East German Government published Max Seydewitz's book "The Unconquerable City" which quoted a figure of 35,000 dead at Dresden.Of course, it was not only neo-Nazis who postulated a very high death-toll. Much of the writing about Dresden, not only by neo-Nazis, reported very high figures.
There was no "assumed" 4 million figure for Auschwitz. That figure was put out by the Soviets in 1946 and was, and is, recognized as blatant Soviet propaganda by Western authorities and historians. Kommandant Hoess's IMT testimony gave a figure of about 2 million which he himself later revised downward to about 1.1, which is generally agreed upon.A similar process to that whereby the assumed 4 million death-toll at Auschwitz was replaced by a more reasonable one million, and continues to be revised in the light of ongoing research.
I am all in favor of getting the numbers right. However, there is no moral equivalency here. The deaths caused by the German government were the result of a deliberate plan to invade and conquer many countries, and a deliberate plan to exterminate a race of people. The deaths "caused" by the Allied governments were in response to those wars of aggression. The Allied actions at Dresden were acts of war. The German actions at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belsen, the Einsatzgruppen, etc were acts of systemic, industrialized mass murder.One can only hope that the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the German Government will be greeted with the same open-mindedness as the downward revision of the number of deaths caused by the Soviet Government and the Governments of the Western Allies
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walterkaschner
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Serious estimates and evidence of a much lower death toll for the Dresden air raid have been around for a long time. They just don't sell books, magazines or newspapers as well as gross exaggerations do!
As early as 1945 Max Seydewitz, the then Mayor of Dresden, in his Zerstörung and Wiederaufbau von Dresden (East Berlin, 1945) had proclaimed the document - known as TB 47 - putting the final death toll at over 200,000 as a clumsy forgery, and quoted the head gardener of the Heidefriedhof (apparently the largest cemetery in the area) as estimating 28,746 casualties had been buried there, including those incinerated in the Altmarkt - which even with adjusting for burials elsewhere and undiscovered victims was a far cry from the 120,000 to 250,000 (occasionally even 500,000) bruited about by Goebbels' propagandists, and later by the likes of David Irving and sensationalist articles in newspapers and magazines.
In 1953, Georg Feydt estimated the dead at 39,773 in his Ziviler Luftschutz, cited in Götz Bergander, Dresden in Luftkreig (Cologne 1977, 2d ed. 1985) at 253.
In 1965 Walter Weidauer, the then mayor of Dresden, in his Inferno Dresden: über Lügen und Legenden um die Aktion Donnerschlag (East Berlin, 1965, 2d ed. 1966) at 120, wrote that the individual cards in the death register, which was still extant in Dresden City Hall , showed the highest card number was 31,102 and that this corresponded with the numbers in the street books, which tabulated the streets and houses where dead were found.
In 1975 Götz Bergander published a copy of a situation report by the Berlin Chief of Police stating that the Befehshaber der Ordnungspolizei Dresden had reported 22,096 dead recovered as of March 31, 1945. And in 1977, Bergander discovered a copy of the original TB 47, which showed an actual death figure of 20,204 and an expected total of 25,000 - a copy relied upon by David Irving had been forged by simply adding zeros to the actual numbers. See Bergander, op cit supra at 261.
In 1993 new material was discovered in the Stadarchiv Dresden, Marschall und Bestattigungsamt, Nachtrag 1 and 5, listing in detail the bodies buried in the various Dresden cemeteries, which totalled 21,271. Friedrich Reichert, "Verbrannt bis zur Unkentlichkeit", in Dresden City Museum (ed.) Verbrannt bis zur Unkenntlickkeit: Die Zerstörung Dresdens 1945 (Altenburg, 1994) at 58. Reichert added some less than 2,000 bodies which had subsequently been discovered in the ruins since 1945, and rounded up to an estimate of 25,000 as the maximun fatal casualties from the raid. Ibid.
The above is compiled from Richard J Evans, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust and the David Irving Trial (Basic Books 2001) Chapter 5, at 149-85, and from Fredrick Taylor, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 (Harper Collins 2004) Appendix B, "Counting the Dead" at 443-8.
Reasonable estimates and documentary evidence of a much lower death toll have been around for over 30 years, and the figure of c. 25,000 was pinned down at least a dozen years ago. The incredibly higher estimates have been kept alive IMHO only through the efforts of those who have their own particular axe to grind.
