Oath???
Oath???
Greetings,
Im extremely confused about the following pictures...
The first picture is of the Croatian Muslim division "Handzar", while the following two are of a Croatian Domobran unit. What puzzles me is that the fingered salute/oath the soldiers are giving looks very similar to todays three-fingered Serbian war salute. What the oath stood for, why it was adopted and just how it differentiates to the Serbian salute of today would be greatly appreciated and less confusing!
Bog i Hrvati
Im extremely confused about the following pictures...
The first picture is of the Croatian Muslim division "Handzar", while the following two are of a Croatian Domobran unit. What puzzles me is that the fingered salute/oath the soldiers are giving looks very similar to todays three-fingered Serbian war salute. What the oath stood for, why it was adopted and just how it differentiates to the Serbian salute of today would be greatly appreciated and less confusing!
Bog i Hrvati
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- Zlatni ljiljan
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I don't think so, these uniforms are not Waffen-SS uniforms. Croatian shield on left arm is missing. These soldiers are probably from 369. Infant. Regiment or from 369./373./392. Division of Wehrmacht.The first picture is of the Croatian Muslim division "Handzar"
Serbs are Orthodox and they are crossing with three fingers. So, base of their three-fingered salute is maybe religious. And, three-fingered oath was probably some custom in NDH, look the Poglavnik, he is doing completely the same and his government too:What puzzles me is that the fingered salute/oath the soldiers are giving looks very similar to todays three-fingered Serbian war salute. What the oath stood for, why it was adopted and just how it differentiates to the Serbian salute of today would be greatly appreciated and less confusing!
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Zlatni Ljiljan,
Not sure wether the soldiers are of a Division of Wehrmacht, or the Handzar Divsion. I suppose the custom must not have only been used by Croatian Soldiers then?? The Poglavnik established a strict law on Croatia's Orthodox population within the NDH, if the Serbian salute is religously related, why adopt a three fingered salute??
Bog i Hrvati
Not sure wether the soldiers are of a Division of Wehrmacht, or the Handzar Divsion. I suppose the custom must not have only been used by Croatian Soldiers then?? The Poglavnik established a strict law on Croatia's Orthodox population within the NDH, if the Serbian salute is religously related, why adopt a three fingered salute??
Bog i Hrvati
- Zlatni ljiljan
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Hi, when I was in Serbia I was told by Serbians the three-fingered salute represents "Only Unity Can Save The Serbs". They were doing it often during the Yugoslav Civil war and they still do it today. I have also been told its called a "Serbian War Salute" or "Victory Salute".
The meaing of the salute is tied to the trinity of the Serbian Orthodox church. But some would say it has moved beyond religion to become a nationalistic, anti-Muslim salute. There are many stories of Serbians forcing Muslims to make the salute before they shot them.
A good example in America is the NBA player Divac. He made the salute sometimes and a few times it was made towards muslim NBA players. When the American media confronted him about it he said once "I know the soldiers did it, but that's not what it means to me."
The meaing of the salute is tied to the trinity of the Serbian Orthodox church. But some would say it has moved beyond religion to become a nationalistic, anti-Muslim salute. There are many stories of Serbians forcing Muslims to make the salute before they shot them.
A good example in America is the NBA player Divac. He made the salute sometimes and a few times it was made towards muslim NBA players. When the American media confronted him about it he said once "I know the soldiers did it, but that's not what it means to me."
- Lt.-Colonel
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- Canon in D
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Yugoslavia was a single nation under one name after 1929. One national flag, one currency.
starting in 1990 this single nation began to break apart. In 1992 it escalated into open warfare. Slovenians faught the JNA, so did Croatians & Bosnians.
This is the very definition of Civil War. The reasons for the Civil War may differ, but that is just arguing semantics. The justification is meaningless... A Civil War is simply a nation breaking into two or more parts under hostile and violent conditions. This is Yugoslavia 1990-1995. No different then the last few Civil Wars the world has seen - Eritrea, Somaliland, Turkish Cypriots, Rwanda. Sometimes the nations are broken apart, sometimes not. Sometimes it’s for religious, ethnic, nationalist, political reasons... that matters not. It's still a Civil War.
You can argue if the regions had the right to independence… That’s meaningless to the definition of a Civil War. The same definition would apply if Tibet fought against China for independence. Or Alaska against the USA, or Quebec against Canada… reasons are non important.
starting in 1990 this single nation began to break apart. In 1992 it escalated into open warfare. Slovenians faught the JNA, so did Croatians & Bosnians.
This is the very definition of Civil War. The reasons for the Civil War may differ, but that is just arguing semantics. The justification is meaningless... A Civil War is simply a nation breaking into two or more parts under hostile and violent conditions. This is Yugoslavia 1990-1995. No different then the last few Civil Wars the world has seen - Eritrea, Somaliland, Turkish Cypriots, Rwanda. Sometimes the nations are broken apart, sometimes not. Sometimes it’s for religious, ethnic, nationalist, political reasons... that matters not. It's still a Civil War.
You can argue if the regions had the right to independence… That’s meaningless to the definition of a Civil War. The same definition would apply if Tibet fought against China for independence. Or Alaska against the USA, or Quebec against Canada… reasons are non important.
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Now, you got it very, very wrong.
Yugoslavia was never a nation. Yugoslavia was constituted out of Macedonians, Montenegrins, Croats, Serbs, Slovenians and lots of minorities. In 1973 Tito recognized Bosnian muslims as a nation too. From 1919 to 1929 that frankenstein state was called Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca (Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians), and there wasn't any talks of YUGOSLAV nation! Montenegrins and Macedonias weren't left out of theat kingdom's name because of mistake, but on purpose, because Greater Serbian polititians denied those nations and wanted to include them into Serbian national corpus.
After the death of Josip Broz «Tito» a great differences among Yugoslavian Republics became obvious. The situation was the most tensed in Serbia, which was displeased with 1974 Constitution Amendments. Those Amendements declared regions of Kosovo and Vojvodina (which were a part of Federal Republic Serbia) as Autonomous Regions. It means that in Central Commitee of KPJ /Communist Party of Yugoslavia/, those autonomous regions had votes equal in "weight" to votes of "full" Republics.
Old Greater Serbian myths were brought back to life along with the idea that «all Serbs must live in one state». In 1987 Slobodan Milošević (Miloshevich) became the leader of Serbian Communists, but he soon degenerated into Greater Serbian war-chief. Since the Summer of 1988 he was organising massive protests in Serbia, so called «anti-buerocratic revolution». On those meetings they demanded Yugoslavia to be rearranged in the way Serbia wanted - into strong centralized communist dictatorship.
With strong political pressure Serbia managed to abrogate the autonomies of Kosovo and Vojvodina, and to install pro-Serbian leadership in Montenegro. That way Serbia ensured the support of that Republic and of both Autonomous Regions in Federal institutions and tried to impose her stanpoints to the other Republics.
Slovenia and Croatia, who demanded that Yugoslavia must be re-arranged into confederacy, were first to be impengemented. Belgrade was particulary interested in creating anti-Croatian frame of mind among Serbian minority in Croatia. After the free democratic elections in Croatia in the Spring of 1990 the rebelion of Serbian minority commenced, strongly backed-up by JNA.
Situation was much better for Slovenia because she was placed in the west of YU and she was never included into plans for the Greater Serbia. JNA threw a "little war" against Slovenia when she declared suspension of relations with YU June of 1991 in accordance with vox populi, as stated on national referendum. It lasted a week and it was fought half-heartedly by the JNA - they let Slovenia go.
The aggression on Croatia commenced almost the same moment when the people of Croatia voted for the independance of Yugoslavia on national referendum -75% of voters used their right to vote, and 94% of them wanted to break connections with YU. The referendum was held on 19th May 1991. On June 25th Croatian Sabor (Parliament) declared independance, soverginity and suspension of all relationships with Yugoslavia and that was possible due to 1974 Amendements of YU Constitution.
So it wasn't a Civil War, but the agression of one sovereign state on the other sovereign state(s).
The fact that Croatian Serbs helped so called Yugoslavia in that foul adventure changes nothing. It only made them traitors of sovereign Republic of Croatia.
