Axis History Forum

This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations and related topics hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research, Christoph Awender's WW2 day by dayand Christian Ankerstjerne’s Panzerworld.

Skip to content

If you found the forum useful please consider supporting us. You can also support us by buying books through the AHF Bookstore.

hellcat in europe?

Discussions on all aspects of the United States of America during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
Hosted by Carl Schwamberger.

hellcat in europe?

Postby james(jimmy)carson on 10 Jun 2005 02:01

It seems that luftwaffe pilots never had to fight against u.s f6f(hellcat) or f4u4(corsair)...is there any reasons?

thanks!
james(jimmy)carson
Member
Canada
 
Posts: 48
Joined: 08 Oct 2004 14:08
Location: terre-haute,indiana

Postby Tom Houlihan on 10 Jun 2005 02:33

In a nutshell, it's because they were both naval aircraft, and the bulk of both types were in the Pacific. By the time the Corsair was fielded, the Army Air Corps didn't need much help over the Continent.
User avatar
Tom Houlihan
Member
United States
 
Posts: 3041
Joined: 06 Oct 2002 05:53
Location: MI, USA

Postby Huck on 10 Jun 2005 03:48

RN operated some Hellcats in Europe, but they rarely met Luftwaffe's planes.
Anyway, Hellcat's performance was nothing to write home about.
Huck
Member
United States
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 12:52
Location: Detroit

Postby Larry D. on 10 Jun 2005 14:08

Operation DRAGOON, the invasion of southern France on 15 August 1944, included two carrier task groups:

TG 88.1 (British) with HMS Khedive, HMS Emperor, HMS Searcher, HMS Pursuer and HMS Attacker. These were all CVE's loaded with Wildcats, Hellcats and Seafires;
TG 88.2 (USN) with USS Tulagi, USS Kasaan Bay, HMS Hunter and HMS Stalker. Likewise, these were all CVE's loaded with Wildcats, Hellcats and Seafires.

Opposing them ashore was the Luftwaffe's Jagdgruppe 200 based at Aix-les-Milles and Avignon-East under Jagdfliegerführer Südfrankreich/5. Jagddivision (Luftfoltte 3) and equipped with Bf 109G's. Pilots from the Gruppe did engage Wildcats and Hellcats on several occasions according to all accounts, but the outcome is unknown to me. You could go to the Tony Wood Luftwaffe Claims web site and see if JG 200 pilots claimed any F4F's or F6F's during the invasion and the days immediately following it.
Larry D.
Financial supporter
United States
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Postby james(jimmy)carson on 10 Jun 2005 17:43

thanks for info,Larry!
james(jimmy)carson
Member
Canada
 
Posts: 48
Joined: 08 Oct 2004 14:08
Location: terre-haute,indiana

Postby Tiornu on 10 Jun 2005 18:26

You will also want to look into operations around Norway. Here and in Southern France, the Cats and Corsairs got the best of the LW planes they encountered, but the sampling is too small to support any conclusions.
Tiornu
Member
United States
 
Posts: 921
Joined: 20 Aug 2003 20:16
Location: NAmerica

Postby redcoat on 10 Jun 2005 19:37

Larry D. wrote:Operation DRAGOON, the invasion of southern France on 15 August 1944, included two carrier task groups:



Opposing them ashore was the Luftwaffe's Jagdgruppe 200 based at Aix-les-Milles and Avignon-East under Jagdfliegerführer Südfrankreich/5. Jagddivision (Luftfoltte 3) and equipped with Bf 109G's. Pilots from the Gruppe did engage Wildcats and Hellcats on several occasions according to all accounts, but the outcome is unknown to me. You could go to the Tony Wood Luftwaffe Claims web site and see if JG 200 pilots claimed any F4F's or F6F's during the invasion and the days immediately following it.

According to what little info I have on this subject, USN F6Fs shot down 8 German aircraft, for loss of 11 F6Fs(from all causes) during the operation.
User avatar
redcoat
Member
United Kingdom
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: 03 Mar 2003 21:54
Location: Stockport, England

Postby redcoat on 10 Jun 2005 19:49

Tiornu wrote:You will also want to look into operations around Norway. Here and in Southern France, the Cats and Corsairs got the best of the LW planes they encountered, but the sampling is too small to support any conclusions.

There was only one dogfight between RN Hellcats and Luftwaffe fighters over Norway, in which 2 aircraft of each side was lost.
Though the Corsair was used on a couple of escort missions during RN FAA attacks on the Tipitz, there were no combats between RN Corsairs and any Luftwaffe fighters.
User avatar
redcoat
Member
United Kingdom
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: 03 Mar 2003 21:54
Location: Stockport, England

Postby Larry D. on 10 Jun 2005 22:52

Good stuff, Redcoat. Did you get those figures from (David?) Brown's work on RN carriers in World War II? I tried to look up some stuff in Hafsten, Bjørn, Ulf Larsstuvold, Bjørn Olsen and Sten Stenersen, Flyalarm: Luftkrigen Over Norge 1939-1945 (Oslo, 1991), but the book has no index and it is exceedingly tedious to try and find anything since I do not comprehend Norwegian all that well. But the Hafsten book does have a chapter on each of the RN/FAA carrier strikes along the Norwegian coast.
Larry D.
Financial supporter
United States
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Postby BIGpanzer on 11 Jun 2005 00:26

AFAIK Grumman F4F Wildcat saw the first air combat on 25 December 1940 (as British Martlet, AA defence of Skapa-Flow and other British naval bases), when one of them shaked down German bomber Ju-88 near Skapa-Flow. Also British navy pilots used Wildcats quite intensive during the raids on "Tirpitz" (April 1944, Norway) and landing at Salerno (Sicilia, Italy), also in Atlantics, Mediterranian Sea during the whole WWII, escorting the bombers.

