Where was Mussolini hoping to flee to when caught?

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gabriel pagliarani
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Re: Mussolini's capture

#76

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 09 Nov 2003, 08:37

kevin wrote:Mussolini and his mistress Clara Petacci were captured on their way to Germany in the back of a German truck dressed in German uniforms.
I do not wish to add any details, the previous entries do not leave room for more. One point that has not been mentioned is that one of the partisan leaders who decided to kill Mussolini and Clara Petacci was Sandro Pertini, Italian President in the 1980s.
Uncorrect. Not Pertini but Longo. I don't understand the meaning you add to the german coat dressed by Mussolini: Kesselring was just surrended to CLN in Milan in the hands of Cardinal Schuster. Therefore german troops were free to leave Italy thru Brenner Pass without being attacked. Mussolini was shot because he was Mussolini, not because he was wearing the uniform of the enemy. Also some of those partisans were dressing german coats: not only! Those who fired Mussolini dressed new british "battle dresses" and all the people involved immediately noted this strange "too perfect" circumstance. British troops were hundreds kms far from the Lake, on Via Emilia.

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GLADIVM
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#77

Post by GLADIVM » 10 Nov 2003, 05:18

Sorry Gabriel ,

But Kesselring never surrendered to to CLN in Milano or to Cardinal Schster , by the war end , Kesselring was the Supreme Commander of the Western Front and was not in Italy but in Germany and surrendered to the British troops there .

Yours

GLADIVM


gabriel pagliarani
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#78

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 10 Nov 2003, 12:18

GLADIVM wrote:Sorry Gabriel ,

But Kesselring never surrendered to to CLN in Milano or to Cardinal Schster , by the war end , Kesselring was the Supreme Commander of the Western Front and was not in Italy but in Germany and surrendered to the British troops there .

Yours

GLADIVM
You are correct but the fact still stands. Replace "Kesselring" with "Kesselring's troops".

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GLADIVM
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#79

Post by GLADIVM » 12 Nov 2003, 06:23

I cannot agree that Kesselring or Kesselring's troops are the same thing , If you write down that Kesselring at war's end was in the hands of CLN in Italy it means just this , that you made a mistake .
It is especially important because you are out to make a point , namely that Kesselring , Graziani and so on ... betrayed the Duce and delivered him to the partisans , If you want this to be believed , you must be consistent with all the steps and if you make much such gross mistakes , you simply weaken all yr arguments , how can I believe in yr unproven theory if you do not know that Kesserling was not in Italy at the time and that the negotiations for surrender of German forces in Italy were made without his assent and knowledge , by Wolff and that when Kesselring was informed around end April he was strongly opposed and wished to continue resistance to the Aliies . Also afetr his capture by the Allies in germany , Kesserling insisted to be allowed to fly to Yugoslavia to try to restore some order in the retreat there and help to bring the soldiers home and surrender to the british instead of Tito's bands .
Such man does sound as a traitor , also Kesserling was in the wide sense a friend of Italy and an admirer of the Duce . So his partecipation in such a plot seems unlikely .

I write all this without any animosity and just for sake of truth , also because otherwise some of the less informed members might take yr statements at face value and get to wrong conclusions .
History is made of know and less known facts till now there is no evidence that the Duce was betrayed by anyone ,
If so happened there must be some traces , documents , eyewitnesses somewhere , how come that no one ever heard them ,
If instead is just me who does not know about such things , pls try to prove me wrong , I will be very interested to learn something new .

I agree with you that Mussolini was not going to Switzerland , but where was he going ???

I think we also agree that Mussolini was going to a meeting with some british agents where he hoped to exchange some compromising papers (compromising for Churchill ) with his life , but something went wrong and this meeting never happened and he was first captured in Dongo .

May be the agents got to him later at Casa De Maria and founding no bags shoot him or he was shot trying to defend Claretta , probably we will never know .

But is also difficult to believe that Mussolini was going to Valtellina , if so why did he not travel with the Milano column , in the midst of few thousand fascist he would have been safer than in a small convoy .
Many of the Fascisti even at that hour were ready and even eager to give their life for him but he deserted them .
Many paid the highest price for their faith in Fascism and Mussolini .


Yours

Gladivm

gabriel pagliarani
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#80

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 13 Nov 2003, 12:10

GLADIVM wrote:...I agree with you that Mussolini was not going to Switzerland , but where was he going ???....Gladivm
Not in Switzerland, not in Valtellina, not thru Brenner Pass....the only conclusion of your exhaustive arguing is that Mussolini was waiting for the same UFO which picked up the stealth Nazi A-bomb from Thuringia to Anctartica. :cry: Do you know the meaning of April 25 in Italy?End of war in Italy = Armistice of German troops. 2-3 days before Mussolini's killing.(2 in the unofficial version, 3 in the official one) All your sillogistic arguing about who surrended, when and where, is a non-sense.

