German Technolgy superior in 'most' cases

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Huck
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German Technolgy superior in 'most' cases

#1

Post by Huck » 24 Jul 2005, 00:22

Split from RAF Strategic Bombinghttp://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81817
Mark V wrote:Hi Huck.

Sorry i dont have time today to counter all your claims.
You don't need to do that, just wait for Hop's furious denial of reality.
Mark V wrote:I just want to comment your last post which seem a bit near-sighted. And BTW. You admitted that you can not objectively discuss about weaponry of Germany during WW2, by the statement that i was able to extract from you...
Huck wrote: I'm sorry, but this is a stupid remark. German technology was superior then,
No it was not. Germans did had weapons superior in spesific areas, but that was not over the field, and in many areas Germans were forced to rely on weapons that were inferior to weaponry their enemies had.
The remark that I termed "stupid" was this:
Mark V wrote:I know that to you everything German is superior, but calm down a bit.
As for the German wartime technology, I was just stating the obvious, it was superior to Allied military technology in most areas, like American military technology is today. It needed not be superior in all areas and was not.

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Andy H
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#2

Post by Andy H » 24 Jul 2005, 00:57

Huck wrote:
As for the German wartime technology, I was just stating the obvious, it was superior to Allied military technology in most areas
That's a very all encompassing statement given the myriad of technologies involved in war fighting during WW2. So its not that obvious.

Anyway as I said earlier lets not get diverted from the thread theme. To that end I'll split this off into a new thread

Andy H


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#3

Post by Panzermahn » 24 Jul 2005, 10:01

Andy H wrote:Huck wrote:
As for the German wartime technology, I was just stating the obvious, it was superior to Allied military technology in most areas
That's a very all encompassing statement given the myriad of technologies involved in war fighting during WW2. So its not that obvious.

Anyway as I said earlier lets not get diverted from the thread theme. To that end I'll split this off into a new thread

Andy H
It was known, even to the Allies themselves, the German technology were quite superior to whatever the Allies had used. There were some cases that during the German-American battles of North Africa, Tunisia in 1942-1943, American field officers' reports about the superiority of German weapons especially high-velocity anti-tank weapons and not forgetting the Panther and tiger tanks were suppressed and hushed up by the American High Command because it was deemed to could have lower the fighting morale of American troops if it were released publicly.

Regards
Panzermahn

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Qvist
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#4

Post by Qvist » 24 Jul 2005, 10:24

Huck: That German technology was generally superior is not "the obvious". They certainly had a technological lead in some areas, but it is equally well-known that they were technologically eclipsed by their opponents in other fields - nuclear research, radar, the proximity fuse and ASDIC being just some of the examples that spring to mind.

If we are to have a discussion about whose technology was superior, I'd rather it started from a recognition of the fact that this was not a one-sided state of affairs.


cheers

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Andy H
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#5

Post by Andy H » 24 Jul 2005, 12:16

It was known, even to the Allies themselves, the German technology were quite superior to whatever the Allies had used
Oh please, get past this generalisation otherwise this debate will go nowhere

Andy H

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#6

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Jul 2005, 19:53

Panzermahn wrote:There were some cases that during the German-American battles of North Africa, Tunisia in 1942-1943, American field officers' reports about the superiority of German weapons especially high-velocity anti-tank weapons and not forgetting the Panther and tiger tanks were suppressed and hushed up by the American High Command

They must have been pretty good at hushing it up because to date no details about these mystery Panthers in North Afrika have ever been released!

Also from http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tiger/index.html


"German Heavy Tank -- PzKw 6" from Tactical and Technical Trends
An early U.S. report on the German heavy Tiger tank, PzKw. 6, from Tactical and Technical Trends, May 6, 1943. The Tiger tank was first encountered by Allied troops in North Africa in late 1942. The same diagrams were repeated in the article "New German Heavy Tank" in the June 1943 issue of Intelligence Bulletin.
[Editor's Note: The following article is wartime information on enemy equipment published for Allied soldiers. More accurate data on German weapons and equipment is available in postwar publications.]



GERMAN HEAVY TANK -- PzKw 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This tank has already been described in Tactical and Technical Trends (No. 20, p. 7). The accompanying sketch of the tank is based on photographs of a PzKw 6 knocked out on the Tunisian front.