Yugoslavia was never a nation. Yugoslavia was constituted out of Macedonians, Montenegrins, Croats, Serbs, Slovenians and lots of minorities. In 1973 Tito recognized Bosnian muslims as a nation too. From 1919 to 1929 that frankenstein state was called Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca (Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians), and there wasn't any talks of YUGOSLAV nation! Montenegrins and Macedonias weren't left out of theat kingdom's name because of mistake, but on purpose, because Greater Serbian polititians denied those nations and wanted to include them into Serbian national corpus.
After the death of Josip Broz «Tito» a great differences among Yugoslavian Republics became obvious. The situation was the most tensed in Serbia, which was displeased with 1974 Constitution Amendments. Those Amendements declared regions of Kosovo and Vojvodina (which were a part of Federal Republic Serbia) as Autonomous Regions. It means that in Central Commitee of KPJ /Communist Party of Yugoslavia/, those autonomous regions had votes equal in "weight" to votes of "full" Republics.
Old Greater Serbian myths were brought back to life along with the idea that «all Serbs must live in one state». In 1987 Slobodan Milošević (Miloshevich) became the leader of Serbian Communists, but he soon degenerated into Greater Serbian war-chief. Since the Summer of 1988 he was organising massive protests in Serbia, so called «anti-buerocratic revolution». On those meetings they demanded Yugoslavia to be rearranged in the way Serbia wanted - into strong centralized communist dictatorship.
With strong political pressure Serbia managed to abrogate the autonomies of Kosovo and Vojvodina, and to install pro-Serbian leadership in Montenegro. That way Serbia ensured the support of that Republic and of both Autonomous Regions in Federal institutions and tried to impose her stanpoints to the other Republics.
Slovenia and Croatia, who demanded that Yugoslavia must be re-arranged into confederacy, were first to be impengemented. Belgrade was particulary interested in creating anti-Croatian frame of mind among Serbian minority in Croatia. After the free democratic elections in Croatia in the Spring of 1990 the rebelion of Serbian minority commenced, strongly backed-up by JNA.
Situation was much better for Slovenia because she was placed in the west of YU and she was never included into plans for the Greater Serbia. JNA threw a "little war" against Slovenia when she declared suspension of relations with YU June of 1991 in accordance with vox populi, as stated on national referendum. It lasted a week and it was fought half-heartedly by the JNA - they let Slovenia go.
The aggression on Croatia commenced almost the same moment when the people of Croatia voted for the independance of Yugoslavia on national referendum -75% of voters used their right to vote, and 94% of them wanted to break connections with YU. The referendum was held on 19th May 1991. On June 25th Croatian Sabor (Parliament) declared independance, soverginity and suspension of all relationships with Yugoslavia and that was possible due to 1974 Amendements of YU Constitution.
So it wasn't a Civil War, but the agression of one sovereign state on the other sovereign state(s).
The fact that Croatian Serbs helped so called Yugoslavia in that foul adventure changes nothing. It only made them traitors of sovereign Republic of Croatia.
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- Allen Milcic
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Good day gentlemen:
Let's leave the definition of the 1991-1995 war in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia for an area of the Forum dedicated to this time period. Thank you.
As for the position of the hand/fingers used during the taking of the oath by NDH soldiers and politicians, it is my understanding that the three fingers represent the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the absence of a Bible to swear an oath on. The position of the fingers is different than the three-fingered salute used by nationalist Serbs, though the basis in the Christian faith is the same.
Zlatni Ljiljan:
I believe you are mistaken when indentifying the soldiers as "369. Infant. Regiment or from 369./373./392. Division of Wehrmacht". Look at the sleeve eagle, worn by Waffen SS troops; the Heer had the eagle above the breast pocket. I believe this photo is of the first contingent of "Handschar" troops, and that the Croatian armshield was added to the uniforms later (after the training in Villefranche). I note that a majority of troops are giving their oath with hands over their hearts - I believe these are the Muslim members, while the Catholic members use the raised hand with the 3 fingers.
Best regards,
Allen/
Let's leave the definition of the 1991-1995 war in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia for an area of the Forum dedicated to this time period. Thank you.