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GLADIVM
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#81

Post by GLADIVM » 14 Nov 2003, 04:46

Dear Gabriel ,

I already said that Mussolini was going to a meeting with British agents , unfortunately I do not know the location , as also you dont .

As usual when short of arguments you resort to insults or try to make fun of the person who has a differente opinion of yours .

I do believe that the Forum scope is not of infighting between members but try to find out truth , with you this is obviously impossibile as only yr position is the correct one , therefore I believe that any further discussion with you is meaningless .

Yours

GLADIVM

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#82

Post by GLADIVM » 14 Nov 2003, 04:46

Dear Gabriel ,

I already said that Mussolini was going to a meeting with British agents , unfortunately I do not know the location , as also you dont .

As usual when short of arguments you resort to insults or try to make fun of the person who has a differente opinion of yours .

I do believe that the Forum scope is not of infighting between members but try to find out truth , with you this is obviously impossibile as only yr position is the correct one , therefore I believe that any further discussion with you is meaningless .

Yours

GLADIVM

bonzen
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#83

Post by bonzen » 23 Nov 2003, 03:29

Some observations:

If Mussolini was on his way to meet with British agents those agents would not have been MI5. They would have been MI6 (SIS) working in conjunction with SOE. Working in section V (5) with responsiblity for the Iberian peninsula, France, and Italy was Kim Philby. He worked there until Oct 1944 when he was transferred to the newly created section IX that dealt with the Soviet Union and anti-communist insurgency around the world. Naturally, intelligence concerning communist partisans crossed his desk. While in section V he gave the Soviets lists of all MI6 agents in the areas mentioned above as well as MI6 agents in the Soviet Union.
He warned the Soviets that the British Government would support Communist movements in occupied Europe until the end of the war as long as they weren't strong enough to seize power after the German defeat. If they did come to power then the British government would work against them.
This contributed to the Soviet decision to remove all non-communist opposition wherever possible.

So, if Mussolini was going to meet British agents, it is more than likely that Moscow knew about it too and he was intercepted. There very well might have been British agents everywhere....but their mission was known.

gabriel pagliarani
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#84

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 25 Nov 2003, 16:43

bonzen wrote:Some observations:

If Mussolini was on his way to meet with British agents those agents would not have been MI5. They would have been MI6 (SIS) working in conjunction with SOE. Working in section V (5) with responsiblity for the Iberian peninsula, France, and Italy was Kim Philby. He worked there until Oct 1944 when he was transferred to the newly created section IX that dealt with the Soviet Union and anti-communist insurgency around the world. Naturally, intelligence concerning communist partisans crossed his desk. While in section V he gave the Soviets lists of all MI6 agents in the areas mentioned above as well as MI6 agents in the Soviet Union.
He warned the Soviets that the British Government would support Communist movements in occupied Europe until the end of the war as long as they weren't strong enough to seize power after the German defeat. If they did come to power then the British government would work against them.
This contributed to the Soviet decision to remove all non-communist opposition wherever possible.

So, if Mussolini was going to meet British agents, it is more than likely that Moscow knew about it too and he was intercepted. There very well might have been British agents everywhere....but their mission was known.
Ohhh...finally the point! Kilby was a traitor. He was a Soviet agent. :D Cold war begun with the killing of Mussolini, when the war was still running. He also killed Neri and probably Macarrone.

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#85

Post by bonzen » 26 Nov 2003, 03:52

Philby was in London. He personally never killed anyone. But the information he provided the Soviets resulted in the death of hundreds. During the war and after. Any British agent in Italy was compromised.

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#86

Post by FB » 26 Nov 2003, 09:55

I can understand killing Mussolini, but why "Neri" (and "Gianna" too, I'd add)?

Mr. Gorreri and other high ranking Commuists had a lot of "reasons" to kill him/them as far as I have understood, but why should Moscow/traitor driven Brtitish Services would want to kill Neri and Gianna?

Just curious :)

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gabriel pagliarani
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#87

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 26 Nov 2003, 19:14

bonzen wrote:Philby was in London. He personally never killed anyone. But the information he provided the Soviets resulted in the death of hundreds. During the war and after. Any British agent in Italy was compromised.
Obviously. :lol: He ordered to kill those few eye-witnesses to other agents under his own hierarchy: Philby produced towards Allieds the mystificated killing of Mussolini from Partizans, but something in this Soviet originated plan failed and the real "treasure of Dongo" was elseway returned in Churchill' s hands, but not immediately (..so I argue). This is only a close "higly probable" version of those facts from mine: all evidencies were hidden in G.B. and S.U. Deductive arguing, not inductive.(meaning=without any scientific value) More than a strange killing in Italy could be linked to Philby's "paso doble". The "ukase" inside British Secret Services between loyalists and communists resulted in a carnificine: SAS were not depending directly from MIs offices and they were out of Kilby' s direct control. Macarrone and his SAS squad were liquidated by communists: also Neri (their pathfinder) was terminated by british traitors or by red partisans obeying directly to those. Was Gianna among those unconvenient italian eye-witnesses? :roll: Quien sabe...
Nice job from the Windy City! :wink:

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#88

Post by FB » 27 Nov 2003, 10:15

gabriel pagliarani wrote:
bonzen wrote:Philby was in London. He personally never killed anyone. But the information he provided the Soviets resulted in the death of hundreds. During the war and after. Any British agent in Italy was compromised.
Obviously. :lol: He ordered to kill those few eye-witnesses to other agents under his own hierarchy: Philby produced towards Allieds the mystificated killing of Mussolini from Partizans, but something in this Soviet originated plan failed and the real "treasure of Dongo" was elseway returned in Churchill' s hands, but not immediately (..so I argue). This is only a close "higly probable" version of those facts from mine: all evidencies were hidden in G.B. and S.U. Deductive arguing, not inductive.(meaning=without any scientific value) More than a strange killing in Italy could be linked to Philby's "paso doble". The "ukase" inside British Secret Services between loyalists and communists resulted in a carnificine: SAS were not depending directly from MIs offices and they were out of Kilby' s direct control. Macarrone and his SAS squad were liquidated by communists: also Neri (their pathfinder) was terminated by british traitors or by red partisans obeying directly to those. Was Gianna among those unconvenient italian eye-witnesses? :roll: Quien sabe...
Nice job from the Windy City! :wink:
Interesting deductive reasonment. The "idea" of two "parties" in the British secret services came also into my mind and I wrote about it some posts above.

For what I understood of this rather misterious matter, Gianna was surely, for someone, a very unconfortable eyewitness of the last days af April 1945 in the area near Dongo: she was there with "Neri", "Bill", "Pedro", "Pietro" and so on. She, with "Neri", made two lists of what was being found (documents, money, jewels etc) in the column by the partizans. She was seated on the side of Mussolini when "Neri" decided to bring him and Claretta, with two cars, from Germasino to San Maurizio (above Brunate, a hill - 1.000 meters high - that towers the city of Como), a trip that aborted in the main square of Moltrasio, when "Neri" and the others heard quite heavy small arms fire towards Cernobbio (they would have to pass through this town). She knew all the higher ranks of the partizans, especially the communists, as she was one of them. But, above all, she was deeply in love with "Neri". He was her man. When he disappeared (above Dongo, in the woods of Stazzona? In Milano, on the banks of the Naviglio Pavese?) and voices spreaded about him being eliminated, she became a real, and strong, "pain in the a**" for all the "red" nomenclatura of Lombardia, and not only: she spoke also to Togliatti and had a talk with his wife too. "Neri" 's sister helped her in finding out the truth. This last was saved by her husban, a comunist aswell, who obliged her to take a pause in her serch, because the "big ones" were becoming very upset about the matter.

"Gianna" knew too much about lots of things and, probably, she was on her way to discover, or suspect, the truth about "Neri" 's faith, and she was "taken care" of accordingly. The real reasons behind "Neri" elimination were, and are, a secret to be protected against any kind of investigation.

Best regards

gabriel pagliarani
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#89

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 27 Nov 2003, 16:37

Thanks FB! Another tile in that giant puzzle... :wink:

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Re: Where was Mussolini hoping to flee to when caught?

#90

Post by Panzermahn » 15 Aug 2012, 06:00

I read a story about Mussolini, just before he took the journey out of Milan and face his end at Fellmayer's column, he was offered (together with his family) an aircraft painted in Slovakian colours to fly to Spain (General Franco refused to take in any aircraft marked in Italian colours). However Mussolini refused to do so, and it was reported that he knew it was the end and instead, he wanted the "bella morte".

Is this story true? If this is true, it would confirm that Mussolini wasn't looking to escape or flee to Switzerland but actually he was planning for a fascist last stand at Valtellina (even if he doesn't know if there isn't any such concrete plans).

In fact, it was post-war propaganda that portrayed Mussolini as a coward who wanted to flee to Switzerland.

One of communist partisans (i forgot the name) who was part of the execution team, testified that Mussolini faced his death bravely, asking the firing squad to aim for his heart. This was part of the PCI archives/letters which was partially released in the 1960s

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