Regards, Kaschner
As early as 1945 Max Seydewitz, the then Mayor of Dresden, in his Zerstörung and Wiederaufbau von Dresden (East Berlin, 1945) had proclaimed the document - known as TB 47 - putting the final death toll at over 200,000 as a clumsy forgery, and quoted the head gardener of the Heidefriedhof (apparently the largest cemetery in the area) as estimating 28,746 casualties had been buried there, including those incinerated in the Altmarkt - which even with adjusting for burials elsewhere and undiscovered victims was a far cry from the 120,000 to 250,000 (occasionally even 500,000) bruited about by Goebbels' propagandists, and later by the likes of David Irving and sensationalist articles in newspapers and magazines.
In 1953, Georg Feydt estimated the dead at 39,773 in his Ziviler Luftschutz, cited in Götz Bergander, Dresden in Luftkreig (Cologne 1977, 2d ed. 1985) at 253.
In 1965 Walter Weidauer, the then mayor of Dresden, in his Inferno Dresden: über Lügen und Legenden um die Aktion Donnerschlag (East Berlin, 1965, 2d ed. 1966) at 120, wrote that the individual cards in the death register, which was still extant in Dresden City Hall , showed the highest card number was 31,102 and that this corresponded with the numbers in the street books, which tabulated the streets and houses where dead were found.
In 1975 Götz Bergander published a copy of a situation report by the Berlin Chief of Police stating that the Befehshaber der Ordnungspolizei Dresden had reported 22,096 dead recovered as of March 31, 1945. And in 1977, Bergander discovered a copy of the original TB 47, which showed an actual death figure of 20,204 and an expected total of 25,000 - a copy relied upon by David Irving had been forged by simply adding zeros to the actual numbers. See Bergander, op cit supra at 261.
In 1993 new material was discovered in the Stadarchiv Dresden, Marschall und Bestattigungsamt, Nachtrag 1 and 5, listing in detail the bodies buried in the various Dresden cemeteries, which totalled 21,271. Friedrich Reichert, "Verbrannt bis zur Unkentlichkeit", in Dresden City Museum (ed.) Verbrannt bis zur Unkenntlickkeit: Die Zerstörung Dresdens 1945 (Altenburg, 1994) at 58. Reichert added some less than 2,000 bodies which had subsequently been discovered in the ruins since 1945, and rounded up to an estimate of 25,000 as the maximun fatal casualties from the raid. Ibid.
The above is compiled from Richard J Evans, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust and the David Irving Trial (Basic Books 2001) Chapter 5, at 149-85, and from Fredrick Taylor, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 (Harper Collins 2004) Appendix B, "Counting the Dead" at 443-8.
Reasonable estimates and documentary evidence of a much lower death toll have been around for over 30 years, and the figure of c. 25,000 was pinned down at least a dozen years ago. The incredibly higher estimates have been kept alive IMHO only through the efforts of those who have their own particular axe to grind.
Regards, Kaschner
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walterkaschner
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Thanks for he info Neugirig! It seems that some guosts never cease to walk, no matter how firmly they've been put to rest.
Ivé just done a quick google search on Wolfgang Schaarschmidt. Although a self-professed historian he seems to have written only one book: Dresden 1945: Daten - Fakten - Opfer (Herbig-Verlag, München 2005) which appeared last month on the 60th anniversary of the Dresden air raid. He supposedly studied medicine in university (but does not use the professional title "Dr." seemingly beloved of most Germans) and reportedly spent 4 years in the East Berlin political prison Bautzen II, for unspecified reasons.
For anyone who might be interested, below is a link to a rather gentle but highly critical review of Schaarschmidt's book which appeared in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung last February. According to the reviewer, Schaarschmidt disdains any reliance on contemporary or official documentary records of the death toll, such as dug up by Götz Bergander and Friedrich Reichert, and instead bases his own calculations on 2d, 3rd, and 4th hand reports of estimates by persons of highly questionable reliability, together with a raft of suspicions and assumptions. He even surpasses David Irving, by placing his own estimate at up to 200,000 deaths.
http://www.buecher.de/verteiler.asp?wea ... 97514.html
Regards, Kaschner
Ivé just done a quick google search on Wolfgang Schaarschmidt. Although a self-professed historian he seems to have written only one book: Dresden 1945: Daten - Fakten - Opfer (Herbig-Verlag, München 2005) which appeared last month on the 60th anniversary of the Dresden air raid. He supposedly studied medicine in university (but does not use the professional title "Dr." seemingly beloved of most Germans) and reportedly spent 4 years in the East Berlin political prison Bautzen II, for unspecified reasons.