As for the position of the hand/fingers used during the taking of the oath by NDH soldiers and politicians, it is my understanding that the three fingers represent the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the absence of a Bible to swear an oath on. The position of the fingers is different than the three-fingered salute used by nationalist Serbs, though the basis in the Christian faith is the same.
Zlatni Ljiljan:
I believe you are mistaken when indentifying the soldiers as "369. Infant. Regiment or from 369./373./392. Division of Wehrmacht". Look at the sleeve eagle, worn by Waffen SS troops; the Heer had the eagle above the breast pocket. I believe this photo is of the first contingent of "Handschar" troops, and that the Croatian armshield was added to the uniforms later (after the training in Villefranche). I note that a majority of troops are giving their oath with hands over their hearts - I believe these are the Muslim members, while the Catholic members use the raised hand with the 3 fingers.
Best regards,
Allen/
- Zlatni ljiljan
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Hi, AllenAllen Milcic wrote:I believe you are mistaken when indentifying the soldiers as "369. Infant. Regiment or from 369./373./392. Division of Wehrmacht". Look at the sleeve eagle, worn by Waffen SS troops; the Heer had the eagle above the breast pocket. (...) I note that a majority of troops are giving their oath with hands over their hearts - I believe these are the Muslim members, while the Catholic members use the raised hand with the 3 fingers.
I totally overlooked this! Thanks for your information and correction.
Regards,
/Dino.
Hello, everyone.
First of all, this "three fingers" sign is not at all Serbian sign.
As far as i know, it was used for the first time (as Serbian sign)
by Serbian politician and very strange character Vuk Drašković in '90.
This sign was used during catholic (army) oaths.
I have exellent photo, taken between two world wars,
which shows fine example of two signs used by
catholic and orthodox members of old Yugoslav army;
catholics held 3 fingers separated and orthodox soldiers joined them.
You can see what i'm refering to in next photos:
First two show orthodox Serbian volunteers and Cossacks (2nd photo) taking oath with 3 fingers joined.
Third one shows catholic Danish SS volunteers taking oath with 3 fingers separated.
So it is not just some Serbian or Croatian sign at all.
It is christian (catholic) Holy Trinity sign used by all (christian) countries.
I have also seen photos of German (WH) soldiers holding the same (catholic) sign.
photo-sources:
1st - magazine "Pogledi"
2nd - "Große Geschichte des Dritten Reichs und des Zweiten Weltkriegs"
3rd - Freikorps Danmark documentary
Cheers,
Ivan
First of all, this "three fingers" sign is not at all Serbian sign.
As far as i know, it was used for the first time (as Serbian sign)
by Serbian politician and very strange character Vuk Drašković in '90.
This sign was used during catholic (army) oaths.
I have exellent photo, taken between two world wars,
which shows fine example of two signs used by
catholic and orthodox members of old Yugoslav army;
catholics held 3 fingers separated and orthodox soldiers joined them.
You can see what i'm refering to in next photos:
First two show orthodox Serbian volunteers and Cossacks (2nd photo) taking oath with 3 fingers joined.
Third one shows catholic Danish SS volunteers taking oath with 3 fingers separated.
So it is not just some Serbian or Croatian sign at all.
It is christian (catholic) Holy Trinity sign used by all (christian) countries.
I have also seen photos of German (WH) soldiers holding the same (catholic) sign.
photo-sources:
1st - magazine "Pogledi"
2nd - "Große Geschichte des Dritten Reichs und des Zweiten Weltkriegs"
3rd - Freikorps Danmark documentary
Cheers,
Ivan
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Last edited by Ivan Ž. on 06 Jul 2005, 17:46, edited 2 times in total.
- Steen Ammentorp
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I would like to mention that Danes generally is Lutheran Protestants though of course I have no knowledge of these two in particular.Third one shows catholic Danish SS volunteers taking oath with 3 fingers separated.
The three finger sign is well known in various connections. It is i.e. known from both the scout salute as the image shows and the polish salute, which I was unable to find a picture of.
Kind Regards
Steen Ammentorp
The Generals of World War II
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