Grumman F6F Hellcats were used by British pilots in March 1944 during the raids on "Tirpitz" (North Norway) and they had several combats with German fighters. Since June 1944 Hellcats were used at Mediterranian Sea and in Normandy during the D-day landing and after.

Vought F4U Corsairs were used also in Atlantics, the first real combat in Europe for Corsairs was raid on "Tirpitz" (Norway, 3 April, 1944) - Corsairs from British "Victorious". Also they attacked "Tirpitz" and covered the bombers diring those raids in July-August.
User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Switzerland
 
Posts: 2809
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Postby Larry D. on 11 Jun 2005 13:01

The Tirpitz strike was at the beginning of April 1944 and was unopposed by the Luftwaffe, but there was opposition toward the end of the month:

Norway. A powerful Royal Navy carrier force consisting of HMS Victorious, Furious plus 4 escort carriers attacked the Tirpitz in Altafjord on 3 April (Operation “Tungsten”); 14 hits were scored on the battleship putting it out of service for three months at a cost of 4 of the attacking planes; the strike was unopposed by the Luftwaffe. On 26 April the same carrier force attacked a convoy assembly area at Bodø sinking 3 ships (Operation “Ridge Able”); 3 to 6 of the carrier planes were shot down by German fighters and Flak. A Bomber Command force of 51 Lancasters and 4 Mosquitos successfully bombed Oslo-Kjeller airfield knocking out an airframe production plant and aircraft overhaul facilities; there was no opposition from the Luftwaffe and no losses (28/29 Apr).
Larry D.
Financial supporter
United States
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Postby Andy H on 11 Jun 2005 14:54

Op Tungsten
14 Corsairs from 1834 & 1836Sqns from HMS Victorious
20 Hellcats from 800 & 804Sqns from HMS Emperor

These planes provided fighter cover plus softening up AA posistions. The Hellcats didn't bomb the Tirpitz on this raid. It seems that the Bf109Sqn assigned to the defence of the Tirpitz's had been delayed in it's return from Germany by bad-weather.

Op Mascot (17/07/44)
Several Corsairs & Hellcats took part again as fighter cover and straffing gun posistions

Op.Goodwood I & II (22/08/44)
12 Hellcats from 1840Sqn from HMS Indefatigable
30 Corsairs from 1841 & 1842 from HMS Formidable
The Hellcats attacked the Tirpitz with 500lb SAP bombs, claiming 1 hit. 1 Hellcat was lost.

6 Hellcats from 1840Sqn on HMS Indefatigable. 2 hits claimed.

In both attacks no actual hits were incurred by the Tirpitz

Op.Goodwood III (24/08/44)
24 Corsairs & 10 Hellcats

1 Hellcat reported a hit on Tirpitz's B Turret.
2 Hellcats and 3 Corsairs lost.

more to follow

Regards

Andy H
User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
United Kingdom
 
Posts: 13467
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:51
Location: UK and USA

Postby Larry D. on 11 Jun 2005 15:11

Operation Mascot
Norway. HMS Formidable, Indefatigable and Furious launch an unsuccessful carrier strike on the Tirpitz in Kaafjord on 17 July without encountering opposition from the Luftwaffe.

Operation Goodwood
Norway. HMS Indefatigable, Furious plus two escort carriers attacked shipping along the coast north of Bergen from 3 to 10 May damaging a minesweeper (Operations “Turbine” and “Offspring”); on 10 May the carrier planes hit the German airfield at Gossen and claimed 6 Bf 110s destroyed on the ground. Carrier aircraft from HMS Indefatigable, Furious and Formidable attack the Tirpitz in Kaafjord but are met by Bf 109s from JG 5 and a withering barrage of Flak, losing 11 planes without scoring any hits (22 Aug).
Larry D.
Financial supporter
United States
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Postby Andy H on 18 Jun 2005 18:25

Goodwood IV inc. 3 Hellcats (each with 1 500lb MC bomb) was launched on August 29th. Also 4 Hellcats were to attack in advance of the bombers (31 in all) and mark the Tirpitz with target indicators.

The Hellcats scored 1hit (I believe)

Andy H
User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
United Kingdom
 
Posts: 13467
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:51
Location: UK and USA

Postby Imad on 20 Jun 2005 17:24

Huck wrote:RN operated some Hellcats in Europe, but they rarely met Luftwaffe's planes.
Anyway, Hellcat's performance was nothing to write home about.

Are you serious? I have it from several sources that the Hellcat was the best single seater in the war after the P-51. Maybe you are confusing it with the Helldiver?
Imad
User avatar
Imad
Member
Canada
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 03:15
Location: Toronto

Next

Return to USA 1919-1945

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest