FW-190D/Ta-152

[Slater]

From what I've read, the FW-190D (and the follow-on Ta-152 series) were probably the best single engine propeller-driven fighters make it into Luftwaffe service. In terms of pure performance, how would they compare with the Chance Vought F4U Corsair, which they never (I believe) met in combat?

[admfisher]

The TA 152 was supposed to have out run P-51's I read somewhere.
The plane was the final of the FW 190 series and had a very heavy gun set up. But when it comes to comparing the planes I would say it's the pilots who would make the difference.

Sorry not to be of more help.

[gabriel pagliarani]

Fw 190 D-9 "long nose" entered in service only in Nov 44. Basically it was a Fw 190 "short nose" adapted to a V-12 liquid cooled engine by using an annular toroidal cooling unit coaxial to the shaft of the propeller. Because the heat exchange units are more efficient by mean of Cx (linear penetration drag coefficient) respect with previous larger air cooled stellar BMW engine, the side shape of "long nose" Fw was as slim as possible: there were no cooling units under the wings or fuselage. By this feature "long nose" was able to steer around z axis (with only rudder) in the faster "flat derapage" ever seen before. An experienced pilot was able to hold in sight the tail of any enemy, with such a fast aerobatic maneuvre. The limit of "long nose" was in wingspan (the same of the fighter-bomber "short nose" previous versions) At top ceiling (allied bombers coming at 25000-30000 ft) the short wings permitted lower acrobatic performances than a 18000 ft medium height. But "long nose" was extremely effective "in the middle" ceiling. Ta 152 H was a top ceiling interceptor having more wingspan, but it was a new plane totally different from "long noses". I think (but I am not sure) that Ta 152 had a pressurized cockpit. Only the shape was similar. The french ace Pierre Clostermann did this report after a comparation for RAF in 1946.

[Erich]

Slater :

Are you looking for some useful reference books on both a/c ?

The Fw 190Dora was only a stop gap being used as a high altitude plane against Allied fighters. It did not come off as was planned as all US and even RAF fighters could outperform the a/c in most respects. The Tank really did come into service much too late to change any outcome but was the start of something very unique. True, a heavier weapons platform with 1 3cm and two 2cm guns, excellent firepower. Longer pointed wings and better visibility for the pilot as he was positioned further back along the fuselage. The a/c could top out above 40,000 feet elevation so it could match any existing high altitude Allied fighter in existance. Problem with the Tank is that it never flew operationally at these heights. combat was performed in III. and Stab./JG 301 at medium altitudes against P-47's, Tempest and several Soviet variants. Kurt Tank on a test flight did fly away from several P-51's, and I am sure it came as quite a shock to the US pilots as this "thing" put it in gear and vanished before their eyes.
For a beautiful rendition of the Stab flight of JG 301 Tanks please visit :

http://www.eagle-editions.com

search for the Jerry Crandall's JG 301 Stabsschwarm in the paintings section. Jerry will hopefully have his book on JG 301 completed sometime next year and will cover the Ta 152 at length, much more than any previous author with profiles, victories and losses of JG 301. A must have book !

E

[gabriel pagliarani]

I'll buy Erich, but the best opinion comes from pilots. Otherwise it respects 100% your report, as default. Pierre Clostermann fighted against Fw 190D witha a RAF Tempest V till the end of the war. He said also that the feet-up position of the pilot granted an higher resistance to black-outs in sighting ("red vision")at extreme g down forces after a dive: in 1945 there was not in use any anti-g battle dress and this Fw peculiarity saved many lives during dogfights. Only a jet could be better than a long-nose in 1945.

[Erich]

My information comes from the German pilots themselves........ Don't buy Pierre's comments as being always truthful my friend !

E

[gabriel pagliarani]

mmmhh..you don't like allied pilots a lot...give'em a chance, poor evils
G

[Erich]

No that is not true Gabriel ! I have some very dear close friends that severed in several US fighter groups and I am a member of threee of the associations. I consider some aspects of Pierres first book pure rubbish and several misconceptions. Granted he was an excellent pilot no doubt, but his recollections are a bit messed up. We can converse on this in private if you wish. One thing that stands out is his report of several downings by a pilot of JG 301 on a certain date. In reality the JG 301 pilot only scored one. I have quite a bit of material(s) on JG 301 as I have conversed with Jerry Crandall about the above painting I mentioned back in 1992 and also had a cousin on my mothers side whom served in 5./JG 301 and was killed in action over Misburg on 26 November 1944 flying an Fw 190A-9.