For anyone who might be interested, below is a link to a rather gentle but highly critical review of Schaarschmidt's book which appeared in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung last February. According to the reviewer, Schaarschmidt disdains any reliance on contemporary or official documentary records of the death toll, such as dug up by Götz Bergander and Friedrich Reichert, and instead bases his own calculations on 2d, 3rd, and 4th hand reports of estimates by persons of highly questionable reliability, together with a raft of suspicions and assumptions. He even surpasses David Irving, by placing his own estimate at up to 200,000 deaths.
http://www.buecher.de/verteiler.asp?wea ... 97514.html
Regards, Kaschner
Actually, it was put out by the Western Allies, after having tortured Hoess into signing a statement to that effect. Hoess' lower figure were given in Communist captivity. It is true, though, that the Communists took longer to admit that the figures were grossly exaggerated.There was no "assumed" 4 million figure for Auschwitz. That figure was put out by the Soviets in 1946
walterkaschner:
„Thanks for he info Neugirig!”
You are welcome, Sir.
I just happened to have picked up the interview with Herr Schaarschmidt and have no idea whether he is right or wrong.
What I regret, and what apparently happened, is the fact that the Roßberg Commission did not consult him, i.e., discuss his findings with him, as they had promised according to the interview, before they came to a conclusion,
You see Sir, I am of the opinion, and I seem to be a minority, that when discussing those events, all sides should be heard. If they are not, as seems to be the case here, the findings will always be considered to be one-sided, as well they should be. This then gives ammunition to those who have their own agenda.
As stated before, I don’t think we will ever know how many died in Dresden, too many unknowns, the number of refugees, how many were pulverized, etc..
And for those who have been hanging around Forums like I do, that is, have no live, you might remember that I wrote a while back that I visited Dresden days before the bombings and have some first hand knowledge about the number of refugees. Does this make me an expert on this or any other subject? Far from it.
Regards
Wilf
„Thanks for he info Neugirig!”
You are welcome, Sir.
I just happened to have picked up the interview with Herr Schaarschmidt and have no idea whether he is right or wrong.
What I regret, and what apparently happened, is the fact that the Roßberg Commission did not consult him, i.e., discuss his findings with him, as they had promised according to the interview, before they came to a conclusion,
You see Sir, I am of the opinion, and I seem to be a minority, that when discussing those events, all sides should be heard. If they are not, as seems to be the case here, the findings will always be considered to be one-sided, as well they should be. This then gives ammunition to those who have their own agenda.
As stated before, I don’t think we will ever know how many died in Dresden, too many unknowns, the number of refugees, how many were pulverized, etc..
And for those who have been hanging around Forums like I do, that is, have no live, you might remember that I wrote a while back that I visited Dresden days before the bombings and have some first hand knowledge about the number of refugees. Does this make me an expert on this or any other subject? Far from it.
Regards
Wilf
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David Thompson
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Dan -- You said:
This is off-topic, but when Hoess testified at the IMT proceedings (vol. 11, pp. 414-415), he gave a figure of 2.5 million executed, confirming his previous affidavit to that effect. Note that he does not give a definite total figure for murdered Jews at Auschwitz either:There was no "assumed" 4 million figure for Auschwitz. That figure was put out by the Soviets in 1946
Actually, it was put out by the Western Allies, after having tortured Hoess into signing a statement to that effect. Hoess' lower figure were given in Communist captivity. It is true, though, that the Communists took longer to admit that the figures were grossly exaggerated.
COL. AMEN: I ask that the witness be shown Document 3868-PS, which will become Exhibit USA-819.
[The document was submitted to the witness.]
COL. AMEN: You signed that affidavit voluntarily, Witness?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And the affidavit is true in all respects?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: This, if the Tribunal please, we have in four languages. [Turning to the witness.] Some of the matters covered in this affidavit you have already told us about in part, so I will omit some parts of the affidavit. If you will follow along with me as I read, please. Do you have a copy of the affidavit before you?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: I will omit the first paragraph and start with Paragraph 2:
"I have been constantly associated with the administration of concentration camps since 1934, serving at Dachau until 1938; then as Adjutant in Sachsenhausen from 1938 to 1 May
414 15 April 46
1940, when I was appointed Commandant of Auschwitz. I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70 or 80 percent of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries; included among the executed and burned were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of prisoner-of-war cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great Numbers of citizens, mostly Jewish, from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944." That is all true, Witness?
