Wielun

[Sam H.]

Anyone have access to any documents or action reports from the Luftwaffe concerning their raid on Wielun, Poland on September 1, 1939?

thanks in advance

[Larry D.]

This is the only reference to Wielun I can find. The bombers under Luftflotte 4 were all used against Polish airfields on 1 September. The information regarding the cavalry brigade headquarters for I.u.II./St.G. 77 may or may not have been in or near Wielun, although AOK 10 attacked directly toward Wielun and Lodz.

I./St.G. 2

1 Sep 39: based at Nieder-Ellguth in Silesia, under 2.Fliegerdivision/Luftflotte 4 with 38 Ju 87B and 3 Do 17P bombers that were used mainly for reconnaissance and transport duties. On the first day of the Polish campaign, it struck the airfield at Krakow and possibly also that of Katowitz (Katowice) and Wadowice/38 km SW of Krakow, then attacked cavalry near Wielun/111 km N of Katowice.

I. und II./St.G. 77
1 Sep 39: Neudorf with 39 Ju 87Bs and 3 Dornier Do 17Ps each. On the opening day of the campaign, bombed and annihilated a Polish cavalry brigade headquarters while supporting the initial assault of 10.Armee Panzer spearheads. Many of the crews flew 4 and 5 combat missions this date.

--Larry

[Molobo]

The report is falsified then or misleading.
There were no military units in Wielun.The city itself was bombed, with pilots strafing civilians and bombing the hospital.

http://www.polandembassy.org/News/Biule ... -09-02.htm

President marks 65th anniversary of WW2 start in Wielun

Wielun, Sept. 1: "The total war, which did not make a difference between civilians and soldiers and whose aim was mass extermination became a reality on September 1, 1939,". President Aleksander Kwasniewski said these words during ceremonies marking the 65th anniversary of the start of World War II in Wielun, the first town to be bombed by Nazi warplanes on Sept. 1, 1939. On September 1, 1939 in Wielun the Nazis broke the Geneva conventions bombing a town and a hospital, which had a red cross sign on it. The attack killed nearly 1,200 people and the town was destroyed in 75 percent, the president said. President Kwasniewski recalled that Poland was the first country invaded by Hitler as Poland was the first to oppose the expansion of fascism. The president stressed that Poland owed much to its defenders and added that it was impossible to repay the debt as it was impossible to return them the lost years, to make the dead live and to change the history of their lives. President Kwasniewski also recalled thousands of Polish officers and soldiers murdered in Katyn, Mednoye and Khrakov. "Poland has become today sovereign and secure and our western neighbours have been today our allies and friends," the President said. He stressed that for the first time in the 1,000-year history Poland and Germany have been connected by such strong ties, as the two countries are NATO and EU members. According to the president without reconciliation and partnership co-operation it would be impossible to make dreams of a united Europe come true.

See also :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=59053

szopen
It was done here before, and there were opinions that bombing Wielun was not war crime because it wasn't, and that pilots were not strafing civilians because it would be absurd.

Here is the site in German:

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/10/0,187 ... 22,00.html
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/21/0,187 ... 77,00.html

I don't know German, so I've used the free translator to read it.
Therefore i won't post it fragments except this one:

"Marianna Dybek erinnernt themselves exactly: "after the first bombing the airplanes sank and circled at low altitude over the city, very low. I saw even the faces of the pilots and then they shot out of machine guns."

The rest of the article contains Otto Schmidt, the only living pilot testimony that they were ordered to target the city, not some specific military targets; they were to destroy the place.
That it started effectively during peace, since it was before Germany officialy started war with Poland. That destruction of Wielun and terror bombing was planned before start of the war. The German historian Bohler opinion that the attack targeted specifically civilian population.

Here you have some pictures of tha atrocitity Luftwaffe made :
http://www.historiawielunia.uni.lodz.pl/1wrzesnia2.html

[Larry D.]

