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Soviet vs. German losses in WWII

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.

Postby Andreas on 02 Oct 2005 21:59

Deine-Zukunft wrote:Finnish casualties in continuation war 52 554 dead
wounded 161 217


red army
karelian front: dead 220 621 wounded 437415 altogether 658 036
Leningrad front dead 467 524 wounded 1 287 373 altogether 1 754 897
Fronts alltogether 2 412 933


As Kunikov points out, that is not a correct comparison. Quite apart from the fact that Leningrad front was fighting against the German 18. Armee, there were also German units fighting with the Finnish army, and their losses would have to be included.

All the best

Andreas
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Postby Deine-Zukunft on 02 Oct 2005 22:21

I got these numbers from http://www.susi1.net/forum_viewtopic.php?12.1115Its a finnish warhistory forum but im not registered there.These guys seem to be quite experts.I dont have got better source but i have read some books and some of these numbers are in my head.What i have read,tells me,that it is quite clear that over 1 million russian troops died in finnish front against finns(not germans).Yes,i think you have got better numbers but your russian and im finnish so both of us tries to draw to home.Im not trying to tell that russian soldier is not so good as finnish soldier when i said that 1 finnish soldier matched against 14 russian soldiers.Reason for that is simply Stalin and his merciless orders,Not a step back.http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html.Russian soldiers were very brave and i feel sympathy for what they had to face though comissars were pure devils.But if you deny the fact that russians lost over 1 million soldiers to Finland,you are wrong.Many,many,many historians have point out this what i have stated.I dont want to start quarrel about this thing and i admit that you are right about those ratios and your maths and other thingies but the unthinkable fact is that little Finland consumed over 1 million russian soldiers and thats a fact, period
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Postby Kunikov on 02 Oct 2005 22:32

Deine-Zukunft wrote:I got these numbers from http://www.susi1.net/forum_viewtopic.php?12.1115Its a finnish warhistory forum but im not registered there.These guys seem to be quite experts.I dont have got better source but i have read some books and some of these numbers are in my head.What i have read,tells me,that it is quite clear that over 1 million russian troops died in finnish front against finns(not germans).Yes,i think you have got better numbers but your russian and im finnish so both of us tries to draw to home.Im not trying to tell that russian soldier is not so good as finnish soldier when i said that 1 finnish soldier matched against 14 russian soldiers.Reason for that is simply Stalin and his merciless orders,Not a step back.http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html.Russian soldiers were very brave and i feel sympathy for what they had to face though comissars were pure devils.But if you deny the fact that russians lost over 1 million soldiers to Finland,you are wrong.Many,many,many historians have point out this what i have stated.I dont want to start quarrel about this thing and i admit that you are right about those ratios and your maths and other thingies but the unthinkable fact is that little Finland consumed over 1 million russian soldiers and thats a fact, period


Well, from the numbers you've presented, again, they do not correspond with the numbers I've presented. You are assuming that the Soviet forces in those two fronts faced only Finnish forces, but that isn't true. The number of 1 million is too much, even counting the winter war. Also, not all commissars were 'pure devils' that depended, many soldiers respected their commissars, one of the most famous is Popel, who raided behind German lines in 1941 and escaped back to Red Army lines.
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Postby Andreas on 02 Oct 2005 22:38

Deine-Zukunft wrote:and thats a fact, period


Famous last words. Some German formations (163, 169 ID, 6 SS Mountain) were so closely intertwined with the Finnish army that I seriously doubt it was possible to divide them out, and I doubt anyone attempted this.

Also, read Kunikov's post again. If your supposed experts include the whole casualties of Leningrad Front to get to their 1m Soviet casualties, they are just plain wrong.


So much for the facts.

Finally, a word on attitude - if you feel that your nationality prevents you from participating in serious discussions, don't do it. To bring nationality into this is not acceptable. I hope both of these points are clear.


All the best

Andreas
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Postby Deine-Zukunft on 02 Oct 2005 22:55

Hey guys dont take it so seriously :D

I know that Kunikov knows much more that i do so it would be plain stupid to continue arguing with him.And i know that he knows every division and every armygroup location and location timing better than me so i dont say nothing about those things but i would like to hear or see from Kunikov how much did the soviets lost against finns(accurately particularly finns no germans at all).

