Does anybody has informations about black men in italy, during the Mussolini years?
Any example of blacks in the arditi, PNF, Musketeers of the duce or any others fascist organisations?
Pics are welcome!
Thanks in advance.
Black men in Fascist italy
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Lupo Solitario
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PanzerKing
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Lupo Solitario
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gencom
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Well, and what was the treatment of these men in the Mussolini years? any possibilities to being part of the "fascist nation"? (For ex. enter in a fascist organisation) or no way (Any decrees -please, give us sources-)?
Sorry but who can let us beleive that they had no black men in Italy at that time? It is a non sens.
Any concretes informations are welcome. Thanks.
Sorry but who can let us beleive that they had no black men in Italy at that time? It is a non sens.
Any concretes informations are welcome. Thanks.
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Jeremy Chan
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Well, the Italian colonies were considered Italian soil. Thus the populace of Eritrea, Italian Somaliland and to a much lesser extent Libya -- countries (excluding the latter) which bore a black majority population -- were Italian citizens and could rightfully call themselves Italians.gencom wrote:Well, and what was the treatment of these men in the Mussolini years? any possibilities to being part of the "fascist nation"? (For ex. enter in a fascist organisation) or no way (Any decrees -please, give us sources-)?
Sorry but who can let us beleive that they had no black men in Italy at that time? It is a non sens.
Any concretes informations are welcome. Thanks.
As for those in Italy proper, of course the colonial population could travel to the 'mother country' for work etc. And that would consist the main black population. Racism would exist in one degree or other but I'm not sure about Italian fascist racial doctrines if any.
Thus they could enrol in their local Fascist wing or council shoul they choose too.
That's all I have, hope i helped.
Cheers,
Jeremy
On this thread there are some pictures showing children from Ethiopia and Eritrea in italian fascist youth organisations
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6117
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6117
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Lupo Solitario
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a couple of italian laws about black people
Law 1004 of June 29, 1939 – XVII
Art. 1: Injury of the prestige of the race: For present law it’s injury of prestige of race any act made by a citizen abusing his autority of member of Italian race or lacking to duties coming from this membership in face of natives so to lower in their minds the morale image of Italian people.
For same law it ‘s injury of prestige of Italian race any act of natives aimed to offend the citizen as member of Italian race or, anyway, in hate to Italian race
Art. 2: Definition of citizen: For present law:
a) Italian citizen means the metropolitane Italian citizen of arian race
b) Arian race stranger is equivalent to metropolitan Italian citizen
c) The stranger, member of a population with tradition, habit and ideas…similar to Italian Africa natives is equivalent to Italian Africa natives
[omissis]
Art. 10: Marriage: The citizen having a wedding kind relation with a native is punised with jail from one to five years
[omissis]
Art. 12 Public Places: The citizen who in Italian Africa territories, is in public places opened to natives is punished with jail til six months or with a fine til 2000 lire
Law 822 of June 13, 1940 – XVIII
Art. 1 For present law:
a) citizen means the metropolitan Italian citizen
b) native means who has the special citizenship as for art.4 R.D: January 9 1939, the lybian Italian citizen and the Italian Africa subjects
c) [omissis]
d) Mestizo means the born from citizen parent and an Italian Africa parent…
Art. 2 The mestizo has the native parent status and is native under all viewpoints…
Art.3 The mestizo can’t be reckoned by citizen parent
Art. 4 The mestizo can’t have the family name of citizen parent
Art. 5 Breeding and education of mestizo is totally on charge of native parent.
Art.6 All sort of school for mestizos are forbidden. Schools for nationals can’t keep mestizos…
Art. 7 Adoption of mestizos by citizens is forbidden
…
Law 1004 of June 29, 1939 – XVII
Art. 1: Injury of the prestige of the race: For present law it’s injury of prestige of race any act made by a citizen abusing his autority of member of Italian race or lacking to duties coming from this membership in face of natives so to lower in their minds the morale image of Italian people.
For same law it ‘s injury of prestige of Italian race any act of natives aimed to offend the citizen as member of Italian race or, anyway, in hate to Italian race
Art. 2: Definition of citizen: For present law:
a) Italian citizen means the metropolitane Italian citizen of arian race
b) Arian race stranger is equivalent to metropolitan Italian citizen
c) The stranger, member of a population with tradition, habit and ideas…similar to Italian Africa natives is equivalent to Italian Africa natives
[omissis]
Art. 10: Marriage: The citizen having a wedding kind relation with a native is punised with jail from one to five years
[omissis]
Art. 12 Public Places: The citizen who in Italian Africa territories, is in public places opened to natives is punished with jail til six months or with a fine til 2000 lire
Law 822 of June 13, 1940 – XVIII
Art. 1 For present law:
a) citizen means the metropolitan Italian citizen
b) native means who has the special citizenship as for art.4 R.D: January 9 1939, the lybian Italian citizen and the Italian Africa subjects
c) [omissis]
d) Mestizo means the born from citizen parent and an Italian Africa parent…
Art. 2 The mestizo has the native parent status and is native under all viewpoints…
Art.3 The mestizo can’t be reckoned by citizen parent
Art. 4 The mestizo can’t have the family name of citizen parent
Art. 5 Breeding and education of mestizo is totally on charge of native parent.
