Where was Mussolini hoping to flee to when caught?
Where was Mussolini hoping to flee to when caught?
I believe Mussolini was trying to flee to Switzerland when the partisans captured and killed him. what was he proposing to do if he reached Switzerland. Did he have a plane ready to fly to Spain? Wouldn't the Swiss have been under tremendous pressure to hand him over to the Allies?
When Mussolini was caught he was with a german column trying to get back to Germany by Brenner Pass .
At that point Mussolini had no clear ideas where to go and what to do , probably he was no master of his fate anymore and just waited for the end to come .
It has never been established if he really tried to get to Switzerland but early in the trip with the fascist column from Como he tried to leave all other cars behind and going alone on his way , but is not clear if he wished to go Switzerland . In the end he never got near the Swiss border and just went along with the other members of the fascist goverment until they joined a german strong force evacuating from italy but near Dongo on the Como lake they were ambushed by partisans and the germans negotiated their passage abandoning the italians to their fate and taking with tehm only Mussolini dressed in a german overcat and helmet , but at a partisan check the duce was identified and removed from the truck , without the germans lifting a finger and probably happy to get rid of him .
At that point Mussolini had no clear ideas where to go and what to do , probably he was no master of his fate anymore and just waited for the end to come .
It has never been established if he really tried to get to Switzerland but early in the trip with the fascist column from Como he tried to leave all other cars behind and going alone on his way , but is not clear if he wished to go Switzerland . In the end he never got near the Swiss border and just went along with the other members of the fascist goverment until they joined a german strong force evacuating from italy but near Dongo on the Como lake they were ambushed by partisans and the germans negotiated their passage abandoning the italians to their fate and taking with tehm only Mussolini dressed in a german overcat and helmet , but at a partisan check the duce was identified and removed from the truck , without the germans lifting a finger and probably happy to get rid of him .
Mussolini
I seem to think,from what I have read about him, that he was a highly disillusioned man and had been, for many months. He had lost all hope,but,being an ardent Italian nationalist, he preffered to face whatever was coming to him - to be in Italy - not Switzerland or Germany. It did - and he at least had the satisfaction of having died in his own country.Killed by his own countrymen - which rings better in history - than being a recluse in excile - dragged to some kangaroo-court. Mussolini had a great grasp of history and his exit from it was not without a certain dignity.
To be honest I believe that Mussolini end was not very dignified , he should have stayed with the loyal fascist forces in Milano or Como and wait for the American or British forces and surrender to them .
The initial plan , after the failed talks with CNL in the Milano bishop residence , was for all fascist forces in Milano to form an hedgehog in the city centre and at the Milano fascist Federation Building in PIazza San Sepolcro and resist the partisans , it could have been done as partisans had no heavy weapons and in the early days of insurrection were a ragtag force with a lot of last minute followers .
But upon return to the prefecture in Corso Monforte , Mussolini decided to go on his way without a clear plan of action abandoning the Milano Fascists that tried to follow him to Como as best as they could .
It would have been a better choice to stay in Milano and eventually die in the place were Fascism was born after WWI , but Mussolini chose a different path and returned to Milano only after death for the horrible show mounted in Piazza Loreto by the partisans .
The initial plan , after the failed talks with CNL in the Milano bishop residence , was for all fascist forces in Milano to form an hedgehog in the city centre and at the Milano fascist Federation Building in PIazza San Sepolcro and resist the partisans , it could have been done as partisans had no heavy weapons and in the early days of insurrection were a ragtag force with a lot of last minute followers .
But upon return to the prefecture in Corso Monforte , Mussolini decided to go on his way without a clear plan of action abandoning the Milano Fascists that tried to follow him to Como as best as they could .
It would have been a better choice to stay in Milano and eventually die in the place were Fascism was born after WWI , but Mussolini chose a different path and returned to Milano only after death for the horrible show mounted in Piazza Loreto by the partisans .
Mussolini's end
GLADIVM - I wholeheartedly agree with most of what you wrote - but feel that Mussolini's decision,not, to hedgehog in Milano or Como - may have been rooted in his appreciation of the other members of the hedgehog. I - think he no longer trusted them 'to the last bullet'.And wasn't he such a man that ,that, was his only option. To surrender.....no, I don't think so. He knew well, the rules of the 'kangaroo courts' that followed. AS for his exit, if Rome may yet stand for another thousand years - I believe that Mussolini's rule - will still be remembered - when that of some hundreds of others - have long been forgotten.
Mussolini
I think Mussolini was less brave than Hitler, and to a certain extent a coward, who stayed in Berlin until the end. Well, if he had not been killed by Italian partisans, then maybe a cynical Stalin might persuade the Western Allies than he was hiding in Spain or Switzerland just like Hitler
What about the "Ridotto valtellinese"?
All RSI troops search ,if possible, to go in Valtellina, and Mussolini was "captured" in the way for this place, where the RSI fighters wait Mussolini or are in way for go in Valtellina for join with him.
The tremendous error was that Mussolini stay in Milano during the last minute and much of the Milano troops start for Valtellina meeting before Mussolini.
Is my poor opinion that if he suspect what will the comportament of the german column commander, that sell the Duce for a free pass for Passo Tonale,sure Mussolini no trip with he family.
If Mussolini trip with the Italian fighters sure before he capture no 1 man stay in life... if we can suppose that he will captured for sure, CAUSE A GERMAN COLUMN OF 300 SOLDIERS WITH AUTOBLINDO WAS STOPPED FROM 1 TREE INTO THE STREET AND THE SO CALLED "AMBUSH" WAS AGAINST 12 (if i remeber well..or was 14?) PARTISANS, if we can say partisans, cause the great part was composed from the "partisans of the last hour", in concrete 7 or 8 privat citizens of Dongo under the command of 4 or 5 partisans.
The negotiate of the german commander with the partisan "force" in the town of Dongo was a very sad and dirty chapter of the history of the war time.
Also the figure of the priest of Dongo! ..and the fact that he ask excuse much years after i think no change much the situation.
Luca
All RSI troops search ,if possible, to go in Valtellina, and Mussolini was "captured" in the way for this place, where the RSI fighters wait Mussolini or are in way for go in Valtellina for join with him.
The tremendous error was that Mussolini stay in Milano during the last minute and much of the Milano troops start for Valtellina meeting before Mussolini.
Is my poor opinion that if he suspect what will the comportament of the german column commander, that sell the Duce for a free pass for Passo Tonale,sure Mussolini no trip with he family.
If Mussolini trip with the Italian fighters sure before he capture no 1 man stay in life... if we can suppose that he will captured for sure, CAUSE A GERMAN COLUMN OF 300 SOLDIERS WITH AUTOBLINDO WAS STOPPED FROM 1 TREE INTO THE STREET AND THE SO CALLED "AMBUSH" WAS AGAINST 12 (if i remeber well..or was 14?) PARTISANS, if we can say partisans, cause the great part was composed from the "partisans of the last hour", in concrete 7 or 8 privat citizens of Dongo under the command of 4 or 5 partisans.
The negotiate of the german commander with the partisan "force" in the town of Dongo was a very sad and dirty chapter of the history of the war time.
Also the figure of the priest of Dongo! ..and the fact that he ask excuse much years after i think no change much the situation.
Luca
Sorry,
i no write that the Ridotto Valtellinese was a project for the last desperate resistence.The idea was of "vendere care la pelle" that maybe is possible traslate in "sell for high price the skin" that mean = i know that i will dead but the much more number of enemyes will go with me.
Phrases as "fino in fondo" or "fino alla fine" was very common in the RSI troops during the lasts days...differents personals decisions born after the notice that the Duce was killed.
i no write that the Ridotto Valtellinese was a project for the last desperate resistence.The idea was of "vendere care la pelle" that maybe is possible traslate in "sell for high price the skin" that mean = i know that i will dead but the much more number of enemyes will go with me.
Phrases as "fino in fondo" or "fino alla fine" was very common in the RSI troops during the lasts days...differents personals decisions born after the notice that the Duce was killed.
The RIDOTTO VALTELLINESE , never existed it was just an idea of Vincenzo Costa , the fascist Party Chief in Milano and mussolini was never interested in it , just in the last few days in Milano Mussolini asked Costa to explain the idea , better say the dream , but he did not take it seriously and was not on the way to Valtellina when stopped in Dongo .
In fact nothing was done to prepare Valtellina to withstand a siege and no troops were sent there . For better infos about the Ridotto , can read the book " L'ultimo Federale " of Vincenzo Costa which well explains the desperation and confusion of the RSI last days .
Costa is one of the few survivors who was with Mussolini before the end and its account is gripping and honest .
I think that after being informed of the German surrender in Italy Mussolini lost all interest in life and did not trust even his most faithful followers anymore , he was just waiting for the end and never considered a last stand with all the Fascists around him , it is a pity as at least he would have gone down in a more dignified way and might have saved the lives of many Fascists who might have had a chance to surrender to the americans and not to the partisans .