The suspension system, which has only very briefly been described in Tactical and Technical Trends, is shown in the sketch below. The track is made of metal. To the far right in the sketch is the front-drive sprocket and to the far left, the rear Idler. There are no return rollers since the track rides on top of the Christie-type wheels, which are rubber rimmed. It will be noted that there are eight axles, each with three wheels to a side, or each with one single and one double wheel to a side. There are thus 24 wheels, or 8 single wheels and 8 double wheels, on each side of the tank. The system of overlapping is similar to the suspension system used on German half-tracks.




The tank is provided with two tracks, a wide one (2 ft, 4.5 in) and a narrow one (just under 2 ft). The wide track is the one used in battle, the narrow being for administrative marches and where maneuverability and economy of operation take precedence over ground pressure. The dotted line in the sketch of the suspension system indicates the outer edge of the narrow track. When the narrow track is used, the eight wheels outside the dotted line can be removed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Hmm yes seems like they kept that quite as well!

Panzermahn you should stick to turgid posts about obscure Tibetan/Chinese Jews who served in the great anti Bolshevik struggle.

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#7

Post by Panzermahn » 25 Jul 2005, 09:37

Qvist wrote:Huck: That German technology was generally superior is not "the obvious". They certainly had a technological lead in some areas, but it is equally well-known that they were technologically eclipsed by their opponents in other fields - nuclear research, radar, the proximity fuse and ASDIC being just some of the examples that spring to mind.

If we are to have a discussion about whose technology was superior, I'd rather it started from a recognition of the fact that this was not a one-sided state of affairs.


cheers
If German techonology is not as superior as you think it is, why the rush of Allied forces into retrieving German specialists, engineers and technicians together with the Reich's weapons' technology in 1945? We know the even between the Western Allies, the british and the Americans were racing and competing against each other to retrieve the best of German technology. But i see no such thing as the Allies racing to get Hungarian or Slovakian military technology

It was unfortunate that German Jewish scientists were forced to leave Germany as a result of the actions of the racialist factions of the Nazi party. If not, Germany would have the atomic bomb and Russia would be defeated.

In fact, the Allies were quite worry about the developments of the Nazi atomic bomb that it is deemed vital by the British to send their commandos to attack the only heavy water plant in the world located at Norway. The greatest importance for the mission to attack the heavy water plant no matter what the cost indicates that during the early years of the war, German atomic research were quite on par or even ahead of its Allied counterparts and it is quite amazing considering the Germany was pressed on several fronts.

Don't forget the Germans manufactured the best infantry weapons in WW2 such as the MG-42, best anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapon such as the 88mm PAK and FLAK, the first generation of smart bombs such as HS-293 and Fritz X glider bomb which sank the Italian battleship Roma in 1943

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#8

Post by richardrli » 25 Jul 2005, 10:03

Is that the best you can do Panzermahn? :roll:

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Qvist
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#9

Post by Qvist » 25 Jul 2005, 10:09

If German techonology is not as superior as you think it is, why the rush of Allied forces into retrieving German specialists, engineers and technicians together with the Reich's weapons' technology in 1945? We know the even between the Western Allies, the british and the Americans were racing and competing against each other to retrieve the best of German technology.
And how does this demonstrate that German technology was generally superior in all areas?

It was unfortunate that German Jewish scientists were forced to leave Germany as a result of the actions of the racialist factions of the Nazi party. If not, Germany would have the atomic bomb and Russia would be defeated.
There was a non-racialist faction of the nazi party?
In fact, the Allies were quite worry about the developments of the Nazi atomic bomb that it is deemed vital by the British to send their commandos to attack the only heavy water plant in the world located at Norway. The greatest importance for the mission to attack the heavy water plant no matter what the cost indicates that during the early years of the war, German atomic research were quite on par or even ahead of its Allied counterparts and it is quite amazing considering the Germany was pressed on several fronts.

Don't forget the Germans manufactured the best infantry weapons in WW2 such as the MG-42, best anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapon such as the 88mm PAK and FLAK, the first generation of smart bombs such as HS-293 and Fritz X glider bomb which sank the Italian battleship Roma in 1943
I haven't forgotten. And the allies invented the nuclear bomb, ASW systems that literally blew the U-boat campaign out of the water despite the considerable advances made in sub technology by the Germans, Radar that far eclipsed anything the Germans had, and so on and so on. Which means that where technology is concerned, the issue of superiority is not one-sided.

What I am asking is perfectly simple and perfectly reasonable: Try to take all the facts into account if you really have to have a discussion about who was technologically superior. Because this thread, whose lease on life is of a probationary nature, will get locked the minute it devolves into a shouting match.

cheers

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#10

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Jul 2005, 10:12

Panzermahn wrote: It was unfortunate that German Jewish scientists were forced to leave Germany as a result of the actions of the racialist factions of the Nazi party. If not, Germany would have the atomic bomb and Russia would be defeated.