Art.6 All sort of school for mestizos are forbidden. Schools for nationals can’t keep mestizos…
Art. 7 Adoption of mestizos by citizens is forbidden
…
For Lybian ( but only the muslims )it was The " Associazione Mussulmana del Littorio"with special uniforms and for the youth the "Gioventù Araba del Littorio"(G.A.L.) with differents section for age , like the G.I.L. but with no girls .
For Etiopia it was "Gioventù Etiopica del Littorio " also with female sections . No adults organizations , but some indigenous can be in the municipals councils with italians . was a consultive board for the podestà ( major).
In Lybia natives ex officiers of the Turkish army maintein the "status " of officiers in Italian army also during fascist period ; are very few but one finish his career with the grade of Primo Capitano in the 30'
For Etiopia it was "Gioventù Etiopica del Littorio " also with female sections . No adults organizations , but some indigenous can be in the municipals councils with italians . was a consultive board for the podestà ( major).
In Lybia natives ex officiers of the Turkish army maintein the "status " of officiers in Italian army also during fascist period ; are very few but one finish his career with the grade of Primo Capitano in the 30'
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gencom
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Well, Thanks very much for all these very interesting informations & link (Very interesting link with black children, members of the fascist youth organisation!!!).
So it seems that before 1939 and these statements (thanks lupo!), Italy was not a racist state and few black men were part of some fascist organisations.
Again many thanks for your help.
So it seems that before 1939 and these statements (thanks lupo!), Italy was not a racist state and few black men were part of some fascist organisations.
Again many thanks for your help.
I think you'll find much like any other country back then in continental Europe that the majority of countries were made up of 99.9% of their own people, or some from a neighboring country.
The only time my father mentions of black people around that time in Italy is of children brought into the country by church organisations, either these children were from ophanges or did not have adequate living due to drought etc at times.
Please dont take this as my own view as it isnt, but at the time when they were seen it was a slight culture shock to alot of them as back then in the small villages etc it was ever only people of Italian origin.
Also Indian soldiers when they first arrived with long hair different religin etc, my father remembers alot of them being spat on till they began to blend in more and then were well like in his area afterwards once people began to realise they were people just like anyone else.
Hope this helps, but you have to try to think back to what the era was actually like, not todays totaly different era.
The only time my father mentions of black people around that time in Italy is of children brought into the country by church organisations, either these children were from ophanges or did not have adequate living due to drought etc at times.
Please dont take this as my own view as it isnt, but at the time when they were seen it was a slight culture shock to alot of them as back then in the small villages etc it was ever only people of Italian origin.
Also Indian soldiers when they first arrived with long hair different religin etc, my father remembers alot of them being spat on till they began to blend in more and then were well like in his area afterwards once people began to realise they were people just like anyone else.
Hope this helps, but you have to try to think back to what the era was actually like, not todays totaly different era.
Well,
I didn't actually want to go in the subject for fear of being misunderstood, but after having read NapoliII contribution, let me add that what he says might be true until very recent times.
I for myself grew up in a northern Italian city, Bolzano/Bozen, at the border with Austria. Well end of the '70ies, beginning of the '80ies, when i was between 10 and 15 age, there was only 1 (one) black person in Bolzano, he was more or less of my age and we played toghether sometimes. He was renowed by all. If I now think how street look like today it seems impossible to think it was only some 20 years ago...
I hope it won't sound aphologetic (with all due respect to other's opinion, it is very far from my intention and political believes, I ensure you) but, indeed, a song like "faccetta nera", which today might sound racistic, was in fact well ahead its time in terms of "progressivity" or "political correctness" and it is a fact that the aggression to Ethiopia brought as an incidental byproduct the end of slavery in that area.
Regards
I didn't actually want to go in the subject for fear of being misunderstood, but after having read NapoliII contribution, let me add that what he says might be true until very recent times.
I for myself grew up in a northern Italian city, Bolzano/Bozen, at the border with Austria. Well end of the '70ies, beginning of the '80ies, when i was between 10 and 15 age, there was only 1 (one) black person in Bolzano, he was more or less of my age and we played toghether sometimes. He was renowed by all. If I now think how street look like today it seems impossible to think it was only some 20 years ago...
I hope it won't sound aphologetic (with all due respect to other's opinion, it is very far from my intention and political believes, I ensure you) but, indeed, a song like "faccetta nera", which today might sound racistic, was in fact well ahead its time in terms of "progressivity" or "political correctness" and it is a fact that the aggression to Ethiopia brought as an incidental byproduct the end of slavery in that area.
Regards
Gencom, it is not really related to the point I was trying to make.
The pictures show, or want to show, that, after all, we were "educating" the "good salvage" to bee a good and loyal fascist citizen.
I just wanted to say that the racial melting pot we are experiencing now is a recent acquisition and therefore, songs or attitude which today sonds or look racistic were, in the context of time, maybe seen as very progressive.
Regards
The pictures show, or want to show, that, after all, we were "educating" the "good salvage" to bee a good and loyal fascist citizen.
I just wanted to say that the racial melting pot we are experiencing now is a recent acquisition and therefore, songs or attitude which today sonds or look racistic were, in the context of time, maybe seen as very progressive.
Regards