In fact the RSI troops who could surrender to regular troops always saved their lives and instead those who surrendered to the partisans were mostly slain .
In fact nothing was done to prepare Valtellina to withstand a siege and no troops were sent there . For better infos about the Ridotto , can read the book " L'ultimo Federale " of Vincenzo Costa which well explains the desperation and confusion of the RSI last days .
Costa is one of the few survivors who was with Mussolini before the end and its account is gripping and honest .
I think that after being informed of the German surrender in Italy Mussolini lost all interest in life and did not trust even his most faithful followers anymore , he was just waiting for the end and never considered a last stand with all the Fascists around him , it is a pity as at least he would have gone down in a more dignified way and might have saved the lives of many Fascists who might have had a chance to surrender to the americans and not to the partisans .
In fact the RSI troops who could surrender to regular troops always saved their lives and instead those who surrendered to the partisans were mostly slain .
Dear Gladivm,
i will search some inopinable sources that say informations concern the well know Ridotto fact and the attempt of all RSI troops of confluence in Valtellina after the first proyect of confluence in Piemonte.In any case is correct that only a very little numer of fighters arrive in Valtellina or to no much Km, as in my area,that is 10 km to Valtellina or 20 to Tonale pass, when much Germans and Italian columns search to take the way of the Brennero pass,after the death of the Duce.
Concern what You think, thank You very much for show your interessant opinion.
Concern my opinion of Your opinion,is only an opinion, so i prefere no show here.
Luca
i will search some inopinable sources that say informations concern the well know Ridotto fact and the attempt of all RSI troops of confluence in Valtellina after the first proyect of confluence in Piemonte.In any case is correct that only a very little numer of fighters arrive in Valtellina or to no much Km, as in my area,that is 10 km to Valtellina or 20 to Tonale pass, when much Germans and Italian columns search to take the way of the Brennero pass,after the death of the Duce.
Concern what You think, thank You very much for show your interessant opinion.
Concern my opinion of Your opinion,is only an opinion, so i prefere no show here.
Luca
Dear Luca ,
There is also a book by "Pisano' " I am sure you know him , but I do not recall the title , which describes how a column of Fascists , GNR / Brigate Nere , when informed of Mussolini presence in the lake area tried to reach him and bring inside Valtellina , but they were only a few hundred men with trucks and only light weapons .
But they were stopped by the partisans in an ambush near a sanctuary and could not get trough , they had to withdraw and few days later surrendered to partisans . despite promises to be spared , all officers were promptly massacred and NCO & ranks were marched btween hostiles crowds in prisony and sufferings .
In valtellina there were only some local forces and the assembly of Fascists would have been possible only if Mussolini had joined and conducted a large force from Milano & Como .
What really passed in the Duce mind during those hours is impossible to understand , everithing was falling around him and must have been a very desperate man .
There is also a book by "Pisano' " I am sure you know him , but I do not recall the title , which describes how a column of Fascists , GNR / Brigate Nere , when informed of Mussolini presence in the lake area tried to reach him and bring inside Valtellina , but they were only a few hundred men with trucks and only light weapons .
But they were stopped by the partisans in an ambush near a sanctuary and could not get trough , they had to withdraw and few days later surrendered to partisans . despite promises to be spared , all officers were promptly massacred and NCO & ranks were marched btween hostiles crowds in prisony and sufferings .
In valtellina there were only some local forces and the assembly of Fascists would have been possible only if Mussolini had joined and conducted a large force from Milano & Como .
What really passed in the Duce mind during those hours is impossible to understand , everithing was falling around him and must have been a very desperate man .
Dear Gladivm,
no, i no have read 1 of the Pisanò books.
In any case i agree in total with the first part of the Your last message.
Maybe my famous english in my olds messages no permit me of explane right what i want say.
If i write that in Valtellina was a great concentration of troops ,please, excuse me, i ve write uncorrect.
Also if you have undestend this ,reading my olds email,sorry again,and no worry,much time i also no understend tomorrow what i write in english today.....
Your information concern Pisanò experience coincide with i want explane in my old emails.
The Ridotto Valtellinese was a idea starting in the very last time of the facts and cause the precipitation of the events ,in concrete,no born.
Infact the troops that arrive in concrete in Valtellina was very very little. Only the men that for dislocation reasons have the possibility for arrive in this "last place", and also for concrete time reasons.
Cause the obvious comunication and tactical and logistic problems of the RSI troops in these last days, much fighters no know the existence of the proyect, but the great part yes.
Very different situations born in this time, in concrete 1 situation every 1 group of fighters.