Racialist factions? Where there any non racialist factions?

One of the areas that Germany failed miserably in was in her code system. Throughout the war her most secret communications were routinely read by the Allies.

Panther looks mighty similar to a T34 to me........

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#11

Post by Panzermahn » 25 Jul 2005, 10:23

Michael Kenny wrote:
Panzermahn wrote: It was unfortunate that German Jewish scientists were forced to leave Germany as a result of the actions of the racialist factions of the Nazi party. If not, Germany would have the atomic bomb and Russia would be defeated.

Racialist factions? Where there any non racialist factions?

One of the areas that Germany failed miserably in was in her code system. Throughout the war her most secret communications were routinely read by the Allies.

Panther looks mighty similar to a T34 to me........
Yes, there are non-racialist factions of the Nazi party. For example, the economist ones like Dr. Hjalmar Schact and freebooter types like Goering and oppurtunists like Oskar Schindler or even good Nazis (sounds unbelievable? Believe it!) like John Rabe or Albert Bormann

Regards
Panzermahn

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#12

Post by Mark V » 25 Jul 2005, 10:54

Panzermahn wrote:
If German techonology is not as superior as you think it is, why the rush of Allied forces into retrieving German specialists, engineers and technicians together with the Reich's weapons' technology in 1945? We know the even between the Western Allies, the british and the Americans were racing and competing against each other to retrieve the best of German technology. But i see no such thing as the Allies racing to get Hungarian or Slovakian military technology
Hi,

Lets take an mind-game:

Somehow (somekind of death-ray :wink: ) Germans were available to conquer United States:

I am sure that similar frantic search and hoarding of US technology would had happened in places like Berkeley, Argonne, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, Hanford, Fort Detrick, NRL in Washington DC, Cambridge Mass, Aberdeen Proving Ground, Wilmington, Commerce City COL, Williamsburg NY, etc, etc, etc.......

BTW. The catch would had been FAR bigger too....


Mark V


EDITED: voluntarily removed some lines that were not exactly on-topic.
Last edited by Mark V on 25 Jul 2005, 11:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Qvist
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#13

Post by Qvist » 25 Jul 2005, 10:57

Panzermahn, it is in my honest opinion absolutely ridiculuous to suggest that there were non-racialist factions within the nazi party. In any case, this is not the topic of this thread. If you want to go on discussing it, please start a new thread.

Two off-topic posts referring to the issue were deleted, and the only reason your last post isn't is that both I and Michael Kenny challenged your original contention. Let's stay on topic, everyone.


cheers

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#14

Post by 20/20 vision » 25 Jul 2005, 11:24

i think alot of german weaponary to be superior simply because of the situation they were faced with.

prior to mid 1942 alot of german materail was not superior, but tactically they were superior, once their advantage of surprise and the nature of there circumstances overan them, they had to developed superior weaponary than their enemies or faced being overwhelmed quickly.

often a combataitve nation that is on the defence will produce or bring forward new designs out of necessity..ie the british spitfire russian t-34 etc and those who are in the dominant position will stick with what is tried and tested and still does the job.

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#15

Post by Michael Emrys » 25 Jul 2005, 12:08

Panzermahn wrote:It was unfortunate that German Jewish scientists were forced to leave Germany as a result of the actions of the racialist factions of the Nazi party. If not, Germany would have the atomic bomb and Russia would be defeated.

In fact, the Allies were quite worry about the developments of the Nazi atomic bomb that it is deemed vital by the British to send their commandos to attack the only heavy water plant in the world located at Norway. The greatest importance for the mission to attack the heavy water plant no matter what the cost indicates that during the early years of the war, German atomic research were quite on par or even ahead of its Allied counterparts and it is quite amazing considering the Germany was pressed on several fronts.
This is all quite false. Certainly the Germans never did themselves a favor by brutalizing the Jewish people, but even if they had not, they still were extremely unlikely to produce a bomb under wartime conditions. The Manhattan Project was a huge, expensive industrial undertaking that Germany could not have duplicated while still continuing to manufacture conventional weapons of war. Having all the heavy water in the world would not have changed that either.

The Allies went to considerable lengths to attack the source of heavy water simply because they could not be sure at the time what exactly the Germans were capable of and there was no sense in leaving any 't' uncrossed or an 'i' undotted.

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