Thank you
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Postby Kunikov on 02 Oct 2005 22:55

Polyarnoe/Karelia defensive operation 29 June-10 October 1941
KIA 67,265 Medical Casualties (MC from now on) 68,448
Vyborg-Petrozavodsk offensive operation 10 June - 9 Aug 1944
KIA 32,674 MC 72,701
Petsamo-Kirkenes offensive operation 7-29 Oct. 1944
KIA 6,048 MC 15,149

Truthfully, I'd say only these three operations took place against a majority of Finnish troops, and as you can see, the KIA is a bit over 100,000. 1941 was a bad year all around, so that would explain the large KIA, if you will notice, as the war progressed the MC to KIA went to the usual 3:1 ratio, or close to it.
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Postby Deine-Zukunft on 02 Oct 2005 22:58

Could you tell your source and are you really sure about that.
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Postby Kunikov on 02 Oct 2005 23:01

Deine-Zukunft wrote:Could you tell your source and are you really sure about that.


Of course I'm not sure, the source would be Krivosheev's work which Erickson uses, the numbers came out of "Barbarossa" by Erickson, I can look through Krivosheev's book as well if it means that much to you, but I doubt there will be a great difference. As I pointed out earlier, and so did Andreas, there is no way to really distinguish which soldier died from a German bullet or artillery/mortar round and a Finnish one.
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Postby Andreas on 02 Oct 2005 23:04

Kunikov wrote:Truthfully, I'd say only these three operations took place against a majority of Finnish troops, and as you can see, the KIA is a bit over 100,000. 1941 was a bad year all around, so that would explain the large KIA, if you will notice, as the war progressed the MC to KIA went to the usual 3:1 ratio, or close to it.


Qvist (who I am sure will be along shortly) has pointed out elsewhere that a significant number of casualties were incurred outside specific operations. I am not sure about the ratio, but it was a lot. Assuming this pattern also applies on the Finnish front, Soviet KIA casualties would be considerably higher than 100,000.

All the best

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Postby Deine-Zukunft on 02 Oct 2005 23:04

And btw,do you have exact numbers of participants in the battle of tali-ihantala?Just curious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala
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Postby Kunikov on 02 Oct 2005 23:09

Deine-Zukunft wrote:And btw,do you have exact numbers of participants in the battle of tali-ihantala?Just curious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala


The operation listed for those dates, mainly from June 26th until August 9th 1944 had 16,924 KIA from the Karelian front.
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Postby Kunikov on 02 Oct 2005 23:12

Andreas wrote:
Kunikov wrote:Truthfully, I'd say only these three operations took place against a majority of Finnish troops, and as you can see, the KIA is a bit over 100,000. 1941 was a bad year all around, so that would explain the large KIA, if you will notice, as the war progressed the MC to KIA went to the usual 3:1 ratio, or close to it.


Qvist (who I am sure will be along shortly) has pointed out elsewhere that a significant number of casualties were incurred outside specific operations. I am not sure about the ratio, but it was a lot. Assuming this pattern also applies on the Finnish front, Soviet KIA casualties would be considerably higher than 100,000.

All the best

Andreas


Not at all sure what you mean, can you explain?
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Postby Deine-Zukunft on 02 Oct 2005 23:18

And what about russian casualties from the same period.The invasion of vyborg or viipuri was only and only reason of finnish frightness and cowardness,there would had been great possibility to remain in vyborg.This has been told many times here in docs.What if Finland would have sustained vyborg.Would that had changed the soviet plans.Ok i know, out of topic and i stop here.

thank you
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Postby Kunikov on 02 Oct 2005 23:21

Deine-Zukunft wrote:And what about russian casualties from the same period.The invasion of vyborg or viipuri was only and only reason of finnish frightness and cowardness,there would had been great possibility to remain in vyborg.This has been told many times here in docs.What if Finland would have sustained vyborg.Would that had changed the soviet plans.Ok i know, out of topic and i stop here.

thank you


It is part of the same operation, troops from the Leningrad front might have participated in it, in which case the Leningrad front suffered in all 6,018 KIA.
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Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 02 Oct 2005 23:24

Andreas wrote:
Kunikov wrote:Truthfully, I'd say only these three operations took place against a majority of Finnish troops, and as you can see, the KIA is a bit over 100,000. 1941 was a bad year all around, so that would explain the large KIA, if you will notice, as the war progressed the MC to KIA went to the usual 3:1 ratio, or close to it.


Qvist (who I am sure will be along shortly) has pointed out elsewhere that a significant number of casualties were incurred outside specific operations. I am not sure about the ratio, but it was a lot. Assuming this pattern also applies on the Finnish front, Soviet KIA casualties would be considerably higher than 100,000.

All the best

Andreas
we are talking casualties –we are thinking “Qvist”; we are talking “Qvist “ we are thinking casualties; :D
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