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[gabriel pagliarani]

It was only a soft joke, Erich! Too much serious about...you know my story and I consider my own existence a miracle because my complete Christian name is Gabriele Enrico Ruggero. They were the best fiends of dad killed in action during that damned Summer of 1944, therefore my actual existence is due only to a particular Grace of God, a gift of Fate to dad. This is the reason because I respect all pilots of any possible nation: perhaps I know theyr own habits and defects, and sincerely I appreciate their own feelings more than any technical aspect. They were only men risking the life many times more than any other soldier. But they were only men and like fishermen they have an insane tendency to grow their memories and now they are all dead or suffering of Alzheimer disease: these were the real problems I enconterd in saving their memos. Oxygen plus benzhydrine and a lot of heartbreaking incredible scares shortened their accelerated lives: a pilot in WW II was like a candle burning both sides. I know perfectly what are you telling about, Erich.

[Erich]

Good points Gabriel ! Ich verstehen !

keep your relatives memories alive ......please !

E

[gabriel pagliarani]

Sir Erich,
I have a question for you, because we have touched the argument drugs. It had to be studied in a new topic, but here we are..In Italy some years before WW2 Prof. Dal Fabbro, leader of Istituto di Medicina Aeronautica of Regia Aeronautica trimmed a medical protocol to enhance as much as possible the pilots' performances by mean of drugs. It began during the famous attempts to reach the max. altitude record for 4 stroke engines at the end of which a oxygen powered biplane touched the incredible top ceiling of 17000 meters. The use of a german primitive amfetamine (benzedrine or benzhydrine: is not clear) gave the pilot the possibility to achieve the record. This product was able to enhance level of attention improving in the while times of reaction withstanding negative and positive accelerations. Also the feeling of cold was lowered (at 17000 mt he was in the ozone layer at -60°C). After Spain War this medical protocol was applied to all fighter pilots: there were only a little evidencies of incoming damages to the brain but the Regia Aeronautica counted that the average survival rate of his own pilots could not exceed 10 days before killing! This count had to be made before WW2! After the war Americans picked up all the protocol then used it to prepare the space missions and I am asking to myself if there are evidences of it or equivalent in Luftwaffe and if they never used it. During previous researchs I discovered the never declared existence of a USAAF's protocol about sympamine: this product was studied for long range bomber application.
Never heard something about?

[Erich]

Gabriel :

I think there was talk of this in Luftwaffe circles on a purely experimental basis with special test pilots. Although I have never heard of any high altitude pilot ever taking or receiving a similiar type of drug for performance useage. The wide spread useage of pressureized cabins was a bit safer in the long run where the pilots would not suffer short/long term effects as they would with drug use......

E

[Topspeed]

Original question would FW 190 D battle in even terms with a Corsair.

FW being smaller would sustain less battle damage..and being smaller it would have been a smaller target.

It all depends on luck and pilot experience. That could have been a tough fight had they ever met.

Corsair: http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/pos ... sters.html

FW 190 D:
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2 ... fw190d.htm

FW 190 D had an annular radiator and that is considered to be revolutional as such.

TA 152 H-1 had a top speed of 820 km/h at 13.2 km altitude..Corsair could not have flown there ( at least do dogfighting )..so there it would have been easy prey for a Ta 152 H1, but at lower altitudes no particular edge over the Corsair.

Gabriele Enrico Ruggero,

Any comment on the topic ?


best regards,

Juke T / Oulu

[Topspeed]

One thing that stands out is his report of several downings by a pilot of JG 301 on a certain date. In reality the JG 301 pilot only scored one. I have quite a bit of material(s) on JG 301 as I have conversed with Jerry Crandall about the above painting I mentioned back in 1992 and also had a cousin on my mothers side whom served in 5./JG 301 and was killed in action over Misburg on 26 November 1944 flying an Fw 190A-9.

E

Are you saying FW 190 D-9 while in JG301 had a poor perfomance ?
FW 190 A was considered very poor on intercepting bombers and Me 109 then put to higher priority in the duty. Exact data on D-9 in the job ?

JT

[Erich]

no I did not say that at all and not sure why you said this. Clostermann is full of crap sorry to say concerning this air battle. The D-9 was a good craft, the Tank was better.

The A-8 was superior as a bomber destroyer especially the A-8/R2 and R8 variants, the Bf 109 was cast as a high escort over the 190A-8.

The D-9 was to be the answer to the P-51 with the hope that the Ta 152 would follow in numbers right behind but it did not. The D-9 pilots in II./JG 301 were inexperienced and overwhelmed by the huge Allied P-51 forces.

E ~