Groups in relativity short distance to meetingpoint maybe don't know the proyect and goups in long distance maybe yes.
Some Groups decide that was impossible chance search to go, cause the impossible way of the trip.
Some Groups start from short distance and never arrive.
Some others also never arrive but win much more % distance respect others group in better dislocation.
Some was stopped.
Much others with hard work win some Km.
Others never start.
Much of these differens siuations depend of the steight consistence of the differens Groups. (see the "Mussolini" column,never stopped for much km crossing several bloked ways, and only stopped for a strange casuality)
All these different situations freeze when arrive the notice of the death of the Duce.
Much columns of fighters was in free situation and with relativity possiblity for arrive to meeting point at the moment of the notice.
Much others no.
In any case what i want say in my olds messages is that the idea of last meeting of all troops exist,and he start for born,but cause the facts,never realizated.
In concrete the last order was "Cerchiamo ,se possibile ,di raggrupparci in Valtellina il più presto possiblile"..or so.
with friendly
Luca
PS = concern the psicologic (please,put same "y" in casual place,im tired cause i vent drink my first coffee) situation of the Duce is obvious that we can only think some opinables opinions,but now i remember that in some place of my very ordinate home i ve a copy of a paper write from Benito Mussolini during the last days of life.Maybe can help thinkers and opinioners to make some personal comment. If i ve the lucky of find the copy in this great revolution home i will show here,and i hope that You will traslate in Your great english for Ours. Thank you.
[/quote]
no, i no have read 1 of the Pisanò books.
In any case i agree in total with the first part of the Your last message.
Maybe my famous english in my olds messages no permit me of explane right what i want say.
If i write that in Valtellina was a great concentration of troops ,please, excuse me, i ve write uncorrect.
Also if you have undestend this ,reading my olds email,sorry again,and no worry,much time i also no understend tomorrow what i write in english today.....
Your information concern Pisanò experience coincide with i want explane in my old emails.
The Ridotto Valtellinese was a idea starting in the very last time of the facts and cause the precipitation of the events ,in concrete,no born.
Infact the troops that arrive in concrete in Valtellina was very very little. Only the men that for dislocation reasons have the possibility for arrive in this "last place", and also for concrete time reasons.
Cause the obvious comunication and tactical and logistic problems of the RSI troops in these last days, much fighters no know the existence of the proyect, but the great part yes.
Very different situations born in this time, in concrete 1 situation every 1 group of fighters.
Groups in relativity short distance to meetingpoint maybe don't know the proyect and goups in long distance maybe yes.
Some Groups decide that was impossible chance search to go, cause the impossible way of the trip.
Some Groups start from short distance and never arrive.
Some others also never arrive but win much more % distance respect others group in better dislocation.
Some was stopped.
Much others with hard work win some Km.
Others never start.
Much of these differens siuations depend of the steight consistence of the differens Groups. (see the "Mussolini" column,never stopped for much km crossing several bloked ways, and only stopped for a strange casuality)
All these different situations freeze when arrive the notice of the death of the Duce.
Much columns of fighters was in free situation and with relativity possiblity for arrive to meeting point at the moment of the notice.
Much others no.
In any case what i want say in my olds messages is that the idea of last meeting of all troops exist,and he start for born,but cause the facts,never realizated.
In concrete the last order was "Cerchiamo ,se possibile ,di raggrupparci in Valtellina il più presto possiblile"..or so.
with friendly
Luca
PS = concern the psicologic (please,put same "y" in casual place,im tired cause i vent drink my first coffee) situation of the Duce is obvious that we can only think some opinables opinions,but now i remember that in some place of my very ordinate home i ve a copy of a paper write from Benito Mussolini during the last days of life.Maybe can help thinkers and opinioners to make some personal comment. If i ve the lucky of find the copy in this great revolution home i will show here,and i hope that You will traslate in Your great english for Ours. Thank you.
[/quote]
Im very sad that exist again someone that can think that this bad history create from the comunists only for destroy the memory of Mussolini is right.GLADIVM wrote:and taking with tehm only Mussolini dressed in a german overcat and helmet ,
If You read the declarations of the "wittness" that declare this You can yourself make a different idea.
Luca
Luca , what do you mean ? That Mussolini was not the only Italian taken by the Germans ? Or that he was not wearing a german overcoat and helmet and was seated in a german truck ?
Please let me know because this is the only version of Mussolini capture that I ever heard , if you know that happened in a different way pls give
your version .
GLADIVM
Please let me know because this is the only version of Mussolini capture that I ever heard , if you know that happened in a different way pls give
your version .
GLADIVM