Muslims in the Balkans

[kordts]

[split from the "US troops captured by Red Army: 1945" topic]

Then again there were cases where one Allied nation screwed over the other. France imprisioned anti-fascist Republican soldiers and refugees. The Warsaw Uprising in 1944 wasn't aided much by USSR. For a while all Big Three nations didn't help the Yugoslav Partisans and instead supported their enemies - the Serb Chetniks who later became fascist and slaughtered Muslims for no reason. I don't doubt some of this happened between the USA and the USSR but then again as I have pointed out - everyone including the best of friends have done something to each other in World War II and 20th century.

THECLASH, I can't let that line about slaughtering Muslims for no reason pass. The Muslims were border crossing from Albania, much like the Mexicans come across our southern borders. Once they became a majority, they wanted to seceed from Serbia and form a Greater Albania. The Muslims were using terror tactics and the Serbs fought back. Until we bombed the crap out of them. It's pretty much what will happen if we can't control our borders and La Raza claims Aztlan back because of demographics.

Cheers, Jeff.

[TISO]

THIS IS TOTALY OFF TOPIC BUT I CAN'T LET THIS PASS
Mea culpa mea maxima culpa!
I humbly beg for mercy from our strict moderator.

Kordts where did you get your information?

Kordts for your information not all muslims in former Yugoslavia were Albanians crossing Serbian border to live in Serb paradise ( in their case it would be Serbian western border ). I would suggest that you take a map of Yugoslavia and Balcans ( i think it will not be difficoult to find) and a history book about Bosnia (where most of theese massacres took place during WW2 and few years back), Albania or Balcans in general .

Little crash history course of a mess called Yugoslavia for our friend Kordts.

Bosnia itself used to be independent kingdom ( last bosnian queen - wife of last king Tvrdko II is buried in Rome) and it was NEVER part of Serbia or Croatia. Under heredetary contract ( with Herman II of Celje(Cilia)) after death of last man in line, kingdom became proprety of counts ( later Dukes) of Celje ( Cilia) in 12th cetury ( i figure that makes them Slovenes ).

After winning battle of Kosovo polje (1389 one and only battle between Tuks and Serbs for about 450 years) Turkish empire took hold of Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Rumania etc. In Bosnia itself there was religious minority called Bogumili ( trans. Gods favourites - still little is known about them i think they were something as Katars in Aquitania) who were prosecuted as heretics by official church. Turks were realativly mild rulers ( concernig religion) and they welcomed them as liberators. Most of them took muslim religion along with some christians. Ethnicly they are slavic ( languge, customs etc.) and they never considered themselves as Turks. Most of Turkish armies that plagued Holy roman empire in late middle ages were in fact soldiers from Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia and Albania bound to serve in Turkish armed forces ( for example in battle against Timurlenk in Anatolia Serb soldiers ( christians) comprised bulk of heavy cavalery that fought with distinction). After colapse of Turkish empire Austro- Hungarian empire annexed Bosnia ( 1875). Bosnian muslims were given a lot of privileges ( their own regiments etc.) and they served K.u.K army with distinction in WW 1. Others were not given such privileges. They never used terror tactics ( where did you get your information?)

About Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia. Most Serbs that lived in Croatia and northern Bosnia were exiles in middle ages when their country was under Turkish control. They were known as Uskoki and were settled in border areas ( Lika, northern Bosnia). They had similar priveleges and obligations as Cossaks in Russia ( they were not subject to feudalism and they fielded own miltary formations based on teritorial principle when emperor called for them) and were known as good soldiers.

About Albanians it is true they started to settle in Kosovo region under Turkish rule. That coused problems then as it is problem now as Kosovo is considered by most Serbs as heart of Serbia ( it was centre of Serbian kingdom until 1389).
Not all Albanians are muslims. There are quite a few Chatolic and Ortodox christians among them. They are one of the oldest nations in the balcans ( they are Iliri) and coused quite a few problems to the Roman empire ( as pirates) and later Turks (Skenderbeg - they repulsed Turkish army 17 times).

About using terror tactisc. This is a door that swings boath ways. In Kosovo it was tit for tat for last 500 years. It is a little known fact that Albanians did mutinie after ww2 ( 1948). Tito send the 4.th army to ''pacifie'' the region. They had similar succes as Milshevic forces in late 1990's, only no NATO intervention. Problem is that most of the land they have was simply bought from Serbs.

So Kordts think ( or read a book about the subject ) before you write something.

[kordts]

Tiso,
I wasn't talking about WW2 stuff, but the recent Albanian invasion/colonization of Kosovo and the NATO bombings on the Serbs. I got most of my 411 from a Serb co-worker on the nightshift of a nuke outage. He was a machinist and I was a pipefitter, we had a lot of time to kill and he told me a lot of stuff that I wasn't aware of.

Peace out,
Kordts.

[TISO]

Sorry for beeing so rough.

[G. Trifkovic]

Bosnian muslims were given a lot of privileges ( their own regiments etc.) and they served K.u.K army with distinction in WW 1. Others were not given such privileges.

Actually,Bosnian Muslims had no regiments of their own-all adult males of every religion were subject to conscription as of 1882. This law provoked widespread unrest and even armed uprising in some parts of the country (Herzegovina most notably).
Notable priviliges Bosnian Muslims were given, were retaining of religious courts for civil cases (sharia),retaining control of Vakufs (something like traditional hereditary trusts) and retaining some of the old ottoman laws concerning serfs-no agrarian reform took place,and by 1918. most of the land was still in the hands of the old muslim landowner aristocracy.
Catholic church,naturally,went trough renaissance,building churches and cathedrals,schools and monasteries and widening it's influence under it's able head Archbishop Juraj Stadler. But to think that they were openly favorized by the new government would be wrong: knowing the nature of the country and it's people, Austro-Hungarians took precaution not to alienate any of the religious groups,maintaing the "equality of everyone under the law" policy,

Cheers,

Gaius

[Lars EP]

Tiso,
I wasn't talking about WW2 stuff, but the recent Albanian invasion/colonization of Kosovo and the NATO bombings on the Serbs. I got most of my 411 from a Serb co-worker on the nightshift of a nuke outage. He was a machinist and I was a pipefitter, we had a lot of time to kill and he told me a lot of stuff that I wasn't aware of.

Peace out,
Kordts.

Certainly also an un-biased, objective source... You know, doing a bit of checking up om your sources will do you no harm. E.G. many Serbs denied the ethnic cleansings that took place in the civil-war, until the recent release of video-footage clearly showing Serb para-militaries executing Bosnian moslems... in good old SS-style.

Regards --- Lars

[kordts]

How about all the Serbs the Albanian terrorists killed? The Albanians were trying to ethnically cleanse the serbs out of Kosovo. The Serbs retaliated in kind and were getting the upper hand. The US/NATO bombed the serbs until they gave up. Now the Albanians have pretty much ethnically cleansed Kosovo. That's the deal.

Peace out,

Kordts.

[Krasnaya Zvezda]

Tiso,
I wasn't talking about WW2 stuff, but the recent Albanian invasion/colonization of Kosovo and the NATO bombings on the Serbs. I got most of my 411 from a Serb co-worker on the nightshift of a nuke outage. He was a machinist and I was a pipefitter, we had a lot of time to kill and he told me a lot of stuff that I wasn't aware of.

Peace out,
Kordts.

Certainly also an un-biased, objective source... You know, doing a bit of checking up om your sources will do you no harm. E,G. many Serbs denied the ethnic cleansings that took place in the civil-war, until thcent release of video-footage clearly showing Serb para-militaries executing Bosnian moslems... in good old SS-style.

Regards --- Lars

Actually, nobody denied ethnic cleansing in Bosnia once the war started. What Serbs denied (and that is true) is that they did not try to ethnicly cleanse the Albanians from Kosovo. Look at the numbers yourself on the population of Kosovo and tell us when did the Serbs ethnically cleansed the Albanians.


Actually , the opposite holds true. If somebody was ethnically cleansed are the Serbs from Croatia, probably Bosnia in aprts hold by mainly Croats, and maybe muslims and definitely from Kosovo.

[doc159]

kordits,
Balkan Muslims are not invaders but local population who took islam after Ottoman occupation in 14th & 15th century.That occupation was one of the most brutal in Europe history and after liberation of Balkan nations(Serbia 1804,Greece 1821 and Bulgaria 1876) they(Serbs,Greeks,Bulgarians) were very pissed on local muslims and blamed them for suffering they've been through in four centuries of Ottoman occupation. Most of Serbian,Greek and Bulgarian muslims were forced to abandon new formed Balkan states and escape in Turkey and Bosnia(which was at that time still part of ottoman empire and in 1878 became part of AH monarchy).The hate between christians and muslims remained and still exist,as we could see from the latest war in that region.
Albanians are old Balkan nation but they were under foreign reign for more than millenium(Roman,Byzantyn,Serbian and Ottoman),and their first independent state was created in 1913 after Balcan wars(1912-1913).Large part of Albanian population were left outside new formed state in Serbia(Kosovo),southern Montenegro,western Macedonia and some parts of Greece.
Kosovo was the part of Serbian empire in middle age and was populated mostly with Serbs.But after the fall of Serbian state in 1459,and some uprising against turks in 17th century most of serbian population migrated on north and west and they left empty land which was populated by Albanians.There was no war between Serbia and Albania so you can't say that albanians occupied Kosovo.They simply took adventage of the situation.
The things that happened in 1999 were just the end of process which begin few centuries ago.Today there is over 80% of albanians in Kosovo and they have right to claim it(autonomy at least).
There were many crimes against Serbs in history but it's not excuse for Serbian crimes against Muslims in 1990's.

[kordts]

They didn't get the 80 percent until just recently. They were border crossing, with the aim of getting the population scale in their balance. And it's worked, once they had the demographics were in their favor, they demanded independance/autonomy. All I can do is tip my hat to them, their plan worked. A lot of Mexicans want to do the same to the the South-western US, why not? It worked in Kosovo.

Peace out,

Kordts

[Krasnaya Zvezda]

The things that happened in 1999 were just the end of process which begin few centuries ago.Today there is over 80% of albanians in Kosovo and they have right to claim it(autonomy at least).
There were many crimes against Serbs in history but it's not excuse for Serbian crimes against Muslims in 1990's.

Check your data. First, there was no really clear Albanian majority till almost the end of the 19 century. 400,00018 Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Turkish war of 1897. According to Austrian sources, even till somewhere mid of the 19 centruy the predominant population was Slavic in Kosovo. Anyhow, Albanians are more than 60% of the population from the turn of the 20 century, end of 19 century. And what is amazing is that this pecentage stays constant till after WWII. Than what happens is:

1953 they are around 65%
1971 71%
1981 77%
While in the 1990's they get close to 90%. As we can see, the major ethnic change has occured after the WWII in a so call Serb dominated Yugoslavia.

Today, after the 1999 NATO bombing they are more than 95%, the biggest ethnic cleansing has occured thanks to the NATO bombing and it still persist. They are practically no more Serbs left there which is a shame. And I really do not understand, what crimes against the Muslims Serbs commited in the 1990's? If somebody was not possible to live among the muslims for decades it is the Slavic population, not otherwise around , as the numbers of Albanians would not have increased so drastically. All the best

[G. Trifkovic]

And I really do not understand, what crimes against the Muslims Serbs commited in the 1990's?

Do you reffer to Bosnian Muslims,or Muslims in the Balkans in general?

Cheers,

[Allen Milcic]

For a while all Big Three nations didn't help the Yugoslav Partisans and instead supported their enemies - the Serb Chetniks who later became fascist and slaughtered Muslims for no reason.

THECLASH, I can't let that line about slaughtering Muslims for no reason pass. The Muslims were border crossing from Albania, much like the Mexicans come across our southern borders. Once they became a majority, they wanted to seceed from Serbia and form a Greater Albania. The Muslims were using terror tactics and the Serbs fought back. Until we bombed the crap out of them. It's pretty much what will happen if we can't control our borders and La Raza claims Aztlan back because of demographics..

kordts:

THECLASH was referring to the WW2 slaughter of Bosnian Muslims by Cetniks - not Kosovo/Albania and not the 1990's.

I would also recommend sources other than a "Serb co-worker on the nightshift" if you would like to even begin understanding the utter mess that Balkan history and politics are all about. If you are interested I can point out some good initial reading.

Regards,
Allen/

[doc159]

Krasnaya Zvezda,
I would appreciate if you could give me more information on events between 1876 and 1912 on Kosovo.I can't see connection
between greek-turkish war and Kosovo.
I'm reserching Balkan history and I'm in contact with several Serbian historians(including profesors on Belgrade University) and I will try to find out more about these events,but it would be nice if you can refer me on any sources.
But what I do know is that in 1690 there was mayor migration of serbian population from Kosovo.It was result of Serbian participation in war on Austrian side(austrian-turkish war 1683-1699) and following turkish reprisal on Serbs.Some sources are saying that every male citizen of Prishtina was killed after turkish reoccupation of the town.Similiar things happend all over Kosovo.That was the moment when Albanians came in larger number(although albanians participate on Austrian side also).
After liberation of Kosovo in 1912 there were attempts to repopulate province with serbian population but in ww2 about 300.000 Serbs left Kosovo again.Interesting thing is that komunist Tito goverment forbbid those Serbs to return after ww2.Albanians than start presure on remaining serbs to migrate in central Serbia.They were buying serbian land and became large mayority in Kosovo.I don't say it's fair but Serbs can only blame themselves aloving this to happened.
Even Serbian goverment admited massacres in Bosnia so I don't see the reason why you can't.

[kordts]

Allen,
thanks for the offer. I was kinda shortnin' things up with the co-worker comment. I am probably more knowledgable about the Balkans than 95% of Americans. That means there is a lot I don't know. I guess I am kinda ticked that most people think that the Serbs were straight up bad guys in Kosovo. Most of the Serbs I know don't help their cause because they have a "we have been persecuted for centuries" complex and won't admit to any Serb wrongdoing. No side can claim to be innocent here, but I think that no one can disagree with the fact that the Albanians have ethnically cleansed Kosovo, even after the UN took over. Please list some books for me, thanks.


Peace out,

Kordts