HOESS: Yes, it is.
Last edited by David Thompson on 26 Mar 2005, 04:02, edited 2 times in total.
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walterkaschner
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Neugierig wrote:
Or it may be that politics entered into it. Schaarschmidt was prominently on the podium of the ultra right wing public assembly held in Dresden to commemorate the Anglo American "Terror Attack" , which was given extensive coverage by Deutsche Stimme, the mouthpiece of the Nationalen Partei Deutschland, an extreme rightist and nationalistic political party, which seems to go about as far as it legally can down the NSDAP path. See:
http://www.dsz-verlag.de/Artikel_05/NZ09_2.html
and for the program of the NPD see:
http://www.npd.de/npd_startseiten/programme.html
Again, I may be grossly unfair, but on the basis of the little I know I can't be too surprised that Bürgomeister Rossberg had no patience to hear Herr (I notice he now calls himself Dr.) Schaarschmidt's opinions.
Regards, Kaschner
I could not agree more that no side should be silenced, and that everyone should be entitled to air and publish their views. But that being said, does it mean that everyone - particularly governmental commissions and agencies - should be obliged to listen to every crackpot that comes around with nothing more than a rehash of incredible suspicions, assumptions and disproven theories? I may be totally unfair to Herr Schaarschmidt as I haven't read his book and don't intend to, but the FAZ book review I referred to seemed on its face to be a fairly objective and dispassionate summary of his views, and from that he appears to have nothing whatsoever substantive to add to the issue. At my age I feel that I have insufficient time remaining to suffer fools gladly or lend my ear to arrant nonsense and I would strongly suspect that the Rossberg Commission may have felt the same way.What I regret, and what apparently happened, is the fact that the Roßberg Commission did not consult him, i.e., discuss his findings with him, as they had promised according to the interview, before they came to a conclusion,
You see Sir, I am of the opinion, and I seem to be a minority, that when discussing those events, all sides should be heard. If they are not, as seems to be the case here, the findings will always be considered to be one-sided, as well they should be. This then gives ammunition to those who have their own agenda.
Or it may be that politics entered into it. Schaarschmidt was prominently on the podium of the ultra right wing public assembly held in Dresden to commemorate the Anglo American "Terror Attack" , which was given extensive coverage by Deutsche Stimme, the mouthpiece of the Nationalen Partei Deutschland, an extreme rightist and nationalistic political party, which seems to go about as far as it legally can down the NSDAP path. See:
http://www.dsz-verlag.de/Artikel_05/NZ09_2.html
and for the program of the NPD see:
http://www.npd.de/npd_startseiten/programme.html
Again, I may be grossly unfair, but on the basis of the little I know I can't be too surprised that Bürgomeister Rossberg had no patience to hear Herr (I notice he now calls himself Dr.) Schaarschmidt's opinions.
Regards, Kaschner
The German newspaper “Die Welt” of 2/12/1995, p.8 announced:
“according to a report of the former Generalstabsoffiziers of the defense district Dresden, Oberstleutnant of the Bundeswehr a.D. Matthes, who was a former administrative director of the city of Dresden, 35,000 dead were completely identified, 50,000 partially and 168,00 dead not at all.”
And looking at pictures of the destruction of Dresden after the air attack and comparing them with pictures of Hiroshima (est. death toll 140,000) and Tokio (100,000) in Japan, it appears that the destructions were similar and that the high death toll appears to be reasonable.
Anyway I am happy for the people who thought to have lost their loved ones, relatives, friends and neighbors in this Holocaust, and find out now 60 years later that the death toll was only 25,000 according to some historians and that their loved ones did not die then.
“according to a report of the former Generalstabsoffiziers of the defense district Dresden, Oberstleutnant of the Bundeswehr a.D. Matthes, who was a former administrative director of the city of Dresden, 35,000 dead were completely identified, 50,000 partially and 168,00 dead not at all.”
And looking at pictures of the destruction of Dresden after the air attack and comparing them with pictures of Hiroshima (est. death toll 140,000) and Tokio (100,000) in Japan, it appears that the destructions were similar and that the high death toll appears to be reasonable.
Anyway I am happy for the people who thought to have lost their loved ones, relatives, friends and neighbors in this Holocaust, and find out now 60 years later that the death toll was only 25,000 according to some historians and that their loved ones did not die then.
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David Thompson
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