According to the 2004 ZDF article, it was the Stukas from St.G. 77 based at Neudorf that bombed Wielun. My information came from:

SMITH, Peter C. Stuka Squadron: Stukagruppe 77 – The Luftwaffe’s ‘Fire Brigade’. Wellingborough (Northamptonshire), 1990.

I guess the documents the author (Smith) checked and the St.G. 77 veterans he interviewed conveniently failed to mention the annihilation of Wielun.

--Larry

[Sam H.]

Excellent resources, thanks

[Jan-Hendrik]

Well , the mentioned ZDF-Report in the TV-Magazine "Frontal21" ...

Dr.Horst Boog of MGFA showed here :

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv04/404yy50.htm

that this report was not wort a penny !


Jan-Hendrik

[Larry D.]

J-H:

I see what you mean! I have great, great respect for Horst Boog. He is THE formost authority (expert) on the history of the Luftwaffe during World War II and is widely recognized as such by the academic community the world over. Americans have a special fondness for him because he is a graduate of Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire.

He really is critical of the editors at ZDF, accusing them of intentionally spreading disinformation in an effort to discredit anything and anyone from the NS period. If what he says is true, then the government should open a legal case against ZDF.

Sam H. should read the article because it completely contradicts what Molobo said in his post. It comes down to whether or not there were Polish troops in Wielun or not. The Germans believed there were and had solid evidence to support that belief, while the Poles claim there weren't. Did the Polish troops depart the town during the heavy morning fog, or were they still there when the German air attack began later in the day? If the Polish troops had left, and the German didn't know about it, are they still guilty of bombing a town that had no military targets?

--Larry

[Molobo]

The forum is in english, please translate the source.

Here is a picture of Wielun hospital before the bombing :
http://www.historiawielunia.uni.lodz.pl ... zeniem.jpg
After the bombing :
http://www.historiawielunia.uni.lodz.pl ... zczony.jpg

. The Germans believed there were and had solid evidence to support that belief, while the Poles claim there weren't. Did the Polish troops depart the town during the heavy morning fog, or were they still there when the German air attack began later in the day? If the Polish troops had left, and the German didn't know about it, are they still guilty of bombing a town that had no military targets?

The Germans bombed a marked hospital.They also strafed civilians.The bombing were made several times, so the Luftwaffe pilots had much time to see that there waren't any military units.They also concentrated on bombing civilian buildings.
Similar atrocity was conducted by Luftwaffe in Frampol, so this wasn't an single accident.
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm

13 September 1939, the town of Frampol , with a population of 3000, and without military or industrial targets, nor any Polish Army defenders, was practically annihiliated by Luftwaffe bombing practice. In the opinion of Luftwaffe analyst Harry Hohnewald: "Frampol was chosen as an experimental object, because test bombers, flying at low speed, weren't endangered by AA fire. Also, the centrally placed town hall was an ideal orientation point for the crews. We watched possibility of orientation after visible signs, and also the size of village, what guranteed that bombs neverthless fall down on Frampol. From one side it should make easier the note of probe, from second side it should confirm the efficiency of used bombs." (after Wolfgang Schreyer's book "Eyes on the sky.")

I suggest you read :
Olejnik T., Wieluń – polska Guernica, das polnische Guernica, Wieluń 2004.

He is THE formost authority (expert)

I read the article-although I would like an english translation.For an authority he doesn't seem to care much about witnesses dismising them at hand, claiming they must have "terrible memories" and shouldn't be considered.That is rather an strange aproach for supposed historian.He dismisses photos of Wielun, for no appearant reason, and claims Luftwaffe wanted to spare civilians in air war from what i understood-an obvious falsfication considering the acts of strafing civilians and bombing of Frampol(which he doesn't mention at all).He accuses British of starting terror bombing, again forgetting Frampol.
He also seems to use a very emotional language:

like it, mu?e seems to be brought to the masochistischen, almost paranoid German spirit of the time which can be called again a victim, as it k?lich with both, high-decorated flighter pilot-upper Werner M?ers (JF 22/04), respected in all world, and walter Nowotny happened, because they thought patriotically and member in the Hitler Youth and/or the Angeh?ger of the Legion CONDOR

Seems that in regard to terror bombing he has a very personal agenda and isn't willing to use witnesses and events that conflict his personal beliefs.

If the Polish troops had left, and the German didn't know about it, are they still guilty of bombing a town that had no military targets?

The bombing started at 4.35, it continued till 14.They had time to know if any military units were still present.Furthermore the bombing included bombing of marked hospital and strafing of civilians.It also concentrated itself on civilan buildings.75 % of the city without any military units, defence or industry was destroyed.Here is how it looked like:
http://www.historiawielunia.uni.lodz.pl/ruiny.jpg

[Jan-Hendrik]

Dear Molobo ,

whom do I believe more ? A well known specialist for air warfare in WW2 or some internet resources ?

And for translating , well , dear friend , you gave often enough links to sources ONLY in polish language , OK ? I have no problems to read & understand polish , so I never told something about that ,,,

Jan-Hendrik

[Molobo]

whom do I believe more ? A well known specialist for air warfare in WW2 or some internet resources ?

Whom do I believe more.Dozens of historians taking into account witnesses, photos and documents or histeric German profesor accusing British and USA of terror bombing, while at the same time dismissing out of hand all witnessess, photos and forgeting Frampol, while bragging about patriotism of German Reich soldiers ? Like said before he seems to have a personal agenda regarding the issue of terror bombing.

And for translating , well , dear friend , you gave often enough links to sources ONLY in polish language , OK ? I have no problems to read & understand polish , so I never told something about that ,,,

You need to read Polish language to see photos I provided ? If I would provide text I would give translation.The links I gave were about photos of destroyed Wielun.

[Larry D.]

I'm with you, Jan-Hendrik. Dr. Boog is a thorough, objective and very distinguished air historian who has been invited to the United States many times to speak before assembled groups of USAF officers and other professionals. He has authored a number of outstanding books and a large number of articles in academic journals (i.e., Militärgeschichtliches Mitteilungen, usw.), both in German and English. The man is highly trusted on both sides of the Atlantic. To my knowledge, he has never once been accused of bias, falsification, disinformation or arriving at incorrect conclusions by anyone in the academic community. All of his books have been reviewed by the U.S. Air Force Office of History, the Air University at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama and by other acclaimed authors of major research works on the Luftwaffe, such as Willianson Murray. He is a professional historian of unbounded respect. That's good enough for me.

--Larry

[Molobo]

He is a professional historian of unbounded respect.

Who dismisses out of hand all witnesses that he doesn't want to hear, and doesn't know about Frampol.Not to mention his claim that Luftwaffe was concerned about Polish population-which is simply put absurd.

[Larry D.]

He is a professional historian of unbounded respect.

Who dismisses out of hand all witnesses that he doesn't want to hear, and doesn't know about Frampol.Not to mention his claim that Luftwaffe was concerned about Polish population-which is simply put absurd.

His article was written to refute the ZDF story. The ZDF story did not mention Frampol, so there was no need for Dr. Boog to address the subject. I am confident that Dr. Boog was aware of Frampol. The issue wasn't about Frampol, but rather about Wielun.

[Molobo]

His article was written to refute the ZDF story. The ZDF story did not mention Frampol, so there was no need for Dr. Boog to address the subject. I am confident that Dr. Boog was aware of Frampol. The issue wasn't about Frampol, but rather about Wielun.

You are incorrect.In the article Boog claims Luftwaffe cared for civilian population and he accusess the British and USA of starting terror bombing in 1942.Which is wrong if one knows about the Frampol.Therefore he either choosed to ignore it for his own personal reasons(as he chose to dismiss witnesess out of hand) or he is unaware of the atrocity.

[Larry D.]

Therefore he either choosed to ignore it for his own personal reasons(as he chose to dismiss witnesess out of hand) or he is unaware of the atrocity.

If that is your position, then there is no point in discussing the matter any further.